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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please)

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What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 1:34:34 AM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline

I am getting my butt handed to me in the air war over Akyab. I have top-notch pilots flying CAP in Tojo IIc's at 31k feet. Time and time again, small sweeps by Hellcats shoot the crap out of my guys. Here's the combat report for the latest sweep. Note, the Warhawks were not involved in the combat, but for some reason, they showed up in the combat report.

Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 41,800 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 42

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 4
F6F-3 Hellcat x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 8 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (22 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
22 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 31000
Raid is overhead
64th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes

This is not an isolated event. It has been happening about every other turn for the past week or two.

I outnumbered him by 3:1 and my guys were flying a plane with slightly-to-considerably better stats - slightly greater speed and maneuver rating and considerably greater climb rate. The Hellcats did get the bounce (since our HR limits CAPs and sweeps to 2nd best maneuver band, the best altitude I could do was the 31k feet). My pilots were all 70-80 experience and 70-80 air and defense skill, so we're not talking about much of a pilot skill differential here. Top squadron commanders were in charge, so that doesn't explain it either. What do I need to do to avoid results like this in the future?

Post #: 1

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 1:53:19 AM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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Is he willing to tell you his pilot stats?

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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 2:12:49 AM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Is he willing to tell you his pilot stats?

I wouldn't want to know. It would kind of ruin the game, but I don't think they can be all that great. We're in mid 43, and the air war has been pretty decisively in my favor thus far. The A2A kill ratio is about 2.5:1 in my favor (2500 to 1000), so I can't imagine he can field all that many top pilots. Heck, even if my top guys (exp 80-85, air skill 80) defected and went over to the other side, they wouldn't really be that much better than those I've been flying over Akyab.

I'm thinking of using some Oscars as bait and putting them on CAP at around 15k. If his Hellcats dive down on them, then my Tojos can bounce them. With the Oscars' awesome maneuver rating, hopefully they can evade when they get bounced and the Tojos can drop down and cut the Hellcats up. Is this worth a shot?

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 3

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 2:27:35 AM

MrKane

Posts: 790
Joined: 3/9/2013
From: West Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I am getting my butt handed to me in the air war over Akyab. I have top-notch pilots flying CAP in Tojo IIc's at 31k feet. Time and time again, small sweeps by Hellcats shoot the crap out of my guys. Here's the combat report for the latest sweep. Note, the Warhawks were not involved in the combat, but for some reason, they showed up in the combat report.

Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 41,800 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 42

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 4
F6F-3 Hellcat x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 8 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (22 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
22 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 31000
Raid is overhead
64th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes

This is not an isolated event. It has been happening about every other turn for the past week or two.

I outnumbered him by 3:1 and my guys were flying a plane with slightly-to-considerably better stats - slightly greater speed and maneuver rating and considerably greater climb rate. The Hellcats did get the bounce (since our HR limits CAPs and sweeps to 2nd best maneuver band, the best altitude I could do was the 31k feet). My pilots were all 70-80 experience and 70-80 air and defense skill, so we're not talking about much of a pilot skill differential here. Top squadron commanders were in charge, so that doesn't explain it either. What do I need to do to avoid results like this in the future?

I will try to help, but because I did not see combat animation I am mostly guessing base on my experience.

In this CR you show here his planes are arriving as one group and you have 20 Ki-44 ready to intercept.
So it is more like 1:1 not 3:1. His F6F will always have dive effect witch it real killer here .
My suggestion is to put one Sentai at 15k with high defn skill pilots , he is going to have dive anyway, so use maneuverability to improve chance evade attack. Other Sentai with high air skill pilots should be 5-10k higher as "payback team". They will have chance to get dive effect against his F6F every time his planes finish they dive attack. Generally this is "no win scenario" but you can make him pay for it.
Generally do not fight him at 31k alt, you are loosing your maneuverability and he will have dive effect anyway. Just get him low and finish in dogfights. More Sentai will help either or dived them and have 6 groups in different altitudes.

(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 4

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 4:43:13 AM

ADMR Rampage

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Joined: 1/15/2010
Status: offline

The problem is most likely with the Tojo's themselves. The Tojo had a very low muzzle velocity, which meant it was not very effective at anything but nearly point blank range. If you check their operational history against the Hellcat, it was less than mediocre. They were used mostly in China, the Indonesian oil fields defense, homeland air defense and the China-Burma-India Theater of Operations. Eventually, Japan used them as Kamikaze planes against B-29's, but again very ineffective. Also both the Hellcat and P-40's were very durable, meaning they were hard to shoot down. So you might try the lower alt. suggestion or better yet switch out the Tojo for a better aircraft for your CAPs operations.

WITP AE amazes me with it's accurate portrayal of ships, aircraft and equipment used in the pacific theater.

(in reply to MrKane)

Post #: 5

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 5:09:35 AM

SqzMyLemon

Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline

Watch your fatigue and morale as well, they can have a big effect on the performance of your CAP. You are right though, layer your CAP, drive those sweeps down and hope your Tojo's get the odd bounce on a few Hellcats.

As to ADMR Rampage's suggestion, it's mid 43 and the Tojo IIc may be Icedawg's best fighter depending on what he's been able to advance. Japan works with what it has, it often ain't pretty in the air war. Look at obvert's AAR, he's very happy with the performance of the Jack, but it's a navy plane isn't it? It may be hard to get the numbers where you need them.

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Post #: 6

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 5:24:40 AM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

Its the altitude. He is probably sending in his Hellcats at or close to Max ALT which is above your CAP. He then gets "the dive" on your CAP which is insanely powerful getting him all these kills. Put your CAP up at the same altitude or higher then his sweeps and the difference will be as night and day.

If you watch the replay you will see a lot of "Hellcat diving on Tojo".

If you do like Mr.Kane suggest the hellcats will dive on the planes down at 15k but then your CAP at 31k will in turn dive on his Hellcats causing high casualties on them. This is the "layered CAP".

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)

Post #: 7

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 5:31:08 AM

MrKane

Posts: 790
Joined: 3/9/2013
From: West Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Its the altitude. He is probably sending in his Hellcats at or close to Max ALT which is above your CAP. He then gets "the dive" on your CAP which is insanely powerful getting him all these kills. Put your CAP up at the same altitude or higher then his sweeps and the difference will be as night and day.

If you watch the replay you will see a lot of "Hellcat diving on Tojo".

If you do like Mr.Kane suggest the hellcats will dive on the planes down at 15k but then your CAP at 31k will in turn dive on his Hellcats causing high casualties on them. This is the "layered CAP".

He is playing with HR "2nd best ..." so he cannot put cap higher.

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 8

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 5:42:24 AM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

I thought I saw 41,800 as the raid altitude up there in the combat report?

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Post #: 9

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 6:14:41 AM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Its the altitude. He is probably sending in his Hellcats at or close to Max ALT which is above your CAP. He then gets "the dive" on your CAP which is insanely powerful getting him all these kills. Put your CAP up at the same altitude or higher then his sweeps and the difference will be as night and day.

If you watch the replay you will see a lot of "Hellcat diving on Tojo".

If you do like Mr.Kane suggest the hellcats will dive on the planes down at 15k but then your CAP at 31k will in turn dive on his Hellcats causing high casualties on them. This is the "layered CAP".

He is playing with HR "2nd best ..." so he cannot put cap higher.

Ah, didn�t know that. I have been playing most of a PBEM with that HR. Not fond of it.

(in reply to MrKane)

Post #: 10

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 6:17:48 AM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I thought I saw 41,800 as the raid altitude up there in the combat report?

With the HR they are playing with the Hellcat get access to the highest MVR band while the Tojo is "stuck" at 31k. Icedawgs post is a perfect example of why I really don�t like the 2nd best MVR band HR. It makes it all about what AC can get up on the highest MVR band.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 11

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 8:35:03 AM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I am getting my butt handed to me in the air war over Akyab. I have top-notch pilots flying CAP in Tojo IIc's at 31k feet. Time and time again, small sweeps by Hellcats shoot the crap out of my guys. Here's the combat report for the latest sweep. Note, the Warhawks were not involved in the combat, but for some reason, they showed up in the combat report.

Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 41,800 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 42

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 4
F6F-3 Hellcat x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 8 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
9th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (22 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
22 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 31000
Raid is overhead
64th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes

This is not an isolated event. It has been happening about every other turn for the past week or two.

I outnumbered him by 3:1 and my guys were flying a plane with slightly-to-considerably better stats - slightly greater speed and maneuver rating and considerably greater climb rate. The Hellcats did get the bounce (since our HR limits CAPs and sweeps to 2nd best maneuver band, the best altitude I could do was the 31k feet). My pilots were all 70-80 experience and 70-80 air and defense skill, so we're not talking about much of a pilot skill differential here. Top squadron commanders were in charge, so that doesn't explain it either. What do I need to do to avoid results like this in the future?

You HR is part of the issue, another is the better durability of the Hellcat, but your setup plays into the hands of the attacker as well. You do not use mutally supportive CAP layers, and you try to get as far up as possible (into the realms of the Hellcat) instead of low down where the Tojo excells.

What are the P40Ks doing there? LRCAP supporting the sweep, or part of the sweep as well. If LRCAP, at what alt are they set?

Edit: The CAP engaged messages also might point to a problem (raid warning is 18mins out but 9th Sentai engages only when the raid is overhead), this might be due to other small sweeps/raids, but in any way I would address the above first, and then look at further issues in detail if the results still are not satisfying.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 1/12/2014 9:52:35 AM >

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Post #: 12

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 9:52:33 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

In addition to the points others have made, I note that you had 22 ac airborne ... that's a very high percentage suggesting a very high CAP%. Check both ac and pilot fatigue, I'm going to guess both are in the +20's ... coupled with your single CAP band that is going to put you at a disadvantage in the fight.

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Post #: 13

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 1:26:14 PM

ny59giants

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Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

Besides what others have said about layered CAP, I would set my CAP at 40 or 50% with 20% at Rest if facing multiple sweeps. Fight at altitude which is best for you. Trying the new air data in RA vs Mr Kane so its too early to tell how it will work without any restrictions.

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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 3:03:13 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

All suggestions above are good.

The strata-sweep is not going to be easy to combat though, even with layered CAP. With the Hellcats it won't be too bad now with a layered CAP. Against P-47s, forget it. Nothing to do but get crushed and pick your spots to fly CAP when you can hit bombers as well. You don't need CAP up every single day.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/12/2014 10:24:32 PM >

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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/12/2014 3:47:13 PM

pmelheck1

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
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As others have pointed out my questions would be about the leader assigned, fatigue, and morale. Maybe altitude would come into the mix as well. At extremely high altitude your airframes could very well lose all advantages. If he has been sweeping for a while he could very well have much better pilot stats than you do. Did you notice only 22 of your fighters actually engaged making you outnumbered slightly? It shows 20 didn't engage and were recalled - the 64th (I think).

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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/15/2014 4:51:12 AM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

And do you have decent radar at the base? After suffering Tojo hell for one year, the introduction of the hellcat in 4/43 changed things dramatically in our game. Hellcats ate Tojos for dinner and were slightly better than the George and only bested by the Frank. However, we used a 29,000 ft height limit so most of our fights took place at 29k on pretty much equal grounds. If his hellcats are allowed to fly higher than your Tojos then you have more problems than you can handle. Sorry.

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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/15/2014 5:33:55 AM

JocMeister

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From: Sweden
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Not sure about radar and sweeps. I made a post about it in the tech forum but never received any reply from michealm. Could be as seille suggested and its just a display bug.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3431819

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Post #: 18

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/15/2014 6:08:58 AM

MrKane

Posts: 790
Joined: 3/9/2013
From: West Poland
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As I do understand radar does detection by rand() function. Radar data, operator experience(quit important), incoming planes altitude
are just modifiers to final calculation. So even 20 radars can fail to detect attack. General rule is have as many devices as possible, each one increase chance of early detection.

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 19

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong (No Khyberbill Please) - 1/15/2014 6:41:48 AM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

As I do understand radar does detection by rand() function. Radar data, operator experience(quit important), incoming planes altitude
are just modifiers to final calculation. So even 20 radars can fail to detect attack. General rule is have as many devices as possible, each one increase chance of early detection.

Yes, but that doesn�t explain why fighters on airfield attack always (in case of allied radars) get detected 30-50 minutes out but as soon as you switch the same fighters to sweep they get a detection time 3-10 minutes.

As I said it could just be a display bug but I�m doubtful. A detection time of 50 minutes should see most of the CAP airborne and ready to intercept. Going by my own game and sandbox even though I have 200 planes on CAP only a few usually are airborne when the sweep arrive as would fit a low detection time.

That being said in this case I think its a good thing as defensive CAP is already so powerful compared to sweeps. At least in later stages of the game where 300-500 plane CAP is not unusual.

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 1/15/2014 8:41:47 AM >

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Post #: 20