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RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG

 
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RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/3/2014 8:03:37 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		Kondor thanks, interesting, I will try to spend a little time looking at that when I'm back in Moscow. I'm generally not very big on conspiracy theories but with Russia in particular you never know...

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 61
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/4/2014 3:40:19 AM   
mikeCK

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kondor999


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

The time I spent boots on the ground in NATO, 1974-1977, I knew very few that thought we were much of anything but a speed bump. The question was just how much we could slow them up. How much room would we give the follow up forces to deal with them. We all felt that our equipment and training was superior to the WP "BUT" the Germans had been in WWII as well and they lost the war hands down using that formula in the 40's.

Nobody realistically thought we could hold without the use of battlefield nukes during my time frame.

Good Hunting.

MR


I've heard the same thing from that time period. I always thought 1979 was when they had their best chance, when the "Correlation of Forces" was most in the Soviet's favor. By '85, I think we had started to really redress the balance and the chance was lost (Thank You God).


Yeah, I don't think it was until Ronald Reagan and his administration that the military began to think about and plan to win a conventional war. Prior to that, the assumption was tactical nukes would be used liberally.

(in reply to erichswafford)
Post #: 62
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/4/2014 8:18:33 AM   
Alchenar

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeCK


quote:

ORIGINAL: kondor999


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

The time I spent boots on the ground in NATO, 1974-1977, I knew very few that thought we were much of anything but a speed bump. The question was just how much we could slow them up. How much room would we give the follow up forces to deal with them. We all felt that our equipment and training was superior to the WP "BUT" the Germans had been in WWII as well and they lost the war hands down using that formula in the 40's.

Nobody realistically thought we could hold without the use of battlefield nukes during my time frame.

Good Hunting.

MR


I've heard the same thing from that time period. I always thought 1979 was when they had their best chance, when the "Correlation of Forces" was most in the Soviet's favor. By '85, I think we had started to really redress the balance and the chance was lost (Thank You God).


Yeah, I don't think it was until Ronald Reagan and his administration that the military began to think about and plan to win a conventional war. Prior to that, the assumption was tactical nukes would be used liberally.


Reagan's presidency coincides with a few things that make winning a conventional war not-laughable - all the weapons projects of the 70's reach production and NATO finally gets tanks and planes and helicopters that are qualitatively better rather than worse than their Soviet counterparts. Before then the West is repeatedly playing catch-up to the Soviets in tanks and C&C systems haven't had the payoff of the massive investment in them that we've seen in the Gulf Wars.

Are there any plans to (oh I guess you can't answer this) go backwards a decade or two in an expansion pack?

< Message edited by Alchenar -- 1/4/2014 9:20:23 AM >

(in reply to mikeCK)
Post #: 63
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/4/2014 4:26:53 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

Are there any plans to (oh I guess you can't answer this) go backwards a decade or two in an expansion pack?


Yes, we can answer that. Yes, there are plans to cover everything from WWII through future wars if we all live long enough.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Alchenar)
Post #: 64
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/8/2014 2:35:41 PM   
821Bobo


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From: Slovakia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarneTanker

Hey All: To clarify, soviet Plt Leader and above had radios, but not the wing tanks. Their formations were largely wedge and the leader tanks were usually out in front. Wing tanks followed the hand signals or the lead of their leadership tanks and often fired in volley at single targets to overwhelm them.


I can not believe that NATO intel had such wrong information. All Soviet tanks build from 1946 on, had radios.
In Czechoslovak army, all AVFs had radios too.

(in reply to Mark Florio)
Post #: 65
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/8/2014 8:13:55 PM   
bayonetbrant

 

Posts: 431
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
I can not believe that NATO intel had such wrong information. All Soviet tanks build from 1946 on, had radios.


Some of them might have had mounts in them to put radios, but that doesn't mean they had radios on-board.

That said, I have personally seen a few, and seen photos of a LOT, of T64s and T72s without radio mounts, much less radios.
Those photos all came from CFE inspections from 87-88 and 94-97, and from a source I trust overwhelmingly (I call him "dad" most of the time).

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 66
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/8/2014 10:43:55 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		Am I missing something? Reading DIA's The Motorized Rifle Battalion, in page 34 says that all individual tanks and BMPs are equipped with the R-123 radio.

(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 67
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/9/2014 7:17:00 AM   
chrisol

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 1/5/2008
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline 		Could I ask, in a related way, what the reason is for the command radius of HQ units ? - is this related to reliable radio transmission, or being able to have a local understanding of the battlefield ? - or is it that HQs at this level were simply expected to be within quick driving distance of their troops ?

Thanks
Chris

(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 68
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/9/2014 8:36:58 AM   
821Bobo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

Some of them might have had mounts in them to put radios, but that doesn't mean they had radios on-board.

That said, I have personally seen a few, and seen photos of a LOT, of T64s and T72s without radio mounts, much less radios.
Those photos all came from CFE inspections from 87-88 and 94-97, and from a source I trust overwhelmingly (I call him "dad" most of the time).


Well my dad was motorized rifle's platoon leader in the mid 70s. He says that all AFVs were equipped with radios.
Problem was, that soviet radios could have been easily jammed. In this case hand signals should be used.

(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 69
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/9/2014 8:49:37 AM   
821Bobo


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From: Slovakia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panta

Am I missing something? Reading DIA's The Motorized Rifle Battalion, in page 34 says that all individual tanks and BMPs are equipped with the R-123 radio.


Indeed all AFVs had radios. For instance
All T-55 were equipped with R-112/R-113. Later there were changed for R-123 and R-173. Commander tanks(from battalion leader) had one additional radio.
First T-72s were equipped with R-123, later with R-173. Commander tanks(from company leader) had one additional radio(R-130).

(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 70
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/9/2014 8:53:40 AM   
Alchenar

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline 		They were making hand gestures in 1940. It seems like someone's confused the old WW2 stories with the extra command tank radio that 821Bobo points out.

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 71
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/9/2014 1:29:44 PM   
mikeCK

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline 		Perhaps any if those radios are "line of sight" so you need to have a direct line to the unit. At some point, curvature of the earth and hills obstruct LoS radios. Just a guess. I'm trying to remember back to 88-92 when I was in (11B... Which is infantry...not engineer as depicted in test of wills BTW) if our radios were LoS and I believe they were. You didn't have to actually see the guy of course but significant terrain would obstruct.

(in reply to chrisol)
Post #: 72
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/9/2014 4:40:54 PM   
TheWombat_matrixforum

 

Posts: 469
Joined: 8/2/2003
Status: offline 		Armies are big things, especially Cold War era Pact armies. It's pretty likely that there was a discrepancy between what was on paper and what was in the field, as is true in most military organizations. Add to the that the differences between GSFG Cat I divisions and Cat III divisions back in the Urals differing levels of leadership, etc., and it's probably most likely that there was a variety of levels of radio equipment (and other stuff) across the spectrum.

Then, and more important for a game, you have to figure out what the in-game impact of having or not having a radio is. Which is itself open to discussion.....

(in reply to mikeCK)
Post #: 73
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/9/2014 6:45:46 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		If you don't have radios, you are impervious to Electronic Warfare!
I presume that the Soviet spearhead in the Fulda area should have counted with the crème de la crème of the WP divisions: Best tanks, plenty arty, air support and, last but not least, best troops and leaders...

< Message edited by Panta -- 1/9/2014 7:48:32 PM >

(in reply to TheWombat_matrixforum)
Post #: 74
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/9/2014 8:48:51 PM   
Tazak

 

Posts: 1452
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I've doubted the no radios aspect for the following:
a. night attacks would come to a grinding halt if not impossible
b. NATO would only need to KO 1 in 4 tanks to grind WP attacks to a stop
c. why put laser range finders, LWR, gun stabilizers and ATGW command systems into a tank but not put a radio in
d. image the flag signals for "NATO tank 1400m to the right behind 3rd tree left of the yellow house"



< Message edited by Tazak -- 1/9/2014 9:50:52 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Panta_slith)
Post #: 75
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/9/2014 9:25:02 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazak
b. NATO would only need to KO 1 in 4 tanks to grind WP attacks to a stop


Worse than that: their smallest maneuver tank/IFV unit is the company, which means, 10 vehicles, due to the lack of experienced officers/NCOs! Kill the right tank and the restwill follow the last orders like robots...

< Message edited by Panta -- 1/9/2014 10:28:23 PM >

(in reply to Tazak)
Post #: 76
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/13/2014 4:11:47 AM   
MikeAP

 

Posts: 266
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline 		#4 and #9 have been discussed.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3445200&mpage=1&key=

Some interesting bits in that forum. As a tanker in the real world, I'm not totally sold on the M1A1 performance in game, especially fighting the T80.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 77
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/13/2014 1:10:06 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeAP
As a tanker in the real world, I'm not totally sold on the M1A1 performance in game, especially fighting the T80.


Maybe you're not but the US Army is. They send units to the NTC, JRTC and JMRC. They all show the Soviet equipment more than capable of holding their own against any level of US equipment.

The first part of your statement that is mis-leading is T-80 what? You specifically name the M1A1 but leave the T-80 as generic. There are far more than one version of the T-80. While I agree that the earlier versions of the T-80 can be outfought by the M1A1, at distance, the more modern versions would give a very good account of itself by all indications.

If we want to get into Soviet SOP you will also find that most US units are outfought at those facilities by the training personnel using Soviet SOP. Now, we can go on and on, for decades, about how good or not each individual piece of equipment is vs another. You can agree with our research and data or not. If you don't those data points are moddable.

All I can tell you is that we are very much in line with what the US Army believes the capability of the equipment in the game is and we have had several discussions with them on it.

Good Hunting.
MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/13/2014 7:17:32 PM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to MikeAP)
Post #: 78
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/13/2014 3:31:37 PM   
Hexagon


Posts: 1133
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		Maybe the problem with soviet radios were more in how many were ready to use and how many were not ready... you know, have the main part of tanks in a depot... sure in no first line units could be a problem.

One thing is have the tanks with radios other have the tanks with operative radios... i think that the weapons manteinance is another world inside WP world

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 79
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/14/2014 12:56:03 AM   
MikeAP

 

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Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeAP
As a tanker in the real world, I'm not totally sold on the M1A1 performance in game, especially fighting the T80.


All I can tell you is that we are very much in line with what the US Army believes the capability of the equipment in the game is and we have had several discussions with them on it.

Good Hunting.
MR



Is that official correspondence or just talking with some folks who work at Leavenworth?

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 80
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/14/2014 1:57:17 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Across a broad spectrum.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to MikeAP)
Post #: 81
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/14/2014 10:26:58 AM   
Alchenar

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline 		Isn't it still just a universal truth that the determining factor in tank v tank combat is who spots and shoots first? Marginal differences in quality are not going to override the general presumption that the tank caught moving in the open is the one that's going to die.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 82
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/14/2014 12:44:59 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Depends on many factors. Seeing and shooting first is one of the most important factors.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Alchenar)
Post #: 83
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/21/2014 9:21:44 PM   
Russian Heel


Posts: 231
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Metro Station Vasileostrovskaya
Status: offline 		The "Soviet tanks had no radios" or "only PL tanks had radios that could transmit" are Cold War myths that continue to persist even in 2014. I can't believe it even persisted in the Cold War. Try to find a picture of a Soviet T-62 in Afghanistan without an antenna mounted... I was going to post some scans from my Russian language tank books that go in to tremendous detail, then I noticed how easy the picture were to find on Google.

Here is a link to the GSFG forum:

http://nazadvgsvg.ru/

Even if you don't speak Russian just randomly click on threads and you will see a billion candid pictures of Soviet troops in Germany from the 50s to 91 or so. Check out the vehicles in the background and notice the antennas.


(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 84
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/21/2014 9:33:23 PM   
Russian Heel


Posts: 231
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Metro Station Vasileostrovskaya
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Kondor thanks, interesting, I will try to spend a little time looking at that when I'm back in Moscow. I'm generally not very big on conspiracy theories but with Russia in particular you never know...


Что!?! This is the universally accepted truth in Russia, how could you have not heard it? But it is an indisputable fact that the Dec 31st assault into Grozny was conducted by green conscripts having just completed their initial intake training cycle while the professional army was held back initially. Whether it was interference from oligarchs, the continuing dispute between the military and Yeltsin, or an attempt to preserve the fighting strength of the professional army - I can't say, but it is clear something occurred to alter the original plan and it was meant to influence something.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 85
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/21/2014 10:43:26 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Welcome to the Forum Russian Heel.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Russian Heel)
Post #: 86
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/22/2014 2:13:00 PM   
Russian Heel


Posts: 231
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Metro Station Vasileostrovskaya
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarneTanker

Darwin, regarding your tank gunnery accuracy, I can vouch for the data. Looks the same as what we were dealing with in 88-89. The most common range of engagement in Germany was predicted to be at 1200 meters. The effective range for a 90% shot accuracy with thermals was closer to 3000 meters though. Due to terrain, most common engagement range and what we trained for in VII Corps, Tank Table 8 and 12 was 1200 meters.


Wait, what? I know this guy hasn't been on since Jan 5th, but I'm a real 3ID tanker too, (4-64 97-2000) and 3000 meters is not an effective range with 90% accuracy or whatever. You know how many dudes I've watched overline or shortline the hell out of the long range mover on TTVIII? A lot more than 10 percent of the shots at it and that is what, 2200 meters? Which brings me to my next head scratcher, what do you mean the range for TTVIII and TTXII was 1200 meters? It's multiple engagements at multiple ranges. Those engagements aren't set by Corps, they are outlined in 17-12.

(in reply to Mark Florio)
Post #: 87
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/22/2014 4:18:53 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Russian Heel
Wait, what? ... but I'm a real 3ID tanker too


Wait, what? You're a US tanker and not a Soviet tanker? Uh-huh, OK... It would be interesting to get a real perspective from the other side from someone who has personal experience from the 1980's. Not just "my website reference is better than yours" or "my dad says." C'mon. There was a lot of hype from both sides, but equally true is that both sides had some pretty good intel about published and unpublished capabilities. All soldiers gripe, a lot...

There's a whole lot of nit-picking going on here that really doesn't matter for THIS game at THIS scale. But hey, carry on. It's cheap entertainment while we wait for the v2.03 patch. IMHO, this game doing fine covering the basics. It still needs some improvements and enhancements, but there are bigger fish to fry than quibbling over individual vehicle radios and ballistics.

(in reply to Russian Heel)
Post #: 88
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/22/2014 5:28:47 PM   
Russian Heel


Posts: 231
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Metro Station Vasileostrovskaya
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Russian Heel
Wait, what? ... but I'm a real 3ID tanker too


Wait, what? You're a US tanker and not a Soviet tanker? Uh-huh, OK... It would be interesting to get a real perspective from the other side from someone who has personal experience from the 1980's. Not just "my website reference is better than yours" or "my dad says." C'mon. There was a lot of hype from both sides, but equally true is that both sides had some pretty good intel about published and unpublished capabilities. All soldiers gripe, a lot...

There's a whole lot of nit-picking going on here that really doesn't matter for THIS game at THIS scale. But hey, carry on. It's cheap entertainment while we wait for the v2.03 patch. IMHO, this game doing fine covering the basics. It still needs some improvements and enhancements, but there are bigger fish to fry than quibbling over individual vehicle radios and ballistics.

Well, I was an American tanker now I live in Russia with a father in law who was a Soviet tanker. Weird, I know. But I wasn't nit picking the game, from my experience I think the performance is modeled pretty good, more than pretty good. I was just scratching my head at some of the things in that post pertaining to M1 Tankin'.

From Broken TV Tankin':


To Russian family man:



Crazy life.




(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 89
RE: A few points from a real 3ID Tanker from 88-90 in FRG - 1/22/2014 5:51:21 PM   
daferg

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/22/2010
Status: offline 		I can confirm this is still true. When I was deployed to Iraq my entire Stryker platoon wanted to take out our leadership on a daily basis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

All armies of all nations are taught to take out the leaders.

Good Hunting.

MR

quote:

All armies of all nations are taught to take out the leaders.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 90
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