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82 mm mortar rounds killing tanks? - 3/7/2001 1:36:00 AM

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When playing last night one of the final battles of the "Watchword Freedom" campaign - btw, compliments for this challenging one to Mr. Wilder - one Panther and one StugIV were killed by top hits from 82 mm mortar shells. Now, I know that 150 mm arty can do that; but I never saw it done by mortar shells. Also, several of my units were hit 8 or 9 times at once by the same mortars, reducing them to 99 suppression. Note that it was a nightfight with 3 hexes of visibility, and I myself wasn't able to achieve such an accuracy with my mortars - to say it all, I didn't even on sunny days ;-). I guess that maybe there where some russian FO's out there, which I wasn't able to spot, but being hit that hard seemed a little to much to me. Maybe someone out there can give me some feedback on that. (This is not a complaint, and sorry if this argument was treated before). AC

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- 3/7/2001 2:15:00 AM

halstein

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Tanks usually have rather thin top-armour, so a 82-mm mortar round hitting the tank-top, could quite well destroy the tank, with a bit of (bad) luck. ------------------ Halstein

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- 3/7/2001 2:20:00 AM

k�nigstiger

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i had the same problem in this scenario battle, two of my panthers were knocked out by 82mm top hits... seems that this was a bug in this scenario..

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- 3/7/2001 2:41:00 AM

Tommy

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While it is probable that if an 81mm mortar top hits a tank, it will immobilize or destroy it, the probability of a hit on a moving tank must be close to zero. AI mortars seem to be way to successful in hitting AFV's. See Mike's link on infantry AT weapons and skip down to the mortar section. The Germans gave up using it as an AT weapon due to the low prob. of a hit. Click here for Mike's link Tommy [This message has been edited by Tommy (edited March 06, 2001).]

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- 3/7/2001 2:42:00 AM

murx

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I dont think it's a bug ... a 81mm or 3" mortar are meanies. They pack a real good punch. And if the crew is unlucky and has one or both hatches open the airshock alone can kill the crew. 150mm arty will shred a tank, a direct hit will leave a smoldering wreck. A near miss will tear off all external attached equipment including antennae and probably seriously damage any tracks. Even today NEVER get your tank into an arty barrage. Either back off or get through it as ffast as possible - dont stop !!! murx

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- 3/7/2001 3:28:00 AM

madflava13

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When that sort of thing happens to me, I just pretend the exhaust system or some other critical part of the tank got trashed.. If my tank was filling up with exhaust because of a mortar hit, I might unass it too... Thats just how I justify these casualities though. ------------------ "The Paraguayan request for subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

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- 3/7/2001 3:32:00 AM

Greg McCarty

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quote:

Originally posted by AC: When playing last night one of the final battles of the "Watchword Freedom" campaign - btw, compliments for this challenging one to Mr. Wilder - one Panther and one StugIV were killed by top hits from 82 mm mortar shells. Now, I know that 150 mm arty can do that; but I never saw it done by mortar shells. Also, several of my units were hit 8 or 9 times at once by the same mortars, reducing them to 99 suppression. Note that it was a nightfight with 3 hexes of visibility, and I myself wasn't able to achieve such an accuracy with my mortars - to say it all, I didn't even on sunny days ;-). I guess that maybe there where some russian FO's out there, which I wasn't able to spot, but being hit that hard seemed a little to much to me. Maybe someone out there can give me some feedback on that. (This is not a complaint, and sorry if this argument was treated before). AC

I rarely kill MBTs with 82mm tubes, but they are hell on open top vehicles and light tanks as well. I wont hesitate to use them on any afv at range just for their fire suppression ability alone. In addition a stout hit on an MBT with one of these may not do any damage, but it can cause it to go buttoned; and to me, thats always a benefit. ------------------ Greg. 37 mill AA... can suddenly ruin your day.

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- 3/7/2001 4:57:00 AM

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quote:

Originally posted by k�nigstiger: i had the same problem in this scenario battle, two of my panthers were knocked out by 82mm top hits... seems that this was a bug in this scenario..

So I will consider myself a lucky guy, since I lost only one Panther! AC

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- 3/7/2001 5:33:00 AM

timc

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Once upon a time, in another life, I was umpiring a miniatures wargame at Fort Benning. The Red player had to roll a twelve with two dice to get a hit on a tank with a mortar. He did. Then he had to roll another twelve to kill the tank. He did that, too. The Blue player was furious and kept arguing about the odds of killing a tank with a mortar. Yep, maybe about the same as the odds of rolling two consecutive twelves.

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- 3/7/2001 1:43:00 PM

Igor

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In a long generated campaign I'm running through (communist Chinese), I'm capturing Japanese tanks to the tune of 2-4 a battle by chasing out their crews with 50mm mortars (then killing the crew). Sure, Japanese tanks are a joke; but a 50mm grenade is rather weak to be inflicting damage. Of course, my next action is to tell the next cavalry squad down the list "Time to learn to drive, Comrades!". At this rate, I'll have a battalion of those toys by 1934...

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- 3/8/2001 8:42:00 PM

Tommy

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Could it be that this AFV killing with mortars is out of whack because the game uses the hit probability of the mortar vs infantry, and applies it to the AFV? For example, if a 81mm mortar lands anywhere in a circle 25M in radius around a squad, it's a hit. (I don't have a clue as to the hit radius used by SPWAW; any help SPWAW guys??). That's an area of 2,000 sq M. An AFV 3M by 10M (top hits only, width x Length) is an area of 300 sq M. We might be talking of kill probabilities 7 to 10 times smaller. This assumes that every top hit is a kill. So, SPWAW guys; do you take into account the much smaller kill zone for an AFV (ie, a direct hit on a "point" target) versus a large kill zone, area target that the infantry presents? Tommy

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- 3/8/2001 11:52:00 PM

Guardian

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Related to last post: What are the kill zones for artillery pieces? I mean 25 m radius for 81 mm mortar sounds a bit too low for me. 100 or 150 metres SAFE radius was told to me in army (dont remember which one). That makes kill zone to be at least 50 metres (I think. maybe more). So anybody knows for sure?

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- 3/9/2001 1:05:00 AM

USMCGrunt

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quote:

Originally posted by Guardian: Related to last post: What are the kill zones for artillery pieces? I mean 25 m radius for 81 mm mortar sounds a bit too low for me. 100 or 150 metres SAFE radius was told to me in army (dont remember which one). That makes kill zone to be at least 50 metres (I think. maybe more). So anybody knows for sure?

Guardian, usually the safe radius is used in training or as a guideline. This takes into account such things as rounds dropping short. The effective casualty radius is usually lower. If I remember correctly, the casualty radius for the 81mm mortar using he was around 20m - 25m, but I'ld have to dig out my old BST/EST book to check. ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

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- 3/9/2001 2:38:00 AM

Guardian

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Ok. So how many hexes does artillery affect in game? (casualties/suppression) I have rarely seen 155mm batteries killing anyone outside the hex where shells landed. But after all I havent played very much. PS. I read from one book in army that safe range for heavy artillery is 400m (in war situation assault) and my mind is saing that somebody said/I read from somewhere that 155 shell would kill at least up to 150m. Might have been even 250m. But I am not sure at all about last part.

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- 3/9/2001 12:06:00 PM

Warrior

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I dont't know about anybody else, but I REGULARLY target tanks with 81mm mortars. I've gotten a lot of kills that way.

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- 3/9/2001 12:28:00 PM

Paul Vebber

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If the warhead size is 6 or higher there is a chance of killing something one hex away, at 9 there is a chance of killing 2 hexes away, and at 12 3 hexes away. Those are the minimum threasholds and moving up one level is where one expects to regularly see kills at that range - so 9 warhead size should kill 1 hex away fairly often, 12 warhead size to kill 2 hexes away. WW2 tanks were vulnerable to mortars and cases abound where mortars either set tanks spare fuel on fire, killed an exposed crewmember, otherwise just chased them off because they weren't sure what was shooting at them.

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- 3/9/2001 2:08:00 PM

Pack Rat

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quote:

Originally posted by Guardian: Ok. So how many hexes does artillery affect in game? (casualties/suppression) I have rarely seen 155mm batteries killing anyone outside the hex where shells landed. But after all I havent played very much. .

Play a little more. 155mm (and other types) kills in hexes next to the actual hit are common. Suppression is the real killer because if you can't rally to move them and your oppenent is artillery wise, they keep it coming. Smoke will cut the visabilty and it's hard to continue a barrage when you can't actually see the enemy anymore. But do some continued fire anyway cause they're still there. The supression radius depends on the type of gun/rocket doing the firing. So what ever it is, it's too damn big if you're on the recieving end.

------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/

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- 3/9/2001 2:25:00 PM

Pack Rat

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The little I saw of mortar fire actually scared the bejeesus out of me. I came to the very rude awakening that what we had they had. I volunteered on a night fire with the Vulcan to help fire some mortar rounds for illumination, that was fun

. However at another range we had set up with two hulks down range. Strange noise from over head and two perfect air bursts over the targets. No one said a damn thing about any mortars. Granted the targets weren't moving and I'm sure they had the coordinates locked down. These dudes were very good at what they did and let me tell you what it was a real eye opener. ------------------ PR http://electricwar.tripod.com/

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- 3/14/2001 4:53:00 AM

K_Tiger

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Hmmm.. think..80mm mortar fire will do nothing to a tank...maybe if you land it direktly on the top (engine) of a ligth tank..PzIII and compared vehikles. Also real Arty 150mm...musst put the bullets near the targets to become an affect. Its only hard pressed air...and the penetraing rating decreased rapidly if the bullet land more than 10 meters away. And second..the blast goes in all directions...not really (like at-weapons) onto on part of a vehicle. Nothing to say, that the compartment like antennas and other outside parts would be damaged or destroyd. The other thing i do not like...is the Tankcrew morale...if i would sit in a tank. may like the real guys....i have no time to make me thinking about the incoming mortar shells...i try to survife..and shooting at other tanks and inf. If..the real crews...did so like in spwaw...the tank div. would not reach further than the polish boarder...remember..the russians hade plenty of mortars and arty. I saw a dukumentation about the "Panzertruppe" they gave them "MDMA"..i hope you all know what i mean.. ;)...you would find it today in..extasy...the partydrug...."after 48 hours of figthing and driving"..."without resting the tankdriver died on his places".."true this sort of drugs". With MDMA in my blood...you could shoot with V2 Rockets at me..i then..open up my hatch...and you will see the third finger of my rigth hand..hehe

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- 3/14/2001 6:56:00 AM

CaptainBrian

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quote:

Originally posted by Guardian: Ok. I read from one book in army that safe range for heavy artillery is 400m (in war situation assault) and my mind is saing that somebody said/I read from somewhere that 155 shell would kill at least up to 150m. Might have been even 250m. But I am not sure at all about last part.

Here are the ECR (estimated casualty radius) are as follows: 60mm: 30 Meters 81mm: 35 Meters 105mm: 40 Meters 120mm: 40 Meters 5": 45 Meters 155mm: 50 Meters 8": 80 Meters These are just estimates, used for planning purposes. I know 155mm frag can go out to 200 meters.

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- 3/14/2001 1:46:00 PM

murx

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Re: K_Tiger & tanks under arty 1. If the crew doesnt close fast enough the hatches the airblast/pressure will have some effect on the crew. 2. The structural integrity of the tank could be severly damaged through shock, like fixing the turret in a position. 3. The Winkelspiegel (?periskope?) and viewing slots are open so blast/splinters, heat and smoke can get into the tank. 4. A tank can be tossed to the side or throw his tracks due to the immediate loss of ground contact if it drives into a crater (because the tank hadn't stopped) or the explosion happens to be next to the tank creating a crater right next/under the tank. A destroyed tank doesn't mean it's a smoldering wreck - it just means that it cant be used at the moment (at least the crew thinks so). And believe me arty - even if you are IN a tank - isn't nice. I was in a tank simulator in my army time and was under 'simulated arty' - meaning speakers positioned in the simulator replayed the sound of the arty-music as loud as they could. We (the crew) knew exactly that we were under no danger but communication was very hard - give and receive orders was nearly impossible cause we couldn't hear them - and thus we felt the stress/suppression. Now mix it with the REAL danger of incoming shells... As tankers we learned that - if caught under arty - we either push through as fast as possible or retreat as fast as possible to get out of harms way. Sure nowadays tank-commanders will act immediately without orders but I guess in WWII most soldiers will FIRST get their orders and act then - so suppression does not mean they are terrorized only but that they aren't commanded/disorganized, not knowing what to do next. murx

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- 3/16/2001 12:59:00 AM

JTGEN

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OK Captain Brian where are those ECR numbers from. The ones told us in the artillery were longer and I have previously said in this forum that 155mm has a kill radius of 150m and that goes also to the 130mm artillery that I am more familiar with. Allthough It depends on what kind of detonators are used. If it detonates in the air the kill radius against infartry is offcourse longer than if it detonates when it hits the ground. I have not encountered as many kills with artillery against tanks as I expected. I used a lot of 210mm art against tanks in SP2 and it affected my tactics. To my knowledge heavy artillery destroyed a lot of T34's in Finland in 44'. But not in this game. The thinner top armour should really make tanks vulnerable to arty, and maybe to 80mm mortars. I know a mortar shell carries more explosives than same sized arty shell but maybe the speed of it does not give it enogh penetrating velolity against armour.

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- 3/16/2001 7:58:00 AM

CaptainBrian

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JTGEN, The ECR's come from U.S. technical manuals. Not trying to insult anyone's intelligence but this is what I am using as a definition of ECR: The ECR is the radius that 50% of the effects of a point detonating munition will cover under standard conditions. I have no doubt that frag from a 130mm shell will burst out to 150m. Also, I know airburst fused shells will have greater effects upon many types of targets. Also, the ECRs are used as the distance between the aimpoints for individual howitzers in order to ensure some overlap of their fire and coverage of the target with no gaps in the sheath. Believe you me, I want to be nowhere near live artillery impacts. I was at the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center at 29 Palms California this past week. Looking at the size of the frags from arty, I remembered why I like being on the firing rather the receiving end !

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- 3/17/2001 1:02:00 PM

USMCGrunt

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quote:

Originally posted by CaptainBrian: Believe you me, I want to be nowhere near live artillery impacts. I was at the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center at 29 Palms California this past week. Looking at the size of the frags from arty, I remembered why I like being on the firing rather the receiving end !

Ahhhhh.... 29 Stumps, my old stomping ground. You're right CaptBrian, I spent many a CAX out at Camp Wilson, and I can safely say, I don't want to be within a mile of 155 arty, much less within 150 meters. I was on the receiving end of Iraqi 122mm in Desert Storm and it definately had a way of ruining your day.

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- 3/17/2001 1:56:00 PM

Pack Rat

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quote:

Originally posted by JTGEN: I have not encountered as many kills with artillery against tanks as I expected. I used a lot of 210mm art against tanks in SP2 and it affected my tactics. To my knowledge heavy artillery destroyed a lot of T34's in Finland in 44'. But not in this game. .

I think Paul made a statement to the effect that artillery vs armor, with the default on, was on the down side of effectivness. I haven't played with it other than the default. It would be interesting for "old timers" from the earlier games to see what the setting might be put to for old SP results. I hate to suggest it for my pbem games because I use German rockets and they are pretty effective as is. :)

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- 3/17/2001 2:14:00 PM

Hammer2000

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In simple words : I HATE ARTY :D visit the best forum in the world : www.loftboard.de

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- 3/22/2001 9:54:00 PM

JTGEN

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OK CaptainBrian. The range differences are difference on what way we think of the effects. The effects certainly are interesting. I could easily see the splashes of our 130mm ammunitions hitting sea 15km's away, even without using eyeglases that I use when shooting forexample. It is wery powerful sight to see, and I would not like to be a marine on the other end. We would hit normal landing craft from 10km quite easily and if they would get close the airbursting grenades would make life a hell in an open landingcraft. And with 130mm you do not even have to hit the target.

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- 5/18/2001 5:45:00 PM

K G von Martinez

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Just reading Artillery in the Desert (see the 88mm Flak-diskussion) there is an interesting statement on page 31: "Indirect 25-pounder fire is, however, not effective for stopping tank attacks, but in can cause the tanks to "button up" their hatches". If even the heavier 25-pounder shell is not effective, I very much dought that a mortar shell will be better. May be a lucky hit say 1 : 1000?

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- 5/18/2001 8:28:00 PM

Alexandra

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quote:

Originally posted by kgvm: Just reading Artillery in the Desert (see the 88mm Flak-diskussion) there is an interesting statement on page 31: "Indirect 25-pounder fire is, however, not effective for stopping tank attacks, but in can cause the tanks to "button up" their hatches". If even the heavier 25-pounder shell is not effective, I very much dought that a mortar shell will be better. May be a lucky hit say 1 : 1000?

Here's the difference. We'll use UK weapons for both parts of this example. The 25#s are heavy arty, say, oh, a battery of the Royal Horse Artillery. They're probably a good distance from the fight, we'd call them off board for SPWAW, and so the odds of a direct tank hit are, indeed, low. However, they can strip the infantry support away and supress tanks. However, the 3 inch battaltion, and 2 inch company mortars, are, in all likelhood, right on the battle field and can see the tanks, and, so have higher chances to hit them on that vulnerable top armor because the gunners can see the tank's movements and make adjustments. In my own SPWAW experience, I've rarely seen a mortar kill on a tank that wasn't direct fire. But direct fire mortars are often tank killers. Alex

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- 5/19/2001 2:39:00 AM

fontenoy

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Just an observation gentlemen. Speaking purely in terms of the game itself,you just can't beat the German "Wurfrahmen"rocket artillery for destroying tanks,especially when they are bunched together as the computer AI tends to do.The American P-47D "Thunderbolt"dropping napalm is equally effective.It even destroys tanks in adjacent hexes.Merely my two cents worth on useful anti-tank weapons in the game. Regards, Fontenoy. "It is well that war is so terrible,or we should become too fond of it." Robert E.Lee,Battle of Fredericksburg,Dec.1862.

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