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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/13/2014 11:59:46 PM

Michael T

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quote:

Two things will happen. Either the Axis player will insist on playing without 1:1 = 2:1 and with reduced blizzard and it's auto victory for Axis

When the new optional rule comes out I challenge you to a game. You Axis me Soviet.

You can have whatever weather you like, random or not. The removal of the 1:1 rule. The mild winter.

Lets see how your *I win button* goes.

But I bet you find some excuse not to back up your BS.

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 12:01:21 AM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

Bozo, I don't see how you conclude that playing with mild blizzard and without the 2:1 rule is an autowin for the Axis. Really, it isn't. The 2:1 rule especially is completely unnecessary for the Soviet to attack. Attacking is pretty easy in this game for either side. People have somehow convinced themselves that the Red Army turns into a pumpkin without it. Not so.

Have you played a humanoid lately? I think we should just wait and see what happens. More data is required. And it's a good thing for the 2:1 rule to be optional. People just need to know what they are getting into.

I'm waiting for the next (and presumably last) patch before playing anything, but mostly because I don't want my games wrecked by late war swapping logic bugs.

But I do not think that the game is balanced against the Red Army right now.

I don't need any further testing regarding the 2:1 rule. I have disliked it for 3 years. My mind is quite made up on the subject. Recent and very exhaustive testing shows me that attacking is as easy now as it has ever been. If I had to generate combat wins the old fashioned way, I am absolutely confident that I could do so based on that recent testing. Attacking is easy. The entire combat model is biased in its favor. Always has been, there is nothing new here.

(I have discovered a few quirks along the way, mind you.)

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 1/14/2014 1:24:41 AM >

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Post #: 242

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 12:30:24 AM

Michael T

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quote:

I'm waiting for the next (and presumably last) patch before playing anything

Same here.

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Post #: 243

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 12:32:54 AM

Flaviusx

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It's still not a bad idea to solo test some stuff, though, MT. But I didn't find anything super different doing so, just some quirks. Nothing that changes my mind about the 2:1, but mostly ideas in how to squeeze the most out of it. The combat model is behaving slightly differently now than it used to.

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Post #: 244

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 1:19:08 AM

Michael T

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I intend to do a full combat analysis once we get a stable near to final patch. Then its all systems go. I think running loads of tests right now probably a waste of my time. I am just tinkering here and there with different things now, mostly logistical stuff.

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Post #: 245

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 1:39:02 AM

Bozo_the_Clown

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quote:

But I bet you find some excuse not to back up your BS.

I really hoped that someone from Matrix/Slitherine would have contacted you regarding your attitude towards other players. Your macho attitude is very annoying.

I wouldn't play with you if we were the only two people stuck on an island, with two computers, two copies of WitE and an unlimited power supply. But thanks, mate!

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Post #: 246

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 2:40:40 AM

Michael T

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Like I said. Excuses. Your all talk and no substance.

BTW, the feeling is mutual. But that wouldn't stop me from rubbing your nose in it.

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Post #: 247

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 9:11:22 AM

chuckfourth

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Hi Flaviusx

quote:

I do not really care about the particulars of the model at the micro level so long as it delivers useful macro results. The combat model doesn't need to be "realistic" at this tactical level to do this.

I would suggest that the micro level model delivers badly flawed macro results. Rather than 'useful'

Micro Indirect fire weapons not modelled
Macro Losses of indirect weapons too high. Production implications
Playbalance Soviets favoured due to higher production.

Micro AT weapons not restricted to destroying AV's
Macro Losses of AT weapons too high. Losses of AV too low. Production implications
Playbalance Soviets favoured due to higher production.

Micro Too High Losses of heavy and specialist weapons
Macro Formations lose their Heavy firepower too quickly. Production is distorted.
Playbalance Soviets favoured due to higher production.

Micro Tactics not coded into Combat engine.
Macro German units are considerably underperforming in battles.
Playbalance Soviets favoured they have poorer tactics.

There are no doubt more of these to be identified.

It is exactly because of these 'micro' problems that you have all the, oft complained about, forum clogging, 'dodgy' macro rules.

Trying to fix a micro problem on the Macro scale is not possible .

You do exactly two things in the Game, Move and Fight.
How many battles do you fight in a campaign?
224 turns times lets say 60 battles per turn, that's about, 13000.

So times each tiny little macro problem by 13000 and your telling me that's not a problem?
Your telling me that's not a macro problem?

[quote
The combat model doesn't need to be "realistic" at this tactical level to do this. It could indeed do the job by becoming less "realistic" simply by emulating a totally old fashioned CRT.

That is exactly what it is at the moment a CRT.

Best Regards Chuck

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Post #: 248

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 9:23:17 AM

76mm

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chuckles, I have not watched a line-by-line playback, but doesn't the impact of those various issues pale in comparison to the effects of retreat losses on the Germans? I used to be amazed by the number of artillery pieces lost by the Germans when I was able to force a retreat. Same with AFVs.

Again, even if technically separate from the combat engine, I consider the retreat mechanic part of the combat engine because it seems retreat losses are used (mis-used?) to "gross up" combat losses.

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Post #: 249

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 9:24:27 AM

Flaviusx

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Chuckles, yeah, to me the problems of the combat model are macro: they generate losses primarily via retreats. The rest to me is just details.

And because of this, no, it doesn't emulate a CRT. In an old fashioned CRT you can indeed get combat results where no retreat occurs but heavy losses apply (on both sides, even.) Loss rates aren't strictly tied to retreats. Or vice versa: retreats with minimal or no losses. Or retreats where the attacker takes a pasting and the defender gets away with little or no losses.

So, ironically, the old fashioned CRT can actually be a much more sophisticated combat model than WITE combat engine for all of its pseudorealism. It allows for greater diversity of results.

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 9:27:38 AM

chuckfourth

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Hi

I would suggest the easiest way to force the Soviet to play forward would be to relax the gradual logistical stranglehold that stops the Germans before Moscow in game.
If that is done the Soviets have to play forward

or they lose.

To compensate the movement points of the armoured divisions could be lowered a bit. and the German first move advantage rule dropped.
Lowered how much?
Lower the movement points just enough to stop the LVOV pocket forming.
Anyway
The current movement points are to model historical German first week or so penetrations, but what actually arrived at those points?
Was it a regiment? because that is the smallest unit in the game, probably not maybe just an AC and 3 motorcycles. So 50 it too high.

Problem solved

Best Regards Chuck.

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Post #: 251

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 9:43:27 AM

chuckfourth

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Hi 76mm

I agree you are probably right in what you say.
but
If the retreat losses were "realistic" then the micro problems become more important.

I believe in the vast majority of cases withdrawals and retreats were really well handled by the Germans.
Especially with respect to heavy weapons which everyone new were in short supply.

Best Regards Chuck.

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Post #: 252

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 9:44:50 AM

Bozo_the_Clown

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quote:

Like I said. Excuses. Your all talk and no substance.

quote:

BTW, the feeling is mutual. But that wouldn't stop me from rubbing your nose in it.

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Post #: 253

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 10:54:14 AM

821Bobo

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Bozo

If you do not wanna play MT you can try me. Michael is right and I am pretty confident that in best case you will make it to the historical lines. No axis I win button at all.

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Post #: 254

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 11:02:07 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
So, ironically, the old fashioned CRT can actually be a much more sophisticated combat model than WITE combat engine for all of its pseudorealism. It allows for greater diversity of results.

Agreed...

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Post #: 255

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 11:27:28 AM

Bozo_the_Clown

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quote:

If you do not wanna play MT you can try me. Michael is right and I am pretty confident that in best case you will make it to the historical lines. No axis I win button at all.

Thanks for the offer. Lets just wait and see. If I'm wrong I will openly admit it. I'm not one of those guys who hast to be right all the time. What I know about the game at this point tells me that removing 1:1=2:1 and using reduced blizzard is too much.

However, I will not accept anyone calling another person's opinion "bullshit."

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Post #: 256

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 12:32:59 PM

Tarhunnas

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In the big picture, on the macro level, I think two things are needed:

* A better VP system that encourages the Soviets to defend forward (Points per turn per location for example).

* Nerfing the Lvov pocket.

These two should be done together, they cannot be done separately. If the Lvov pocket is removed with no incentive to fight forward the Soviets will just run with even more troops, and with the Lvov pocket much of the troops for a Soviet forward defense will not be there.

Ideally, the VP system should also encourage the Germans to hold terrain for as long as possible.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 1/14/2014 1:33:54 PM >

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 1:09:12 PM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
So, ironically, the old fashioned CRT can actually be a much more sophisticated combat model than WITE combat engine for all of its pseudorealism. It allows for greater diversity of results.

There's far too much in this thread to talk about but I think that the most important conclusion for me is that the old fashioned base CV x modifiers + dice roll is a much better way of doing it.
For one thing it's transparent so that players can see why their elite panzer corps was stopped dead by a rifle brigade. "Oh I see, I threw a double one. Let's get over it and move on." You can also see exactly what effect combat modifiers are having.
It's a more solid system as well. There are so many quirky results in WITE that just can't be explained and they often repeat which means that it's not just dice rolls that are causing them. If the quirkiness is due to extreme dice rolls as with a CRT system then it's far easier to deal with mentally. I can just imagine some plausible scenario or maybe make a note to sack a general who seems to be suspiciously 'unlucky'.
A CRT system is also relatively easily adjusted if results don't comply with historical parameters.
With computers, the results tables can be made as complex as necessary. I use the word 'necessary' deliberately because simplicity should always be the aim.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 1/14/2014 2:11:02 PM >

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 1:34:08 PM

SigUp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I used to be amazed by the number of artillery pieces lost by the Germans when I was able to force a retreat. Same with AFVs.

Once against the AI I lost over 90 of 110 tanks in a single retreat. Was so infuriated by it that I reloaded the save and pulled back that panzer division...

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

For one thing it's transparent so that players can see why their elite panzer corps was stopped dead by a rifle brigade. "Oh I see, I threw a double one. Let's get over it and move on." You can also see exactly what effect combat modifiers are having.

Agreed. The problem is not only that it's intrasparent, it's also that the CV modifications are fluctuating that much. I see something between 0.5 and 3.5 on a regular basis. I even saw something in the ranges of 8 for divisions with low CV (like a cavalry division jumping from 11 to 91).

@Bozo, I also think you are overdramatizing the +1 rule a little, though I agree that some testing is needed. Because right now the Soviet can bank on getting to a raw 2:1 on a regular basis with 1:1 initial odds, provided he can mass enough units. With the +1 rule any kind of uncertainty is basically eliminated. The Soviet knows if he gets within 1:1 initial odds he will win the battle. Heck, even getting within 70% of the German CV is enough most of the time.

Last but not least, I get the idea what CRT is, but what does this acronym stand for?

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 1:40:03 PM

Mundy

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Combat Results Table.

Ed-

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 1:40:34 PM

jwolf

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SigUp: CRT stands for combat results table. In old style paper map and cardboard counter games, to resolve an attack you would check each side's attack/defense factors, possibly with some modifiers, roll a die, and check the result on the "CRT."

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 2:15:03 PM

Gabriel B.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

In the big picture, on the macro level, I think two things are needed:

* A better VP system that encourages the Soviets to defend forward (Points per turn per location for example).

* Nerfing the Lvov pocket.

These two should be done together, they cannot be done separately. If the Lvov pocket is removed with no incentive to fight forward the Soviets will just run with even more troops, and with the Lvov pocket much of the troops for a Soviet forward defense will not be there.

Ideally, the VP system should also encourage the Germans to hold terrain for as long as possible.

The isuee of Lvov is mostly because of scenario design gone wrong, than combat engine .

the red army was not that foward deployed , for instance half of soviet soviet 5th army
was still behind the Stalin line when the german atack begun .

Frankly i had given up trying to undestand the logic behic this artificial foward deployment , it does not really help the soviets, it just gives them 4 days head start into encirclement .

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 2:32:29 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
So, ironically, the old fashioned CRT can actually be a much more sophisticated combat model than WITE combat engine for all of its pseudorealism. It allows for greater diversity of results.

There's far too much in this thread to talk about but I think that the most important conclusion for me is that the old fashioned base CV x modifiers + dice roll is a much better way of doing it.
For one thing it's transparent so that players can see why their elite panzer corps was stopped dead by a rifle brigade. "Oh I see, I threw a double one. Let's get over it and move on." You can also see exactly what effect combat modifiers are having.
It's a more solid system as well. There are so many quirky results in WITE that just can't be explained and they often repeat which means that it's not just dice rolls that are causing them. If the quirkiness is due to extreme dice rolls as with a CRT system then it's far easier to deal with mentally. I can just imagine some plausible scenario or maybe make a note to sack a general who seems to be suspiciously 'unlucky'.
A CRT system is also relatively easily adjusted if results don't comply with historical parameters.
With computers, the results tables can be made as complex as necessary. I use the word 'necessary' deliberately because simplicity should always be the aim.

The weird thing is, there are really only two combat results in WITE: hold and retreat. That's pretty thin gruel. There needs to be more sorts of results than that, imo.

A hold isn't all that punishing, either. While a retreat of any kind is good (for the attacker), the game doesn't really produce pyrrhic victories until very late in the game (and only for the Axis.) City combat is notoriously cheap and easy, etc.

Folks obsess over the occasional oddball results you get in WITE, but for me, what stands out is how boring the results are, the lack of diversity.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 1/14/2014 3:35:11 PM >

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 2:50:22 PM

Bozo_the_Clown

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quote:

Once against the AI I lost over 90 of 110 tanks in a single retreat. Was so infuriated by it that I reloaded the save and pulled back that panzer division...

But it's not all random and inexplicable. For example, if you stack 3 Panzer divisions in front of two stacks of 3 divisions you will get much higher retreat losses. Also, if you push divisions back over a river the retreat losses are double or triple. If you force a retreat through enemy ZOC the retreat losses are higher as well. Then, how does the fuel situation effect retreat losses. I don't know but I would assume it plays a role. Overall, I find retreat losses way too high in regards to men and material. It should be much more linked to morale.

quote:

@Bozo, I also think you are overdramatizing the +1 rule a little, though I agree that some testing is needed. Because right now the Soviet can bank on getting to a raw 2:1 on a regular basis with 1:1 initial odds, provided he can mass enough units.

You are probably right. But why can't we just wait and test the new blizzard before we demand another rule change. And why do I get 20 challenges as soon as I mention something about an "I win button". I'm currently playing a game against A game and afterwards hopefully against Pelton. Everyone else has to wait in line.

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 3:05:38 PM

Flaviusx

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The infuriating thing about these retreats with heavy panzer losses is that it is the only game in town. There's never the real possibility for a nimble fighting retreat with minimal casualties. Down the line this really comes back to haunt the Axis and explains the mass proliferation of forts.

Retreats are so punishing that they must absolutely be avoided. Almost any retreat result is a huge positive for the attacker. It's just way too binary.

Mind you, I think this is being addressed to some extent in WITW. But it's a genuine problem.

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 4:56:47 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The weird thing is, there are really only two combat results in WITE: hold and retreat. That's pretty thin gruel. There needs to be more sorts of results than that, imo.

A hold isn't all that punishing, either. While a retreat of any kind is good (for the attacker), the game doesn't really produce pyrrhic victories until very late in the game (and only for the Axis.) City combat is notoriously cheap and easy, etc.

Folks obsess over the occasional oddball results you get in WITE, but for me, what stands out is how boring the results are, the lack of diversity.

Good points! There is no EX, or AX or those other nuances that even the most basic CRT used to provide.

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 5:35:17 PM

Schmart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The weird thing is, there are really only two combat results in WITE: hold and retreat. That's pretty thin gruel. There needs to be more sorts of results than that, imo.

A hold isn't all that punishing, either. While a retreat of any kind is good (for the attacker), the game doesn't really produce pyrrhic victories until very late in the game (and only for the Axis.) City combat is notoriously cheap and easy, etc.

Folks obsess over the occasional oddball results you get in WITE, but for me, what stands out is how boring the results are, the lack of diversity.

This is where one of my favourite elements of the TOAW system comes in: the ability to adjust each unit's 'stance'. Minimal, normal, or aggressive, in both attack and defence. It provides more flavour to combat results, and allows pressing the attack or defence as required/wanted. Maybe add such a toggle at the lowest HQ level. It would make things more unpredictable for the attacker, not knowing how hard the opposing forces will fight. I think it would also allow for more realism to elements like fighting retreats, screening attacks, etc.

IMHO, what Wite 2.0 needs is less detail to be gamed (practically/reasonably or maliciously) in a mathematical sense, but rather more operational and strategic combat elements than can be felt out and intuited by players. To me, that's what combat at these levels is about. I don't care how or why individual weapons, vehicles, or squads act in the combat engine, as long as the results are reasonably historically plausible (there's some room for improvement in Wite here). And if I did care, I'd be playing tactical level wargames. This isn't a tactical game.

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 6:04:38 PM

Erik Rutins

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Hi Michael,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Like I said. Excuses. Your all talk and no substance.

BTW, the feeling is mutual. But that wouldn't stop me from rubbing your nose in it.

Personal attacks and insults, calling out other forum members and swearing are against forum rules. We want to keep this forum as a friendly place for wargamers. You can disagree completely with another poster's opinion, but still treat that poster with civility and respect.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 268

RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 6:31:53 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

This is where one of my favourite elements of the TOAW system comes in: the ability to adjust each unit's 'stance'. Minimal, normal, or aggressive, in both attack and defence. It provides more flavour to combat results, and allows pressing the attack or defence as required/wanted. Maybe add such a toggle at the lowest HQ level. It would make things more unpredictable for the attacker, not knowing how hard the opposing forces will fight. I think it would also allow for more realism to elements like fighting retreats, screening attacks, etc.

Nice idea, and in certain periods the dictator in chief could get some stupid notion that you are only allowed to select stand at all costs, or maybe disregard at risk of being cashiered - that would be a nice touch, but possibly fiddly. Just setting the stance for all the units in WITE would be a chore.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 1/14/2014 7:32:41 PM >

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RE: The core problem with WitE+ - 1/14/2014 7:03:32 PM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

With computers, the results tables can be made as complex as necessary. I use the word 'necessary' deliberately because simplicity should always be the aim.

Board games can also have quite complicated CRTs. Here's one that generates over 40 000 different results (The Lord of the CRT). I still think it's easier to tweak something like that, than WitE combat model, to get desired results...