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RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised

 
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RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 2:45:35 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the T62 situation near Rome. Landing at Anzio has caused the Germans to have to defend in two directions and they ended up
defending neither side well. The front has opened up and I'm getting surrounds on various Axis groups and the Free French have
donated a formation to capture Rome from the south. All they need is someone to watch their flanks.




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Post #: 421
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 2:31:39 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the situation in T66. Still trying to invest Rome. Still building rail to the front. Mopping up in the rear and trying to get a
surround on Germans at the front. Progress is being made.




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Post #: 422
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 3:01:00 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's what the Rome area looks like in T66. Mop up in the rear and fire and maneuvor at the front. As the supply level improves I'm
moving units north and I'm spreading out and converting hexes and looking for Germans. Especially along the roads and rails. I'm
running into a lot of those strongpoint thingies. They are good for roadblocks but they are easy to surround before destruction.




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Post #: 423
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 4:52:53 PM   
ogar

 

Posts: 297
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		Larry,
Thanks again for these full-featured AARs - always entertaining, and informative.  I was worrying that you were going to spend the rest of the game in and around Naples, and BOOM ! - Roma and beyond !

Is the Anzio landing sort of hard-coded (you must land at Anzio within turns X - Y ?) or did you just select that spot per strategy and tradition ?  With that big hole in the Gustav Line sector, I wonder if you really needed a full scale landing - although anything to get Elmer budged out of F on a mountainside will help.

@Steve - Congratulations on your editing/re-working.  I think the Sicily section - for one -  looks very well-done.  Having an aggressive, experienced player like Larry be slower than Patton, slower than Monty, is - I think - a good design feature; although it is frustrating to play a design that good.

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Post #: 424
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 5:25:27 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
Larry,
Thanks again for these full-featured AARs - always entertaining, and informative. 

Well, thank you very much for your kind words. I'm one of two Allied players in a PBEM game of WITP-AE and us allied players
are getting our but kicked and I was in a rather bad mood until I read your words. Cheer up larry it's just a game. I thank you for
your interest and for reading this thing this far.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
I was worrying that you were going to spend the rest of the game in and around Naples, and BOOM ! - Roma and beyond !

This is my second time through this scenario and I sort of knew what to expect and so on. I'm not all that good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
Is the Anzio landing sort of hard-coded (you must land at Anzio within turns X - Y ?) or did you just select that spot per strategy and tradition ? 

Um......It's my understanding that Anzio is the northernmost port on the west coast. I could be wrong. But Anzio also has a supply
point and I REALLY needed that right then. I was stuck at a hard place north of Salerno and needed some way to outflank the
Germans and because of the terrain the only way to do that was an invasion. And I picked Anzio because it was close to the action
site, it had a supply point, and I thought it was the last port headed north from Salerno. So I started gathering up troops to use in
the invasion and by the end of four turns had about two divisions worth of boots on the ground ready to go at ports, >100% supply,
and the rediness was reasonable ( 70% or more ). Weather was good, moonless night, tide was going out exposing the iron works
in the beach. It was just the right time to go.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
With that big hole in the Gustav Line sector, I wonder if you really needed a full scale landing - although anything to get Elmer budged out of F on a mountainside will help.

Yeah, it COULD have been done w/o a landing in the rear but an invasion was the solution to the problem that was potentially quicker
and easier than fire and maneuvor typically are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
@Steve - Congratulations on your editing/re-working.  I think the Sicily section - for one -  looks very well-done.  Having an aggressive, experienced player like Larry be slower than Patton, slower than Monty, is - I think - a good design feature; although it is frustrating to play a design that good.

Yeah, kudos to Steve for this scenario. Um.......I'm not sure what you mean by me being slower than Patton, Monty, etc. Am I behind
the historical schedule? I'm not that good a player you guys..........I just tend to post a lot.

(in reply to ogar)
Post #: 425
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 6:01:46 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's Rome in T68. I've surrounded the Germans and I'm mostly doing mop up and moving troops north.




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Post #: 426
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 8:07:38 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Thanks Ogar. I'm working in increments and with Mr. Fulkerson's help this one is getting better. It seems close to historical up to about 12-43, but I need to plug those holes in the Gustav Line, get a better German reaction to Anzio, and slow Allied supply down. Hopefully it won't end up being too frustrating so as to be not playable.

I could also use a book written from the Allied side so I could get a better perspective on their difficulties. Not one of those books full of personal accounts of Johnny taking that machine gun nest, but a book that details operations. If anyone could recommend one, I would appreciate it.

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Post #: 427
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 9:23:40 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		OK. It's T69 and Rome is finally cleared of Germans and it's got a broken bridge but I can fix that lickety split. The railhead is close to
Rome already and I'm planning on continuing the rail in two directions: north and east. I'm aiming for some supply levels in the middle
of the map that can support combat.




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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 1/17/2014 10:24:29 PM >

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Post #: 428
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 10:02:00 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the east side in T69. I'm continually getting into meeting engagements which turn into fire and maneuvor and after about three
or four turns I can have surrounded the unit and am ready to attack seriously. Depending upon terrain and supply and so on.




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Post #: 429
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/17/2014 10:33:13 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
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Status: offline 		http://www.history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/collect/ww2-mto.html

The US Army Histories on PDF.

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Post #: 430
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 12:38:59 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

http://www.history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/collect/ww2-mto.html

The US Army Histories on PDF.



Careful what I ask for, eh ?

Thanks very much Jeff, in a couple months I will be able to answer any questions I have.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 431
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 2:04:05 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I would like to take this opportunity to thank you profusely for this link. It's just what the doctor ordered. I've read a lot from books such
as these and I found a link one time where you could purchase books like this from the US government but I didn't like the prices myself.
They may have come down in price since the 20th century and now in the 21st century they may have a going out of business sale.




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Post #: 432
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 2:11:03 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the zoom out of T69's front lines. You can see how I like to surround the target before I destroy it. It keeps any small trickle of
equipment from going back to the pool for future use.






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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 1/18/2014 3:12:38 AM >

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Post #: 433
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 4:19:53 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's some of my losses so far:




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Post #: 434
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 5:01:50 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		My partisans have been busy in Northern Italy busting bridges and converting rail hexes. I've lost about 5 partisan units so far.




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Post #: 435
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 5:41:26 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the strategic situation in T71. Still moving north, although, most of the good supply level is a thing of the past. I'm getting into the
single digits now and the going is going to have to stop. I need to lengthen the supply rail and probably go in a new direction with it. I
feel like I'm entering another slow period in the scenario where there's no more supply points to be had going north and progress will
slow dramatically. Dramatically




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Post #: 436
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 6:35:30 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I did it again......I went to dig in a unit and ended up destroying a bridge instead. D'oh. And I did a fat finger slipo and clicked on the
map thus rendering the undo unusable. D'oh. I'll have to get one of those valuable RR engineers up here to fix the hole in the rail.




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Post #: 437
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 6:58:32 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the West coast area in T72: I'm running into very low supply areas and it's looking like I'll have to wait for the supply rail to get a
lot closer before I can advance properly.





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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 1/18/2014 7:59:37 AM >

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Post #: 438
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 11:09:04 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Here's the West coast area in T72: I'm running into very low supply areas and it's looking like I'll have to wait for the supply rail to get a
lot closer before I can advance properly.






@Steve (warning: nitpicking ahead):

You may want to put an escarpment around Orvieto (been there, cool site btw). Yes, all around :)



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Post #: 439
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 11:37:24 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

You may want to put an escarpment around Orvieto


Cool. Thanks !

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Post #: 440
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 12:16:39 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the T73 front lines. As you can see I need to slow down on the West side and somehow catch up the East side. More supply on
the East side would help considerably. I'll see what I can do to shift around the RR engineers to the appropriate rail line. Lemme
think about it some.




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Post #: 441
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 1:25:40 PM   
tcarusil

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 5/1/2011
From: Indianapolis, IN
Status: offline 		I would prefer to think that the Germans had rigged the bridge to blow and in the process of disarming it the munitions went off

TomC

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 442
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 1:31:36 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Yeah, and the bad part is that there were approximately 1,200 Italian civilians walking across the bridge trying to get away from the fighting. They were last seen floating downstream. Your turn to add a sentence.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 1/18/2014 2:32:39 PM >

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Post #: 443
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 1:56:03 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		The 10th Indian Division has sailed into the bay at Pescara, where they are building a rather large pier but it's not finished yet so they
parked the ships at anchor in the bay and they are using lighters to unload all the passengers. It takes a full turn simulating getting the
entire formation ashore via lighters. Next turn I'll just unembark them and walk into Pescara with the units.




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Post #: 444
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 2:27:18 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's a picture of the Pescara pier. It's a work in progress. Next comes the lights for unloading at night.




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Post #: 445
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 3:18:13 PM   
tcarusil

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 5/1/2011
From: Indianapolis, IN
Status: offline 		Yes, very bad in deed. My father's side of the family lived, and still does, in Foggia. Fortunately my grandparents had left in the early 20's. Who knows how many of my relatives are floating down that river. I weep

TomC

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Post #: 446
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 5:02:09 PM   
ogar

 

Posts: 297
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		I'm late in responding,

Steve - you may want to check out this link
http://www.amazon.com/The-Battle-Italy-W-Jackson/dp/B0000CNKJ4
(maybe from the library vs purchasing ?)  It's old, I read it a long time ago, and found it well written and comprehensive.
Jackson is British, so there is a tendency to focus on 8th Army but he does cover all the bases and covers the whole Italian campaign (less Sicily).  And I think that it helps he was there - you do get a flavor for what mattered at the time.

Looking at the battle for Rome, are there plans to allow an Open City/penalties for combat within the city (cutting supplies/reinforcments/VPs/etc ?)

@Larry -
The supply point at Anzio tells that story.  I was actually thinking about out-of-way places like Livorno or Ancona or ...

Re Sicily - since Patton and Monty raced to the 'be the first' to capture Messina, and since it was entered by US about 3 days before Larry's late August entry date, I wrote you were slower than the other two generals.  I suspect that your rate of advance would be hard for many of us to match, or exceed.

(in reply to tcarusil)
Post #: 447
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 9:50:28 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
Looking at the battle for Rome, are there plans to allow an Open City/penalties for combat within the city (cutting supplies/reinforcments/VPs/etc ?)

Yeah Steve: what's the plan on Rome in the scenario. I just now had to fight my way through it and I'm pretty sure the Vatican was
absolutely flattened to the ground. Nothing left. I hear they are going to start over in Salt Lake City. Good luck.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
Re Sicily - since Patton and Monty raced to the 'be the first' to capture Messina, and since it was entered by US about 3 days before Larry's late August entry date, I wrote you were slower than the other two generals.  I suspect that your rate of advance would be hard for many of us to match, or exceed.

Oh. Yeah, that makes sense now about me being "slower than...." I was. Um........my rate of advance however wasn't all due to my
General-wise skills. I'm not that good a player, and I'm mostly just emulating history. I'm going to be able to read a map soon. I need
more experience. But I CAN move units around. I'm pretty good on the defense because of all my games ending up w/ me on the
defense. There's quite an uproar in the WITP-AE After Action section where I'm part of an AAR about me and Jim Moore taking on the
designer of the Reluctant Admiral 6.5 scenario as the Jap player. RA 6.5 was designed by imagining what Yamamoto COULD have
changed if he had had his way w/ the imperial war board. Lots more ships / planes / land combat units. It's designed for the Japs
to win and Jim and I are the Allies and we're getting out butts handed to us. ME mostly it turns out. So I still know what it feels like to
just be able to tie my shoes and that's about my performance envelope.

(in reply to ogar)
Post #: 448
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 9:54:32 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tcarusil
Yes, very bad in deed. My father's side of the family lived, and still does, in Foggia. Fortunately my grandparents had left in the early 20's. Who knows how many of my relatives are floating down that river. I weep
TomC

I'm sorry for the losses you and your loved ones went through. Life is hard for everyone of course but sometimes there are places in
the world where the people are asked to undergo more than their fair share of the misery that existance can be sometimes.

(in reply to tcarusil)
Post #: 449
RE: Sicily to Brenner Pass Revised - 1/18/2014 11:58:39 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the front lines in T75. I'm thinking that the disparity in the parts of the front lines is even more pronounced than it was in T73.
I've shifted the engineers to work on the rail headed NE out of Rome and it's slowly starting to make a difference in the supply level.




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