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Some thoughts on reliability - 1/2/2014 4:23:09 PM   
Friedrich

 

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Joined: 3/18/2010
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Hello,

here are some thoughts on reliability:

A 79% R&D reliability for the Apollo capsule is pretty low and not very logical. Mercury and Gemini can reach above 90% although Apollo is improved and more advanced. I think the opposite would be right: Apollo is based on the experience with the older designs and should be able to reach a 90+ R&D reliability, but Mercury as the first capsule should be less reliable (maybe about 85% due to R&D). The other problem is the fact, that a combination of two components with only 79% (Apollo and the LM) is a frustrating way to the moon because of the high risk of mission failures. So I would give the LM a maximum R&D reliability of about 85%.

For the same reason I would suggest a slightly increase of the maximum R&D reliability for the Gemini direct ascent components (on the other hand there should be a kind of penalty for the player not to go with the more complex Apollo program).

In general the maximum R&D reliability should be higher after a mission failure to reflect the technical improvements made for the new version of the hardware. At least it should be possible to regain the actual reliability that I have reached by successful missions before the failure occurred.

My last point seems to be a graphical bug: The mission animations for the Gemini direct ascent show two astronauts on the moon but one of the two guys should stay in the capsule.
Post #: 1
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/3/2014 12:16:33 PM   
CowboyRonin


Posts: 360
Joined: 8/14/2009
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Your comments have been forwarded to the developers.

_____________________________

Matrix forum liaison to Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager team
WitW/WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Friedrich)
Post #: 2
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/3/2014 3:13:13 PM   
Nacho84

 

Posts: 706
Joined: 2/7/2013
From: Brighton, UK
Status: offline
Hello Friedrich,

Many thanks for your input. The max reliability of the lunar hardware has been increased, you will get the changes in today's patch (0.7.12).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Friedrich
In general the maximum R&D reliability should be higher after a mission failure to reflect the technical improvements made for the new version of the hardware. At least it should be possible to regain the actual reliability that I have reached by successful missions before the failure occurred.


This is a very nice approach. I'll see if I can fit it on next week's patch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Friedrich
My last point seems to be a graphical bug: The mission animations for the Gemini direct ascent show two astronauts on the moon but one of the two guys should stay in the capsule.


I'm not sure about this one. Why do you say that one needs to stay in the spacecraft? I can understand that for an EVA in Earth orbit, but why would you leave one guy inside in a Moon landing?

Cheers,


_____________________________

Ignacio Liverotti
Lead Developer of Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager
Polar Motion

www.polar-motion.com
spm.slitherine.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/PolarMotion

(in reply to Friedrich)
Post #: 3
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/3/2014 5:40:31 PM   
Friedrich

 

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Joined: 3/18/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nacho84

I´m not sure about this one. Why do you say that one needs to stay in the spacecraft? I can understand that for an EVA in Earth orbit, but why would you leave one guy inside in a Moon landing?

Cheers,



Hello Nacho84,

maybe I am misunderstanding the mission description but I think the Gemini landing module can carry only one astronaut to the surface of the moon. So the other astronaut has to stay in the capsule. In addition to this, I guess it´s always necessary to have one man inside the caspule because he must perform some mission operations (i.e. it is not possible to left the capsule unmanned - see the historical manned moon missions).

btw: I like the game very much and I played it a hundred times so far. Nice to see the campaign mode in the next update...

(in reply to Nacho84)
Post #: 4
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/3/2014 11:53:03 PM   
Nacho84

 

Posts: 706
Joined: 2/7/2013
From: Brighton, UK
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Hello Friedrich,

The Gemini Moon landing mission is based on the Gemini Direct Ascent mission (see this link for more information). The idea is that the whole Gemini spacecraft landed on the Moon and, just like the LEM in the Apollo missions, both astronauts would step out of the vehicle and walk on the lunar surface. Obviously this mission is just hypothetical, but I don't think there's a reason to keep a member of the crew inside the Gemini spacecraft while the other is walking on the Moon.

Maybe you're confusing this mission with the Gemini LOR, which uses a light lunar lander?

Cheers,

_____________________________

Ignacio Liverotti
Lead Developer of Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager
Polar Motion

www.polar-motion.com
spm.slitherine.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/PolarMotion

(in reply to Friedrich)
Post #: 5
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/4/2014 5:18:13 PM   
Friedrich

 

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Hello Nacho84,

you are right. Sorry, I thought there was something like a single lunar lander in the Gemini Direct Ascent mission configuration so that the capsule would remain in the lunar orbit (like the CSM in the historical Apollo missions).

(in reply to Nacho84)
Post #: 6
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/8/2014 5:05:55 AM   
stilicho410

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 4/16/2012
Status: offline
I posted these some of these thoughts in a general 0.78 thread last month, but I thought I would repeat them here since it is a thread specifically about reliability. CowboyRonin already logged the suggestions below, but perhaps others may have additional thoughts.

- The reliability improvement from successful flights has been seriously downgraded sometime over the last few builds. When I first started playing with 0.74, it only took a few flights to bridge the gap between "Max R&D Reliability" and "Max Reliability" as you generally got a couple of percentage points each flight. 0.7.12, the reliability increase for a successful flight is either 0% or a fraction of 1%, which means one will likely never get Max Reliability. I think the reliability increase back in 0.74 was more realistic; for example there were only 2 unmanned Gemini flights before they started sending up crews.

- Meanwhile the reliability hits for unsuccessful missions are far more severe with the current model. In BARIS, one only got reliability hits when somone got killed, otherwise even a single successful mission step would get some reliability gain. I think BARIS reflected history well in that respect; as telemetry from a problematic mission would provide valuable information for the next flight.

Consider these examples of aborted missions from the same time period:
-- Gemini 8: Near fatal situation with stuck thruster, but crew survived. Gemini 9 launched just 3 months later.
-- Apollo Fire: Can't be reflected in current game mechanics, as it didn't take place during a flight. However, I expect "Random Events" will be added sometime, in which Astronauts can be killed in accidents, and reliability hits (or bonuses) could happen.
-- Apollo 6: Unmanned Saturn V/Apollo test, problems with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd stage caused abort of translunar injection of unmanned Apollo spacecraft. However, the information gained from this flight was invaluable in readying the Saturn V for Apollo 8 eight months later.
-- Apollo 13: Well, that would equate to a moderate reliability hit in-game, with Apollo 14 not being launched until 10 months later. However, no unmanned test flights were required, and with the extra oxygen tank and other improvements, I think the Apollo 14 spacecraft was MORE reliable than Apollo 13. This could be nicely implemented as Friedrich suggested, with Max R&D reliability increased to the new level gained by flights.



_____________________________

Thanks,
Stilicho

(in reply to Friedrich)
Post #: 7
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/17/2014 5:35:53 PM   
stilicho410

 

Posts: 65
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This turned out to be a very long post, so I'll summarize my suggestions right at the start.
1. The "diminishing returns" R&D model could be fine-tuned a bit to be slightly less asymptotic.
2. The reliability gains from successful mission should be increased to what they were in BARIS and the first few BASPM builds, perhaps 1-2%.
3. Revert to the BARIS system of only inflicting reliability penalties when people are killed. Otherwise, if any steps succeed for a component, apply a reliability gain.

I'm sure there are a variety of opinions, but I find the "diminishing returns" formula for R&D very dispiriting, especially for the later model rockets.
I started researching the Saturn 1B in Q1.1968 with 4 researchers with Skills ranging from 96 to 93. I didn't reach Max R&D reliability until Q4.1971.

I started researching the Saturn V around Q1.1969 with 4 researchers with Skills initially ranging from 93 to 90, later 96 to 93.
At Q4.1971, I was still 5.4% away from Max R&D reliability, and the increments were down to 1%.
The Saturn V finally reached Max R&D reliability in Q1.1973, and that was with the help of 6 successfull missions I launched after it got to 89%.

I realize that historical development of the Saturn rockets lasted many years, but historically they started around 1960 with the first unmanned Saturn 1B test in Feb 1966; with the current game mechanics there is no way a player would be able to start that soon.

Back around version 0.74, I thought perhaps the diminishing R&D returns was to make the players consider launching unmanned tests before Max R&D, as reliability increases for successful missions in 0.74 generally ran a couple percent. That made some sense, there comes a point where you'd gain more from an actual test rather than more R&D. I think that reflected history fairly well; by my count, there were just 2 unmanned Gemini/Titan launches, 2 unmanned Apollo CSM/Saturn 1B launches, and 2 unmanned Apollo CSM/Saturn V launches.

However, the last several versions have shifted to giving a fraction of a percent for successful missions, too. The current reliability model is starting to look like an asymptotic curve, where "Max Reliability" will never be reached.

BARIS gave a flat 1% improvement for successful missions. BASPM could be more flexible, giving maybe 1% to earlier spacecraft/boosters like the Mercury program, and 2% for later generations like Gemini and Apollo. I think that would give a more historical rate of progression. I think it would also improve gamer enjoyment; After running the risk of a launch, I found it very dispiriting to only get a fraction of a percent.

I already mentioned this upthread, but I still submit that for Reliability decreases, the BARIS model of only inflicting them when people got killed, and giving a reliability gain when any mission steps succeeded, worked better both historically and for gameplay. Here are some additional thoughts:

1. Currently when launching a unmanned test mission, one is balancing an infinitesimal gain vs a 20% penalty, which under the diminishing returns R&D model will take literally years to make up. The only incentive is to avoid the reliability penalty of a skipped mission configuration, so there's no reason to do more than one unmanned test of any given type.

2. Historically, they often launched at least a couple of any given type of unmanned probe for redunancy. (Pioneer 10 and 11; Viking 1 and 2, etc). Currently, there is no gain from doing this within BASPM, if you send 2 Pioneers to Jupiter and 1 fails, the remaining will get a big reliability hit and likely fail, too.

_____________________________

Thanks,
Stilicho

(in reply to stilicho410)
Post #: 8
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/17/2014 9:13:39 PM   
Nacho84

 

Posts: 706
Joined: 2/7/2013
From: Brighton, UK
Status: offline
Hello Stilicho,

These are all valid points. I'm going to Epsom next Friday to visit Slitherine's HQ and we'll definitely discuss all this stuff with Iain. The code is pretty much there, we just need to tweak certain things in order for the system to make more sense. I'll keep you posted, but don't expect changes in order to address this stuff until 0.7.16.

Cheers,

_____________________________

Ignacio Liverotti
Lead Developer of Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager
Polar Motion

www.polar-motion.com
spm.slitherine.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/PolarMotion

(in reply to stilicho410)
Post #: 9
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/18/2014 5:37:30 PM   
stilicho410

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 4/16/2012
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Thanks for your quick reply! The game is improving with every build, and the development team has been most responsive.

_____________________________

Thanks,
Stilicho

(in reply to Nacho84)
Post #: 10
RE: Some thoughts on reliability - 1/27/2014 2:35:45 PM   
Templer_12


Posts: 1700
Joined: 1/5/2009
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Friedrich

... Apollo is improved and more advanced. I think the opposite would be right: Apollo is based on the experience with the older designs and should be able to reach a 90+ R&D reliability,...

I agree so far, Apollo might be based on the experience with the older designs.
But however, it is a new design with all it own upcoming flaws!

< Message edited by Templer -- 1/27/2014 3:38:54 PM >

(in reply to Friedrich)
Post #: 11
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