Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


If Utah were to be included, what would you do with her if she survived? Old, slow, under armed, and with no historical basis for an AE upgrade path...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

The ship was a demilitarized training and target ship at the time of the attack. I am not sure of the specifics, but this was not a vessel likely to contribute to the battle line. There are numerous vessels that are not included in the game -- net tenders, and all sorts of auxiliary harbor craft; obsolete WWI craft in the West Coast reserve fleets. I don't think this is an omission as much as a nod to keep things streamlined.

Regards,
Feltan

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I agree, this is not going to keep folks up all night. But some interesting ships are included in the game and have virtually no value (yard oilers, the Dutch PG of pre-WW1 fame, etc)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Don't think I will lie awake tonight worrying about this one...

quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

I remember a debate that erupted a few months/years back about this. If I recall correctly the ship was little more than a floating hulk but it was wanted by some players because of the reasons stated here that it was a bomb/torpedo magnet that would soak up attacks. It was added in some mods and not in others... Good idea as a bomb magnet but I know the PH attack is a total really good, really bad affair. I've had some attacks it seemed no one missed a shot and other attacks none of my ships sustained more than 25% damage with no sinking at all - roll of the dice I don't mind at all as in real war the weirdest things can and do happen in really funny regularity that you just don't see outside of the combat zone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

I find it ironic with all the extreme detail in this game (one that is even modeling individual aircraft engine production including specific engine types and the almost insane modeling of ship repair including individual mounts etc...) that a historical ship such as the USS Utah was left out of Pearl Harbor for any reason. The fact is she was a target and took valuable torpedoes that could have been used against other ships (and are being used against other ships in the model.) I would think UTAH would add something to support if anything because she was a training ship.
BTW, The UTAH still sits there to this day on the bottom, rusting away and her dead heroic crew is probably not going to lose any sleep over this either.
Your "comment" contributed nothing to this topic other then a diss.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Don't think I will lie awake tonight worrying about this one...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred




You don't agree with the decision made by the scenario designer, nothing is stopping you from using the editor to include the Utah in your own custom scenario.

quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

I find it ironic with all the extreme detail in this game (one that is even modeling individual aircraft engine production including specific engine types and the almost insane modeling of ship repair including individual mounts etc...) that a historical ship such as the USS Utah was left out of Pearl Harbor for any reason. The fact is she was a target and took valuable torpedoes that could have been used against other ships (and are being used against other ships in the model.) I would think UTAH would add something to support if anything because she was a training ship.
BTW, The UTAH still sits there to this day on the bottom, rusting away and her dead heroic crew is probably not going to lose any sleep over this either.
Your "comment" contributed nothing to this topic other then a diss.

/

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

I find it ironic with all the extreme detail in this game (one that is even modeling individual aircraft engine production including specific engine types and the almost insane modeling of ship repair including individual mounts etc...) that a historical ship such as the USS Utah was left out of Pearl Harbor for any reason. The fact is she was a target and took valuable torpedoes that could have been used against other ships (and are being used against other ships in the model.) I would think UTAH would add something to support if anything because she was a training ship.
BTW, The UTAH still sits there to this day on the bottom, rusting away and her dead heroic crew is probably not going to lose any sleep over this either.
Your "comment" contributed nothing to this topic other then a diss.

/

There are at least two problems with including the Utah; both have been mentioned.

1) There's no need for her to be a torpedo "magnet" to keep things "fair." Whatever would be allocated to her can, in the game, instead flow to USS Pennsylvania. Those MK 666 Drydock-Jumping torpedoes are a bear.

2) The more serious issue, Don, who coded much or all of the naval routines, mentioned. If you put Utah in the OOB she is operated on by the EXE code same as any ship. Which means she can be repaired and operated with the fleet, an event for which no historical record exists. How to upgrade? What weapons to assign? If you somehow get around that and want to leave her as a hulk after the first turn --IOW, for over 1500 more turns--she sits there in Pearl taking up memory and processing in every shipyard phase. In the repair model there's no way to stop her crew from working on her, so she gradually gets fixed less major repairs. But she can't go anywhere. She just clutters up the repair reports for four-plus years.

If you try to exclude her after 12/7 and the torpedo magnet issue is gone you have to mess with the EXE, and putting a specific ship in the EXE could easily break scenarios. A ship is a data issue, not a code issue. If you code in a line that says "After 12/7, exclude the ship in Slot 5000 of the DB", and some modder puts USS Enterprise in that slot two years from now, oh the howls!

Saying no one is losing sleep over this is not an insult. I'd wager that the people on this forum as a body have nearly 100% knowledge that she's still there in Pearl as a war tomb. The comment was directed at the game. And in this case excluding her was the right call.

quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

Understood however the "not losing sleep" post is insulting because it makes my question seem worthless or unimportant. I asked a simple question and anyone who would post that is just trolling. Now as far at the Utah herself goes, perhaps a little bit of code concerning her alone would have solved the problem. I understand it's more work but it makes sense if you are wanting the most historical accurate OB in the history of gaming (and really you are right, there is nothing more to do with her).... other then trivia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

Understood however the "not losing sleep" post is insulting because it makes my question seem worthless or unimportant. I asked a simple question and anyone who would post that is just trolling. Now as far at the Utah herself goes, perhaps a little bit of code concerning her alone would have solved the problem. I understand it's more work but it makes sense if you are wanting the most historical accurate OB in the history of gaming (and really you are right, there is nothing more to do with her).... other then trivia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

I find it ironic with all the extreme detail in this game (one that is even modeling individual aircraft engine production including specific engine types and the almost insane modeling of ship repair including individual mounts etc...) that a historical ship such as the USS Utah was left out of Pearl Harbor for any reason. The fact is she was a target and took valuable torpedoes that could have been used against other ships (and are being used against other ships in the model.) I would think UTAH would add something to support if anything because she was a training ship.
BTW, The UTAH still sits there to this day on the bottom, rusting away and her dead heroic crew is probably not going to lose any sleep over this either.
Your "comment" contributed nothing to this topic other then a diss.

/

There are at least two problems with including the Utah; both have been mentioned.

1) There's no need for her to be a torpedo "magnet" to keep things "fair." Whatever would be allocated to her can, in the game, instead flow to USS Pennsylvania. Those MK 666 Drydock-Jumping torpedoes are a bear.

2) The more serious issue, Don, who coded much or all of the naval routines, mentioned. If you put Utah in the OOB she is operated on by the EXE code same as any ship. Which means she can be repaired and operated with the fleet, an event for which no historical record exists. How to upgrade? What weapons to assign? If you somehow get around that and want to leave her as a hulk after the first turn --IOW, for over 1500 more turns--she sits there in Pearl taking up memory and processing in every shipyard phase. In the repair model there's no way to stop her crew from working on her, so she gradually gets fixed less major repairs. But she can't go anywhere. She just clutters up the repair reports for four-plus years.

If you try to exclude her after 12/7 and the torpedo magnet issue is gone you have to mess with the EXE, and putting a specific ship in the EXE could easily break scenarios. A ship is a data issue, not a code issue. If you code in a line that says "After 12/7, exclude the ship in Slot 5000 of the DB", and some modder puts USS Enterprise in that slot two years from now, oh the howls!

Saying no one is losing sleep over this is not an insult. I'd wager that the people on this forum as a body have nearly 100% knowledge that she's still there in Pearl as a war tomb. The comment was directed at the game. And in this case excluding her was the right call.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

The Royal Navy did use HMS Centurion as an extemporised flak ship during one of the Malta convoys, Vigorous I think. Centurion was a demilitarised King George V class dreadnought, converted to a target ship in the 1920's. However I think that her use reflects the somewhat desperate situation that the RN was in the summer of 1942. I am not sure that the USN was ever in such desperate straits as to have ever thought about trying to do something with the Utah. They never bothered turning the Wyoming back into a BB so even less reason to suspect that they may have thought about the Utah

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

The Royal Navy did use HMS Centurion as an extemporised flak ship during one of the Malta convoys, Vigorous I think. Centurion was a demilitarised King George V class dreadnought, converted to a target ship in the 1920's. However I think that her use reflects the somewhat desperate situation that the RN was in the summer of 1942. I am not sure that the USN was ever in such desperate straits as to have ever thought about trying to do something with the Utah. They never bothered turning the Wyoming back into a BB so even less reason to suspect that they may have thought about the Utah

I agree. Wyoming was a gunnery training ship and Utah was (pre-war) an AA training ship. Both would almost definitely continued in those duties - and AE has no feature for training ships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
And oh, how you never tire of reminding people how tired you are of them, John. Change the disc sometime, maybe?