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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff

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This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/8/2014 12:22:50 AM

rook749

Posts: 1105
Joined: 12/21/2006
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Attempting my first PBEM against a human opponent. I will be playing am playing AirGriff whom has played some 2 x 2 games as the Allies but this is his 1st time as Japan.

I will take any help I can get, we should be getting under way in the next week or so as he is working on the last phases of his evil plan for world domination.

Post #: 1

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/8/2014 12:23:10 AM

rook749

Posts: 1105
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

Settings
� Dababes A mod, Scenario 28
� Stock map
� Stacking limits installed
� 2 day turns
� Fog of War
� Advanced Weather
� Allied Damage Control
� PDU
� Historical First Turn OFF
� December 7th Surprise
� Reliable USN Torpedoes OFF
� Realistic R&D
� No Unit Withdrawals OFF
� Reinforcements Fixed for both sides
� Combat Reports
� Auto Sub Ops OFF
� TF Move Radious
� Plane Move Radius
� Set All Facilities to Expand at Start OFF
� Automatic Upgrade Ships and Air Groups OFF
� Accept Air and Ground Replacements OFF

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 2

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/8/2014 12:25:27 AM

rook749

Posts: 1105
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

House Rules
----------------

Japanese Specific

1. No hunting of the US CV�s for the first 2 turns. If KB stumbles on them, then so be it, but IJ will not deliberately hunt them.
2. Kwangtung command units cannot leave Korea/Manchukuo unless full PP�s are paid.
3. Royal Thai Army cannot leave Thailand
4. Japanese may not sail past Singapore to invade the west coast of Malaya while Singapore is British controlled.
5. Only Glen floatplanes on submarines (or Serians if subs arrived so equipped, ic I400�s).

Allied Specific
----------------

1. 1st turn
a. Allies can only move already formed TF�s, except off map bases.
b. Allies can change aircraft orders, but not move them. Only exceptions are AVG and Soviet forces.
c. Chinese can do anything (not Hong Kong)
2. No allied non-Chinese LCU may enter China until 1944 and then only USA ENG and HQ.
a. Exceptions: Provided that the Allies control Burma, Thailand, Indo-China, and Luzon, the Allied non-Chinese LCU�s may then use Chinese bases provided that they are not operating with Chinese LCU�s present in the hex and the date is after 1 Jan 1945. If China is ever completely conquered, or Chungking is the only Chinese base controlled by the Allies, or the Chinese are down to only 2 cities, then these restrictions do not apply.
3. No Corsairs allowed on US CV�s until 1/44 except for air transport purposes.
4. HMS Implacable�s fighters must remain Seafires or Hellcats, as Corsairs were too big for it.

Both Sides
----------

1. No Naval Attack by Allied land based 2E bombers under 1000� until 6/42
2. 4E bombers: no rules, but note that IJ player is skeptical and reserves the right to open a discussion for a house rule on these if it seems the game is not accurately portraying them at low altitudes.
3. Landings only on base or dot hexes.
4. Submarines may not make naval landing on any opposed hex.
5. City Attack strategic bombing is not permitted until 7/1/42.
6. No strategic bombing in or out of China unless or until US or British troops are there as outlined and allowed above.
7. Gentlemen�s agreement not to bomb Chinese airfields for the sole purpose of destroying supply. This is a somewhat loose arrangement since airfields would be considered valid targets if the hex has opposing troops, or if intel detects large numbers of aircraft based there. THIS IS ONLY IN CHINA.
8. Only the IJ Kwantung Army Command units must pay full PP price to change commands. All other command changes can be worked as the player sees fit.
9. House Rules can be renegotiated at any time if either player feels they are not effective, or circumstances arise that warrant changing, adding or deleting HR�s.
10. If a real commander wouldn�t do it, then don�t do it. If you thing what you are about to do is gamey, ask yourself if a real commander would do it and let that guide your play.

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 3

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/8/2014 12:31:42 AM

rook749

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Joined: 12/21/2006
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I will be ripping the basic plan for defense from Sardaukar's Plan as where I will fight to hold and where I will do a limited Sir Robin.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2564541&mpage=1&key=Newbies

On this map, there are outer limits of maximum theoretical allowed Japanese expansion in BLUE. On your side of that line are areas that you SHOULD DEFEND AND KEEP. You should of course fight for bases outside these absolute limits, but not to death. Of course, some bases like Efate and Luganville in South Pacific may be difficult to reinforce in early game and may fall to Japanese even when inside the BLUE limit.

In RED are places you should start reinforcing IMMEDIATELY or as soon as you have troops available. You will have quite limited troops available in Dec 41, so you need to prioritize.

In GREEN are your major Troop, Supply and Fuel Transportation routes. It's not coincidence that they are close to BLUE and RED areas, you need to keep your supply routes open.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 4

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/8/2014 7:01:51 PM

Andav

Posts: 474
Joined: 5/8/2007
Status: offline

Hi Rook,

quote:

7. Gentlemen�s agreement not to bomb Chinese airfields for the sole purpose of destroying supply. This is a somewhat loose arrangement since airfields would be considered valid targets if the hex has opposing troops, or if intel detects large numbers of aircraft based there. THIS IS ONLY IN CHINA.

This is an interesting/different "agreement". Does this go both ways? Allies can't bomb the Japanese held airfields in China? How are you going to enforce this? While the Japanese should still roll over China if they want, it is a nice advantage for the Allies.

One thing that caused me the most grief in China as a Japanese player on a stacking limit map was Chinese units stacked near the max in pretty much anything but open terrain. These stacks proved very hard to move even when they were out of supplies.

Wa

Edit: Stupid grammer and such ...

< Message edited by Andav -- 1/8/2014 8:03:27 PM >

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 5

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/13/2014 8:33:22 PM

rook749

Posts: 1105
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav

This is an interesting/different "agreement". Does this go both ways? Allies can't bomb the Japanese held airfields in China? How are you going to enforce this? While the Japanese should still roll over China if they want, it is a nice advantage for the Allies.

One thing that caused me the most grief in China as a Japanese player on a stacking limit map was Chinese units stacked near the max in pretty much anything but open terrain. These stacks proved very hard to move even when they were out of supplies.

All good questions, its mainly vs the Allies but we are going to work on this as we go through the game. The main goal is to prevent endless bombing of airfields that are closed and that are not being repair.

As far as the stacking limits comment that is may basic plan in China hold areas in bad non clear terrain and pray he takes is army elsewhere.

Rook749

(in reply to Andav)

Post #: 6

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/13/2014 8:35:39 PM

rook749

Posts: 1105
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

I should have the 1st turn from Japan this week so soon it will begin. As a side note we were able to get the change is one day and two day turns to work in some testing.

So we will run the 1st turn as a 1 day turn and then all other turns as 2 day turns.

Rook749

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 7

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/13/2014 9:26:38 PM

rook749

Posts: 1105
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

General Strategic Overview
----------------
Given I have no idea what AirGriff tends to do or what his overall plan of attack, until I can determine his overall all focus, China, India, Australia, hold the historic perimeter I am simply going to hold the areas as outlined above and try to preserve my CV�s as a force in being. Overall I am going to try to build for a massive Oct of �43 offensive via Burma but this may or may not be what occurs.

China
----------------
Hold the until relieved or dead. Use max stacking limits in bad terrain to hold as much of the industry and supplies for a long as possible. Air Transport as much supply to China as possible. This is one area vs a real human I feel will be an issue as I expect to lose most if not all of China simply due to the fact I have no idea how to defend vs a concentrated offensive.

India
----------------
Will send both Australian Divisions and the 18th UK to India. The 18th will Hold Bombay and the two Australian Divisions will hold the Calcutta region. One Indian Brigade at sea will go to Ceylon to delay/hold this area. One Indian Brigade at sea will go to Port Blair to delay/hold this area. All other units will rest, train and hold the India/Burma border after detachments to hold the coast.

Australia
----------------
Will hold the US division that arrives here to offset the two divisions left in India. Major effort to hold all Perth and the entire Easter Coast. Port Moresby and Horn Island will be left to hold with minimal (if any) reinforcements.

Singapore
----------------
No new units will be committed, but single ship supply convoys will try and slip though at the start until losses are too high. All units will fall back and recombine at Singapore as fast as possible.

DEI
----------------
As many units as possible fall back to one or two points and hold for as long as possible. Need to look at a more details plan in this area.

Burma
----------------
Units that can recombine fall back to Rangoon to dig in and hold. Hold the Air over Rangoon as long as possible for single ship convoys and bring supply in and fuel out. Hold the road open to China as long as possible and then fall back to the India/Burma border and then hold here at all costs unless he lands behind the lines in India.

Christmas Island
----------------
This will become my middle base to route all convoys around as the convoy system gets rolling. It will also become a supply point to fuel the advance. It will feed Pago Pago and Suva as my forward bases.

CV�s
----------------
Will be split into single ship task Forces and grouped together as follows: (1) Two Task Forces will hang out near Christmas Island under massive air cover to hit free targets as they appear. (2) Two Task Forces will hang out around Dutch Harbor to hit free targets as they appear. (3) All other CV�s will hang out at Pearl and upgrade and swap with other CV�s as needed.

Submarines
----------------
Will harass the DEI area and try to slow down the offensive in this area as much as possible.

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 8

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/19/2014 4:01:13 PM

rook749

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The fist turn from AirGriff and been received and the allied orders and getting ready to be sent out.

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 9

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/19/2014 9:38:32 PM

rook749

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Joined: 12/21/2006
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Breaking news -

The Air Attacked went into Pearl Harbor there was no other major air raid on ships, other then the attack into Singapore (will note later).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 44 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 61
B5N2 Kate x 144
D3A1 Val x 126

Allied aircraft
P-40B Warhawk x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 5 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 8 damaged
D3A1 Val: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 11, Torpedo hits 3, on fire
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
CM Oglala, Bomb hits 2, on fire
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 1
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DM Tracy, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1
DD Blue, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Detroit, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
CL Honolulu, Torpedo hits 1
DD Chew, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 1
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1
AD Whitney, Bomb hits 1
DM Gamble, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
28 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Repair Shipyard hits 5
Port hits 19
Port fuel hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
3 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
25 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
17 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
18 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
16 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
13 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
18th PG/19th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
18th PG/44th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 81 minutes
18th PG/73rd PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes

Magazine explodes on DD Blue (it will sink)

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 10

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/19/2014 9:41:04 PM

rook749

Posts: 1105
Joined: 12/21/2006
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And the Air Raid on Singapore, not too bad and the CAP did some nice damage to the unescorted bombers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Singapore , at 50,84

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 72

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 9 destroyed, 13 damaged
G3M2 Nell: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
Vildebeest III: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
CL Mauritius, Bomb hits 4
DM Stronghold, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK British Judge, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CM Kung Wo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AMc Jerantut, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
DD Isis, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAKL Larut, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Jupiter, Bomb hits 1
AG Pangkor, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAP Sin Kheng Seng, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAKL Lyemun, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAP Dominion Monarch, Bomb hits 1
xAK Zannis Cambanis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Mobilfuel, Bomb hits 1
DD Vendetta, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Demodocus, Bomb hits 1

Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 4
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 10000 feet *
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
2 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 10000 feet *
City Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
6 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
21 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 10000 feet *
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.243 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 79 minutes
No.453 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (3 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
No.488 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 94 minutes

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 11

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/19/2014 9:42:46 PM

rook749

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Joined: 12/21/2006
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And here is a breakdown of the damage to the battle fleet at Pearl and the air losses for the turn.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rook749 -- 1/19/2014 10:45:21 PM >

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 12

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/19/2014 9:49:22 PM

rook749

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Joined: 12/21/2006
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All Landings or Combats succeeded, what my next course of action will be but I don't expect his turn back for a couple of days.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rook749 -- 1/19/2014 10:49:31 PM >

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 13

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 3:06:03 PM

rook749

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Joined: 12/21/2006
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Philippines

After much soul searching, Ihave decided to fall back to Manila. Not sure if this is the right call or not but I am open for other thoughts.

1. Given the stacking limits this is the only hex that can all all my units.
2. It is Urban and that helps on defense.
3. It will produce some supplies with the LI.
4. It has 0 fort level vs Bataan at Level 2 but we have started this for construction.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rook749 -- 1/21/2014 4:06:34 PM >

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 14

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 3:13:03 PM

rook749

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Joined: 12/21/2006
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Singapore

The fall back to Singapore has begun. The plan is to replace the commander for the Malayan Army and the III Indian Corp once I have the PP's. All the the non-aa and eng units will be set to rest until their moral is maxed and then will enter combat mode so I can use their engineers for fort construction.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 15

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 4:16:00 PM

Simonsez

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Joined: 12/7/2011
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Do you plan to stuff Bataan full of any and all useless base forces that you can to give the appearance of defending it? As son as Bataan is eliminated, Manilla becomes exposed.

_____________________________

Simonsez

It's a trap!

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 16

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 4:41:18 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rook749

Philippines

After much soul searching, Ihave decided to fall back to Manila. Not sure if this is the right call or not but I am open for other thoughts.

1. Given the stacking limits this is the only hex that can all all my units.
2. It is Urban and that helps on defense.
3. It will produce some supplies with the LI.
4. It has 0 fort level vs Bataan at Level 2 but we have started this for construction.

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 17

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 4:46:22 PM

rook749

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Joined: 12/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simonsez

Do you plan to stuff Bataan full of any and all useless base forces that you can to give the appearance of defending it? As son as Bataan is eliminated, Manilla becomes exposed.

I had not thought about it, but now that you bring it up then its not a bad idea.

Rook749

(in reply to Simonsez)

Post #: 18

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 4:50:36 PM

rook749

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Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

[/quote]

If you let Japan take Bataan, they can move in minesweepers to clear out the mines in both Bataan and Manila, then move up BB's to bombard Manila. Your coastal guns in Manila are decent, but IIRC they're outranged by the Japanese BB batteries.

The only thing worth holding Manila for is the dribble of supply production. IMO, it isn't worth it when you compare it to the advantages to holding Clark.

Basically:

- Manila: a little supply production, exposed to BB bombardments once Bataan falls. x2 terrain bonus
- Clark: no supply production, but denies Japan the biggest AF on Luzon. x3 terrain bonus AND once captured by Japan, troops will retreat to Bataan to fight it out.
[/quote]

So then stuff everything that fights plus the required support into Clark and then fight from the forts plus x3 Terrain. Hold until I get smashed and then fall back to Bataan and fight a second time with units that are roughed up and likely out of supply but under forts for a long as I hold.

All the while burning supply of his and time.....

This might be a better option.

Rook749

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 19

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 4:51:16 PM

rook749

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Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline

And Thanks mind_messing and Simonsez for the thoughts and these help a lot.

Rook749

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 20

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 5:02:23 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rook749

If you let Japan take Bataan, they can move in minesweepers to clear out the mines in both Bataan and Manila, then move up BB's to bombard Manila. Your coastal guns in Manila are decent, but IIRC they're outranged by the Japanese BB batteries.

The only thing worth holding Manila for is the dribble of supply production. IMO, it isn't worth it when you compare it to the advantages to holding Clark.

Basically:

- Manila: a little supply production, exposed to BB bombardments once Bataan falls. x2 terrain bonus
- Clark: no supply production, but denies Japan the biggest AF on Luzon. x3 terrain bonus AND once captured by Japan, troops will retreat to Bataan to fight it out.

So then stuff everything that fights plus the required support into Clark and then fight from the forts plus x3 Terrain. Hold until I get smashed and then fall back to Bataan and fight a second time with units that are roughed up and likely out of supply but under forts for a long as I hold.

All the while burning supply of his and time.....

This might be a better option.

Rook749

Send the poor quality Phillipine Army units to Manila. Their job is to keep Manila producing supplies for as long as possible. Japan will likely take Manila first, and these units will be wrecked, but retreat to Clark, where they join the better quality US Army and Marine units in holding Clark behind that x3 bonus and forts. Holding Manila forces your opponent to take Manila from you, he can't just sit and let you harvest the supplies from the Phillipines.

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 21

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 5:06:02 PM

Spidery

Posts: 1821
Joined: 10/6/2012
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline

quote:

If you let Japan take Bataan, they can move in minesweepers to clear out the mines in both Bataan and Manila, then move up BB's to bombard Manila. Your coastal guns in Manila are decent, but IIRC they're outranged by the Japanese BB batteries.

My experience is that clearing the mines in Manila was impractical because of coastal gunfire.

BB bombardments of Manila are effective but:
- tie up some ships
- use a lot of supply
- damage the LI and shipyard at Manila which represents another big supply hit
- if the BB bombard with escorts then some escorts hit mines, if they attack without escorts maybe you can use some subs effectively.

If you hole up in Bataan then the Japanese do not need to attack - they can wait for attrition. If you hole up in Manila the small amount of supply generation means they will eventually need to attack.

Also, if regular BB runs are bombarding Manila, why not drop a few sub-layed mines in Bataan.

Mainly because of the damage to the industry at Manila, I think the Manila option is better.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 22

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 5:12:42 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidery

quote:

If you let Japan take Bataan, they can move in minesweepers to clear out the mines in both Bataan and Manila, then move up BB's to bombard Manila. Your coastal guns in Manila are decent, but IIRC they're outranged by the Japanese BB batteries.

My experience is that clearing the mines in Manila was impractical because of coastal gunfire.

BB bombardments of Manila are effective but:
- tie up some ships
- use a lot of supply
- damage the LI and shipyard at Manila which represents another big supply hit
- if the BB bombard with escorts then some escorts hit mines, if they attack without escorts maybe you can use some subs effectively.

If you hole up in Bataan then the Japanese do not need to attack - they can wait for attrition. If you hole up in Manila the small amount of supply generation means they will eventually need to attack.

Also, if regular BB runs are bombarding Manila, why not drop a few sub-layed mines in Bataan.

Mainly because of the damage to the industry at Manila, I think the Manila option is better.

IIRC, if you seed a bombardment task force with DMS's, they clear the mines for the bombardment ships DURING the bombardment (meaning return fire is suppressed). Combine this with keeping the BB's at maximum range (so only the BB's can fire their main guns and nothing else) and it drastically reduces the impact mines can have. This is going from a half-remembered AAR a long, long time ago, so I might be completely wrong.

I think you're over-stating the value of the Manila LI and repair yards. Yes, they're handy, but insignificant in the grand scheme (LI there is aplenty in China and elsewhere, and Hong Kong has a better repair yard only a short distance away). If it was a trade-off between having the Manila infrastructure destroyed or having all the IJA troops used in the siege free for deployment elsewhere a month or two ahead of schedual, I'd take the latter every time.

(in reply to Spidery)

Post #: 23

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 5:49:25 PM

Spidery

Posts: 1821
Joined: 10/6/2012
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:

IIRC, if you seed a bombardment task force with DMS's, they clear the mines for the bombardment ships DURING the bombardment (meaning return fire is suppressed). Combine this with keeping the BB's at maximum range (so only the BB's can fire their main guns and nothing else) and it drastically reduces the impact mines can have. This is going from a half-remembered AAR a long, long time ago, so I might be completely wrong.

Went in with BB and DMS for the first attack, max range setting, cleared 7 mines, suffered 3 hits from coastal gunfire that put the DMS out of action. Fortunately, the DMS made it to Bataan and disbanded there. Bombardment attack was then listed separately.

Changed to using BB and DD at max range. 2 DD hit mines over about 3 weeks of attacks. Both disbanded okay in Bataan. After that changed to using BB by themselves and suffered no more mine hits.

The Japanese can expect about 1000 days of supply generation from Manila so 100 LI is 100,000 supply. This may only be 0.3% of the total Japanese supply but it is only one small action. (I also used about 10,000 supply in BB ammunition.)

It is a marginal call, IMO the Manila option gives more potential problems for the Japanese player.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 24

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 5:58:16 PM

mind_messing

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Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidery

quote:

IIRC, if you seed a bombardment task force with DMS's, they clear the mines for the bombardment ships DURING the bombardment (meaning return fire is suppressed). Combine this with keeping the BB's at maximum range (so only the BB's can fire their main guns and nothing else) and it drastically reduces the impact mines can have. This is going from a half-remembered AAR a long, long time ago, so I might be completely wrong.

Went in with BB and DMS for the first attack, max range setting, cleared 7 mines, suffered 3 hits from coastal gunfire that put the DMS out of action. Fortunately, the DMS made it to Bataan and disbanded there. Bombardment attack was then listed separately.

Changed to using BB and DD at max range. 2 DD hit mines over about 3 weeks of attacks. Both disbanded okay in Bataan. After that changed to using BB by themselves and suffered no more mine hits.

The Japanese can expect about 1000 days of supply generation from Manila so 100 LI is 100,000 supply. This may only be 0.3% of the total Japanese supply but it is only one small action. (I also used about 10,000 supply in BB ammunition.)

It is a marginal call, IMO the Manila option gives more potential problems for the Japanese player.

Manila may only be "one small action", but along with Bataan and Clark its small actions that tie down a significant proportion of the IJA thats unrestricted at the games start. A fair exchange between 0.3% of total supply production and 100,000 supply over three or so years in return for being able to get unrestricted troops to my forward defences? I'd take that over some LI and repair yards any day.

(in reply to Spidery)

Post #: 25

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 6:56:10 PM

rook749

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mind_messing does that fact I suffer a penalty in supply and disruption over 45,000 in Clark and Bataan effect your thinking at all? Would you over stack and run out of supply faster or just stack to the max in both hexes and try and rotated units?

Ant thank everyone for the input as I still don't know what I am doing but I am learning a lot from all the input.

Rook749

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 26

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 7:56:08 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rook749

mind_messing does that fact I suffer a penalty in supply and disruption over 45,000 in Clark and Bataan effect your thinking at all? Would you over stack and run out of supply faster or just stack to the max in both hexes and try and rotated units?

Ant thank everyone for the input as I still don't know what I am doing but I am learning a lot from all the input.

Rook749

You're going to run out of supply on Luzon. Nothing you can do to change that.

Seeing as it's a stacking limits game, do your best to spread troops out between the three to avoid overstacking and wasting supply needlessly. Try to keep the bulk of your best troops in Clark (but keep it below that magic 45k stacking limit) and send the Philipine Army units to try to hold Manila.

Keep in mind, I've never played a game with stacking limits, so take this with a grain of salt.

However, keep in mind, you get the x3 terrain bonus regardless of your supply state. If your men have no ammo or are enjoying a four course meal three times a day, they still get the bonus.

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 27

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 8:24:29 PM

rook749

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In Summary -

The staking limits in Bataan and Clark are 45K and Manila is 85k. I start with a total maximum troop load of ~81K in the Philippines. This is before any LCU arrivals or reinforcements. There is also the caveat that not all of the units can move and/or will not make it back to the fall back positions. This leaves two options -

1) Put the Best 45K of Combat units (with just above the needed support levels in Clark, and the maybe 20K of the next best combat units in Bataan and pull all of the supply to Bataan and stuff anything left in Manila.

2) Put all of the combat units into Manila, and then all of the unneeded support units into Clark to hold and make him assault and burn supply. These units then fall back to Bataan and repeat while the main force holds Manila until he gets around to me.

If he really knows his stuff (or gets good advise) he will sweep the mines out of the Bataan and then the same things in Manila and then have to pull the BB's back from Singapore/DEI to hit me hard there.

It comes down to if which do I value more making him destroy the LI in Manila and pulling his BB's back or trying to inflict the most damage/time in two big battles for Clark and Bataan. With the Advantage in one case of holding Clark for longer and the largest airfield on the island to deny it to him.

Did I miss anything?

Rook749

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 28

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 8:36:47 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rook749

In Summary -

The staking limits in Bataan and Clark are 45K and Manila is 85k. I start with a total maximum troop load of ~81K in the Philippines. This is before any LCU arrivals or reinforcements. There is also the caveat that not all of the units can move and/or will not make it back to the fall back positions. This leaves two options -

1) Put the Best 45K of Combat units (with just above the needed support levels in Clark, and the maybe 20K of the next best combat units in Bataan and pull all of the supply to Bataan and stuff anything left in Manila.

2) Put all of the combat units into Manila, and then all of the unneeded support units into Clark to hold and make him assault and burn supply. These units then fall back to Bataan and repeat while the main force holds Manila until he gets around to me.

If he really knows his stuff (or gets good advise) he will sweep the mines out of the Bataan and then the same things in Manila and then have to pull the BB's back from Singapore/DEI to hit me hard there.

It comes down to if which do I value more making him destroy the LI in Manila and pulling his BB's back or trying to inflict the most damage/time in two big battles for Clark and Bataan. With the Advantage in one case of holding Clark for longer and the largest airfield on the island to deny it to him.

Did I miss anything?

Rook749

Nope.

The last thing I'll say is that the LI in Manila isn't significant in the slightest. He'll capture a shedload of the stuff as he advances, and if the Manila LI is trashed, there will be no real impact.

The troops he'll have to commit to the Philipines, however, are significant. There's plenty of places he can send them to cause trouble, and delaying there redeployment elsewhere is is more important than the damaging of a bunch of LI, IMO.

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 29

RE: This will End Badly Rook749 vs AirGriff - 1/21/2014 9:38:32 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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EDIT: Hadn't read above enough!

Either way it doesn't matter. Yes, it'll take some time. It will fall. The best thing you can do is try to save the B-17s and some base forces. Let the rest delay wherever you want. Playing Japan I wouldn't care either way.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/21/2014 10:44:59 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to rook749)

Post #: 30

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