What's the point

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> What's the point

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What's the point - 1/20/2014 12:49:59 AM

Wheat

Posts: 154
Joined: 6/17/2011
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I'm posting this attack. As I don't have the prior to attack screen shot, you'll have to take my word, but geez.

I move a division next to the indicated russian stack, it says 8=24. I bring up six divisions, all good morale and commanders, hit it with an air attack, and attack. NO Russians activate in defense. I lose. After the attack it changes to 9=42!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't mind slightly variable CV's, but that's ridiculous. What's the point of even putting a CV????

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< Message edited by Wheat -- 1/20/2014 1:50:59 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 12:51:52 AM

rmonical

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From: United States
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Fog of war. Happens all of the time.

(in reply to Wheat)

Post #: 2

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 12:59:06 AM

Wheat

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Joined: 6/17/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Fog of war. Happens all of the time.

Well, turn 69 and no it doesn't happen all the time. An almost a 100% combat increase with no reserve activation. The CV's seem WILDLY variable at times.

< Message edited by Wheat -- 1/20/2014 1:59:18 AM >

(in reply to rmonical)

Post #: 3

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 1:53:43 AM

vandorenp

Posts: 1028
Joined: 8/4/2006
From: Suffolk, VA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Fog of war. Happens all of the time.

Well, turn 69 and no it doesn't happen all the time. An almost a 100% combat increase with no reserve activation. The CV's seem WILDLY variable at times.

I think what was meant in writing "Happens all the time" is all the time in military history. You note that it hasn't happened all the time in the game. That puts me at ease even if it is some odd and rare sequence in the coding or a random number outlier. In my mind it is consistent with the bizarre accidental and deliberate happenings in warfare. (your strong response might make you sympathetic to the frustration Hitler and other battle captains exhibited when attacks thought to be a sure thing went awry). Who would have expected the veteran Pz Lehr commander to send his whole division down a muddy farm tract on the basis of a Belgian farmers word. Or the same commander the next night spending it entertaining a beautiful captured American nurse. Then at the 2nd battle of Schmidt the lead platoon leader of the 116th Panzer division makes a wrong turn in a night march leading the recon battalion through US lines and back rather than into an assembly area. I presume that the various students of military history associated with this game could add on many additions to this list.

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(in reply to Wheat)

Post #: 4

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 2:20:00 AM

tancred41

Posts: 34
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Montreal, QC, Canada
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Or a whole German division being held up for days by a single Soviet heavy tank en route to Leningrad in 41 ... Can't even remember which book that was in by which commander .. but they had to wait until they could find and position 88's, nothing else worked. They gave the Soviet crew hero burials.

Of all human endeavours, nothing comes close to war in terms of sheer random chaos and unpredictability. From the tactical (example above) to the strategic (France 1940).

(in reply to vandorenp)

Post #: 5

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 5:02:38 AM

morvael

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You had low detection level on that stack perhaps (only 10 is reliable info) and perhaps that's why it showed lower than it was. Also, you lost a lot of CV due to mixing HQs that were not siblings. Anyway, fort and terrain should be always properly included in the final value. Do you have a screenshot before the attack?

(in reply to tancred41)

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RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 12:06:30 PM

Flaviusx

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That stack had at least one rifle corps, a level 2 fort, and was in a forest. It was never likely it was going to be as low as 24 CV on defense, and you can see that its immediate neighbors are considerably stronger. That should have tipped you off right there and made you suspicious of your recon.

Nor is that the only stack that your recon may be sketchy, btw. 2 hexes SE there is another one showing 18 CV, also with a rifle corps on top, I think in a swamp, and a level 1 fort showing a mere 18 CV; bet you that one is also stronger.

There are many hexes where your recon isn't showing any CVs at all. Basically, you are underinformed here regarding the enemy.

Be very very suspicious of low CVs in any defending stack that has a rifle corps in it, particularly if there are fortifications and any terrain other than clear. A single rifle corps in clear by itself is rarely much less than 10 CV (especially after the 42c and later versions that kick in from October of 42 on.) Throw in terrain and forts, and a that single rifle corps by itself will easily exceed 20 CV defending, let alone a full 3 stack of units.

As the game goes on and Soviet morale increases and TOE improves those rifle corps will start reaching even higher values, 15+ CV in clear terrain and no forts is not unusual from mid 43 on for a single rifle corps. Late war (44-45) guards rifle corps will be pushing 20 CV in clear. Once again, put these bad boys in forts and any sort of terrain, and you're looking at very tough defenders.

You are at the point in the game when you must be wary of rifle corps. They are not easy to attack.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 1/20/2014 1:41:49 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 2:28:21 PM

karonagames

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Ah the memories! You were lucky it was not worse as you got your CV doubled too despite your 36% command penalties. You should aim to minimise those. I had to take several breaks from testing when the random results got too much for me. The only answer I ever got from Joel was "Gary likes a lot of variance". Apparently in WITP, that I haven't played, the attack on Pearl Harbour can see anything from 0 to 8 battleships sunk.

You never notice the result when your CV doubles and the enemy's halves!

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 8

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 2:40:46 PM

Flaviusx

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From: Southern California
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Bob, this was more a case of poor recon. Both the attacker and defender nearly doubled their CVs in the actual combat, so that is a wash more or less. And the attack went in with inadequate engineering support, too, the fort levels weren't affected.

Not an extreme result at all. In the really crazy combats somebody will triple their CV or more. This was a pretty run of the mill combat as things go, the surprise came in because the attacker didn't know what he was dealing with.

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RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 3:39:18 PM

GamesaurusRex

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Hmmm... Seeing as how it is my Russian line of defense Wheat is attacking, I find this forum post humorously satisfying.

and to assist in clarifying this particular result, I'll volunteer that it was our glorious 40th Rifle Corp that thwarted the Hun with it's 48 level morale rating.

We have notified the Hun that it is probably time for him to leave Mother Russia, but he has persisted in pressing eastward.

Hopefully he will uncover more 'surprises' as things progress.

(Now I wonder where those 2500 new T34s are ?)

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 1/20/2014 5:16:04 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 3:42:29 PM

swkuh

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Nice analysis. Details, details, details, and ways to manage them! How many hours should a beginner allot to each turn? And when can one expect to develop easy methods to play a fun game.

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 11

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 5:05:56 PM

Wheat

Posts: 154
Joined: 6/17/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

You had low detection level on that stack perhaps (only 10 is reliable info) and perhaps that's why it showed lower than it was. Also, you lost a lot of CV due to mixing HQs that were not siblings. Anyway, fort and terrain should be always properly included in the final value. Do you have a screenshot before the attack?

I had a 10 detection level on one div, an 8 and 7 on the other two. No prior screenshot.

Also Flaviusx gives good advice, and I have noticed, these russian corps are dang tough!
I know about the lack of engineers, mixed armies, but, hey, it was all working fine last year!

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 12

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 5:08:35 PM

Wheat

Posts: 154
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Hmmm... Seeing as how it is my Russian line of defense Wheat is attacking, I find this forum post humorously satisfying.
and to assist in clarifying this particular result, I'll volunteer that it was our glorious 40th Rifle Corp that thwarted the Hun with it's 48 level morale rating.

We have notified the Hun that it is probably time for him to leave Mother Russia, but he has persisted in pressing eastward.

Hopefully he will uncover more 'surprises' as things progress.
(Now I wonder where those 2500 new T34s are ?)

I sent in the panzers. Let's just say you are no longer there and we are starting to love this country with its quaint dirt roads, friendly villagers, and mild climate.

< Message edited by Wheat -- 1/20/2014 6:09:10 PM >

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 13

RE: What's the point - 1/20/2014 6:50:09 PM

GamesaurusRex

Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

Hmmm... Seeing as how it is my Russian line of defense Wheat is attacking, I find this forum post humorously satisfying.
and to assist in clarifying this particular result, I'll volunteer that it was our glorious 40th Rifle Corp that thwarted the Hun with it's 48 level morale rating.

We have notified the Hun that it is probably time for him to leave Mother Russia, but he has persisted in pressing eastward.

Hopefully he will uncover more 'surprises' as things progress.
(Now I wonder where those 2500 new T34s are ?)

I sent in the panzers. Let's just say you are no longer there and we are starting to love this country with its quaint dirt roads, friendly villagers, and mild climate.

You do realize it is MUD next turn ? (The new name for the German Army.

)

4 turns of mud X 3 Corps formed per turn = 12 new Corps + 6 new Corps from Front Bonus AP = 18 new Corps on front before snow.... Then there are still those pesky missing T34s... I think you will find the climate changing very soon to not so mild and villagers not so friendly (but driving shiny new tanks)...