Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

OT Origin of the word "Grognard"

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT Origin of the word "Grognard" Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 3:46:33 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
The earliest attestations of the word grogner in French are from around 1300, one is in a Cambridge University manuscript ("Tut a primes I comant [...] Al vilein jelos groinert / Mes angoisse e la hart").

The source of the French verb grogner ("to snarl"/"to grunt"/"to growl"/"to grumble") (Anglo-Norman groigner) is the Latin grunnire, "to grumble", which is related to the Germanic word-stem that gives you words like the English grunt or German grunzen, i.e. the sound made by pigs.

The noun, grognard, then, referred to someone who grumbled, i.e., a grumbler. (Wargamers, grumble about anything? Never!)

The French Vielle Garde, or Old Guard, were the elite veteran elements of Napoleon's Imperial Guard. As such, it was the most prestigious formation in Napoleon's Grande Armée. Members of the Imperial Guard had a number of benefits, one being considerably higher wages than any other military unit. Another privilege reserved only for members of the Old Guard was the freedom to express their discontent freely, i.e. the Old Guard was allowed to grumble openly! The Old Guard Grenadiers came to be known as "les Grognards" because they openly complained about all the petty troubles of military life.

Therefore, in French, "grognard" refers to an old veteran soldier; especially an old complaining soldier that is a veteran of the grenadiers of the Imperial Guard.

The word "grognard" began being used in England around the 1840s to refer to an old soldier.

The term first began to be applied to veteran wargamers back in the early 1970s. It was coined by John Young, who was, at the time, an employee for New York-based Simulations Publications, Inc. (SPI), at the time an influential publisher of board wargames. SPI had a flagship magazine called "Strategy & Tactics", which had started as a wargaming fanzine but under SPI became more of a military history magazine that included a wargame.

SPI's most successful wargame at the time? Napoleon at Waterloo. Young is said to have compared the grumbling and complaining by players of SPI's boardgames to the legendary grumbling by Les Grognards. His use of the term to describe SPI's wargamer clients around the office (and among the local playtesters) soon led to "grognards" being mentioned in an edition of Strategy & Tactics.

A few hundred thousand board wargames picked up the term from the magazine, and it later spread to computer wargamers, since the board wargamers were the first people to play computer wargames when they appeared (these tended to be PC conversions of existing board wargames anyway).

I hope that was interesting. Now, grumble away!
Post #: 1
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 4:04:52 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
'Grognard' refers to some gnard who has imbibed in too much grog, likely the Ba*****i sort which is synonymous with the words ersatz and crap. All you gnards out there need to stop drinking that rot-gut and switch to something decent like a good gin or some 12 year single malt scotch. Or, if you're truly stuck on rum, Myers's rum.

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 2
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 4:33:42 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
Since we're on the topic:

Admiral Edward Vernon was an English naval officer who was nicknamed "Old Grog" due to the the grogram (or "coarse grained") cloak he wore.

Vernon ordered his sailors' rum to be diluted with water in 1740. Later, lemon or lime juice was added to the recipe of watered-down rum. As a result of the vitamin C in the daily doses of "grog", Vernon's sailors were healthier than the rest of the Royal Navy.

George Washington's older half-brother Lawrence served under Vernon in the Caribbean against Spain. Mount Vernon in Virginia is named for the English admiral.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 3
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 4:37:05 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
Incidentally, the practice by the Royal Navy of adding lemon or lime juice to the daily grog ration resulted in Royal Navy soldiers being derogatorily known as "limeys". Eventually the term lost its naval connection and was used to denote British people in general.

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 4
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 5:05:00 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit. Lieutenant (later Vice Admiral) Bligh made his historic and not only unprecidented voyage, but also unmatched one covering 3,600 nautical miles in the simple launch of the Bounty without any lime at all. He required no citrus fruit of any kind to accomplish this. He and his fellow gnards only required their daily ration of grog. They nardly heeded any other sustenance whatever. These are indesputable facts.

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 5
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 5:47:29 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
IIRC, the Bligh open sea voyage took only 18 days.  Not really long enough (if it was about 18 days) to get scurvy if the men were in good condition at the start.

Alfred

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 6
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 5:58:05 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
I believe it was 47 days, Alfred.

An amazing feat, nonetheless. From Tonga past Fiji and modern-day Vanuatu, skirting PNG, going through the Endeavour Strait, and then on to Koepang in Timor.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 7
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 6:34:31 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline
In Napoleonic slang, AE players would better be called Ripainsel (from Riz-pain-sel, rice-bread-salt), which was the nickname for the supply troops.

Francois



< Message edited by fcharton -- 1/7/2014 7:38:45 AM >

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 8
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 7:36:13 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

IIRC, the Bligh open sea voyage took only 18 days.  Not really long enough (if it was about 18 days) to get scurvy if the men were in good condition at the start.

Alfred

6 weeks from Tahiti to Batavia

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 9
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 8:01:31 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
The onset of scurvy symptoms takes around four weeks, apparently.

The Bounty's launch apparently had 150lb of ship's biscuit, 32lb of pork, 6 quarts of rum and 28 gallons of water.

I am sure they must have gathered fruit on the way.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 10
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 8:10:49 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
In fact, they landed at Cape York and stayed there for a while.

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 11
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 9:09:29 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
Yes. We know.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 12
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 9:45:19 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
T was probably there..maybe as Captain Bligh...

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 13
RE: OT Origin of the word "Grognard" - 1/7/2014 10:29:22 AM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
Well done.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 14
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT Origin of the word "Grognard" Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.375