Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave?

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Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave?

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Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 10:20:49 AM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

Hey guys.

Recently through two very separate origins I have received info that somebody is offering to resell the game (without books) at a very cheap price (I think like 35 euros).

Of course it can be perfectly legal, if he gets tired of waiting for netplay or he is done with the game or his expectatives were not satisfied but...

This game is, as of now, only really usable (for very many of us) as a Netplay game, while we wait for the Ai edition. Solitaire is ok for practice and hotseat means moving to some guy's place and humping in and out of the chair like 300 in an hour (not kidding).

So, the game is for NetPlay now, and although NP is not working now, it is supposed to work somewhen in the future, so it's crucial to determine how to cede the rights in Matrix/slitherin.

It seems the offerer(s) volunteers to leave you the game, the user and password at Slitherin, and then you can change the password and email, and keep the user so you can NP.

To me it smells as a scam. What happens if this guy then recovers his password writes an email to Slitherin complaining that he has been pirated his email and he wants his account back?

Of course I guess this guy could only do so a number of times in case Slitherin has a minimum control on this...

Any input, other experiences, somebody bought or was offered and can correct what I am explaining? What is the Matrix position?

Post #: 1

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 10:45:50 AM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

I've gifted many Matrix Games over the years.

As recently as last year I gave away Distant Worlds with all expansions and Command Ops and the expansions as well as some other enticing games...I simply did not have the time nor the inclination to play them so passed them on in the hope someone would be able to.

When I had done so, I kept the games and keys for a week to make sure everything was ok, then removed them. The games are actually registered to me in the Members Area, but the new owners are well aware of this.

I'd hate to think peoples suspicions would cast doubt on the integrity of some people in this gaming community before there's any proof to the contrary - so I think it's a bit "early" to suggest it smells of a scam. They could be genuinely fed up with their purchase and want to move on.

You could of course be right - but innocent until proven guilty, eh?

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 2

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 10:48:44 AM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

Oh - and it does seem a bit weird to suggest "...game is, as of now, only really usable (for very many of us) as a Netplay game..." when Netplay isn't working. I thought the game at present was only really playable in solitaire?

If that's wrong, I apologise, but I thought Netplay had enough issues to consider it non-playable.

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 3

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 12:19:16 PM

Dabrion

Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline

I was considering this option and the got this reply from the Help Desk:

###############

[ 16 DEC 2013 08:39 by VPaulus ]
Hi Philipp,

I'm afraid that's not possible, as our system doesn't allow to transfer serial numbers from one account to another once the serial number is registered.

Kind Regards,

Paulo Costa
The Slitherine Group

[ 14 DEC 2013 14:30 by Dabrion ]
Hey Pablo!

I would like to have $litherine$ opinion on second hand trade. Can I sell my game to a third party or are there any objections? Would a potential third party be able to change registration details for the serial number, etc.?!

Thanks for your valued help!

Philipp

###############

I purchased the game on the Matrix Games website and it was automatically registered for my account. From this response I took it, that there is more of a technical incompetence than a principle problem.

_____________________________

�WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.�
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 4

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 12:37:40 PM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I've gifted many Matrix Games over the years.

As recently as last year I gave away Distant Worlds with all expansions and Command Ops and the expansions as well as some other enticing games...I simply did not have the time nor the inclination to play them so passed them on in the hope someone would be able to.

When I had done so, I kept the games and keys for a week to make sure everything was ok, then removed them. The games are actually registered to me in the Members Area, but the new owners are well aware of this.

I'd hate to think peoples suspicions would cast doubt on the integrity of some people in this gaming community before there's any proof to the contrary - so I think it's a bit "early" to suggest it smells of a scam. They could be genuinely fed up with their purchase and want to move on.

You could of course be right - but innocent until proven guilty, eh?

You cannot be so na�ve. Must be joking. Else, I have some jewels at home to sell...

Just joking about the jewels. For me and my friends these guys are totally unknown people. I don't think you'd buy a radio for your car to an unknown person in the street withouth the bill to proof the radio is his... Well, this is much more expensive than a radio.

People need to be considered innocent until proven opposite in trials. No in the rest of life, where everybody can be preventive or naive depending on his own experiences and his own way.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 5

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 12:41:20 PM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Oh - and it does seem a bit weird to suggest "...game is, as of now, only really usable (for very many of us) as a Netplay game..." when Netplay isn't working. I thought the game at present was only really playable in solitaire?

If that's wrong, I apologise, but I thought Netplay had enough issues to consider it non-playable.

I try to mean that, in my opinion, the game is not useful unless it's in NetPlay, and that NetPlay is supposed to be fixed "soon", so it's the most relevant feature of this gama for a buyer. IMO:

quote:

This game is, as of now, only really usable (for very many of us) as a Netplay game, while we wait for the Ai edition. Solitaire is ok for practice and hotseat means moving to some guy's place and humping in and out of the chair like 300 in an hour (not kidding).

So, the game is for NetPlay now, and although NP is not working now, it is supposed to work somewhen in the future, so it's crucial to determine how to cede the rights in Matrix/slitherin.

That's why it's so crucial to have the right to access Slitherin. Because if not, the games is almost unuseful. IMO again.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 6

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 12:45:28 PM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

Thanks Dabrion, I guessed so, although there is still the possibility to cede the user and password and change the email, if the seller is honest.

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 7

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 1:14:34 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

I was considering this option and the got this reply from the Help Desk:

###############

[ 16 DEC 2013 08:39 by VPaulus ]
Hi Philipp,

I'm afraid that's not possible, as our system doesn't allow to transfer serial numbers from one account to another once the serial number is registered.

Kind Regards,

Paulo Costa
The Slitherine Group

[ 14 DEC 2013 14:30 by Dabrion ]
Hey Pablo!

I would like to have $litherine$ opinion on second hand trade. Can I sell my game to a third party or are there any objections? Would a potential third party be able to change registration details for the serial number, etc.?!

Thanks for your valued help!

Philipp

###############

I purchased the game on the Matrix Games website and it was automatically registered for my account. From this response I took it, that there is more of a technical incompetence than a principle problem.

They have never been able to transfer registration of games from one account to another once registered.

A simple way to do so is to NOT register the game (not be logged in) when buying the game. That way it is not automatically registered to yourself.

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

(in reply to Dabrion)

Post #: 8

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 1:23:29 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I've gifted many Matrix Games over the years.

As recently as last year I gave away Distant Worlds with all expansions and Command Ops and the expansions as well as some other enticing games...I simply did not have the time nor the inclination to play them so passed them on in the hope someone would be able to.

When I had done so, I kept the games and keys for a week to make sure everything was ok, then removed them. The games are actually registered to me in the Members Area, but the new owners are well aware of this.

I'd hate to think peoples suspicions would cast doubt on the integrity of some people in this gaming community before there's any proof to the contrary - so I think it's a bit "early" to suggest it smells of a scam. They could be genuinely fed up with their purchase and want to move on.

You could of course be right - but innocent until proven guilty, eh?

You cannot be so na�ve. Must be joking. Else, I have some jewels at home to sell...

Just joking about the jewels. For me and my friends these guys are totally unknown people. I don't think you'd buy a radio for your car to an unknown person in the street withouth the bill to proof the radio is his... Well, this is much more expensive than a radio.

People need to be considered innocent until proven opposite in trials. No in the rest of life, where everybody can be preventive or naive depending on his own experiences and his own way.

I'm not being naive (love how cars (or mentions thereof) always crop up in comparisons when discussing gaming).

I'm not being naive. I'm an honest bloke - and I take people at "face" value...I don't think the worst of someone or a situation until that becomes clear. Obviously, at times, common sense may need to prevail

But I fully support people's endeavours to either offload a game for cash in order to recoup some loss on a bought product or for free as a gift.

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 9

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 1:27:14 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Oh - and it does seem a bit weird to suggest "...game is, as of now, only really usable (for very many of us) as a Netplay game..." when Netplay isn't working. I thought the game at present was only really playable in solitaire?

If that's wrong, I apologise, but I thought Netplay had enough issues to consider it non-playable.

I try to mean that, in my opinion, the game is not useful unless it's in NetPlay, and that NetPlay is supposed to be fixed "soon", so it's the most relevant feature of this gama for a buyer. IMO:

quote:

This game is, as of now, only really usable (for very many of us) as a Netplay game, while we wait for the Ai edition. Solitaire is ok for practice and hotseat means moving to some guy's place and humping in and out of the chair like 300 in an hour (not kidding).

So, the game is for NetPlay now, and although NP is not working now, it is supposed to work somewhen in the future, so it's crucial to determine how to cede the rights in Matrix/slitherin.

That's why it's so crucial to have the right to access Slitherin. Because if not, the games is almost unuseful. IMO again.

With all due respect to you, Matrix and Steve - it was hoped Netplay (on release) was to be fixed within a week...the exact quote being

quote:

...and we expect to have an update available by the end of next week that resolves most or all of them

I concede it will be the main way to play after solitaire (at least until PBEM is released (if it is)), but it's not there yet.

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 10

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 2:25:56 PM

brian brian

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

hotseat means moving to some guy's place and humping in and out of the chair like 300 in an hour (not kidding).

chairs with wheels�.for US Entry phases�..and big wall-mounted flat screens

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 11

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 3:39:34 PM

Horaf_1

Posts: 8
Joined: 11/13/2003
Status: offline

Actually, I've found a rather elegant solution to this. I had a friend to hot seat MWIF, and hooked up a large monitor to my laptop. During his turns, I'd watch on the laptop's screen, while he played using the large monitor. Eventually, I just hooked in a second mouse, and played my turns on the laptop, across the table form my opponent, both of us in comfortable chairs, and "immobile" for many hours!

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 12

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 3:46:32 PM

AxelNL

Posts: 2386
Joined: 9/24/2011
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Freychris

Actually, I've found a rather elegant solution to this. I had a friend to hot seat MWIF, and hooked up a large monitor to my laptop. During his turns, I'd watch on the laptop's screen, while he played using the large monitor. Eventually, I just hooked in a second mouse, and played my turns on the laptop, across the table form my opponent, both of us in comfortable chairs, and "immobile" for many hours!

smart thinking

(in reply to Horaf_1)

Post #: 13

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 3:57:31 PM

Dabrion

Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Thanks Dabrion, I guessed so, although there is still the possibility to cede the user and password and change the email, if the seller is honest.

You don't really want to be in that position (having to trust someone you do not know). What you could do is:
* involve a trusted third party and place the payment (or goods) on escrow
* do any adjustments necessary to the account and goods
* then if buying and selling party report back to the broker in agreement, have him party release the payment to the seller and
* in other cases return payment and goods to respective owners
* there usually is a fee involved (percentage of buy price)

This conduct would at least eliminate the possibility of scams. My personal issue is that registrations and serials cannot be changed. I don't want to be the guy that sell the game out to piratebay.. And there is no way of making sure that is not going to happen. And guess whose serial will be found there..

_____________________________

�WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.�
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 14

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 4:34:32 PM

jzz001

Posts: 117
Joined: 12/5/2010
Status: offline

you can also try to use remote control function to play hot seat game.

(in reply to AxelNL)

Post #: 15

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/23/2014 5:08:25 PM

AxelNL

Posts: 2386
Joined: 9/24/2011
From: The Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jiangzhouzi

you can also try to use remote control function to play hot seat game.

Yep - and via Dropbox I learned. Albeit that physical company in this case, without having to set up the game on a table, is also quite nice.

What kind of tool for the remote control function do you use?

(in reply to jzz001)

Post #: 16

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/24/2014 5:00:44 AM

juntoalmar

Posts: 601
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
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Assuming he got the game with the books... why would anyone want to sell the game without the books? Hum...

Yeah, if that was the case, you could think that he wants to keep on playing.

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(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

(in reply to AxelNL)

Post #: 17

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/24/2014 6:17:07 AM

JudgeDredd

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Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

3 reasons immediately spring to mind

1. The books are such a work of art (as everyone has pointed out) and a great read that he would like to keep them...perhaps with a view to buying the game when an AI is available
2. One of the reasons (apparently 99% of whiners, carpers and complainers) mentioned was the cost of shipment of said books...so in order to resell the game, he's trying to keep the cost down
3. Perhaps he has the board game (I don't know if they are relevant with regard to the board game...I thought I read on here they were)

There is of course a fourth
4. He could be keeping the books so he can play the game himself when it's working

I'd assume one of the first 3 before I went for 4.

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

(in reply to juntoalmar)

Post #: 18

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/24/2014 6:18:06 AM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

quote:

ORIGINAL: Freychris

Actually, I've found a rather elegant solution to this. I had a friend to hot seat MWIF, and hooked up a large monitor to my laptop. During his turns, I'd watch on the laptop's screen, while he played using the large monitor. Eventually, I just hooked in a second mouse, and played my turns on the laptop, across the table form my opponent, both of us in comfortable chairs, and "immobile" for many hours!

smart thinking

Yeah, As for brian's solution, I have chairs with wheels at my computer table an my wife's, but big wall-mounted flat screens are not in the list by now.

jiangzhouzi and axelnl: Yours are even better! Although I don't know if Matrix will be happy to hear this...

(in reply to AxelNL)

Post #: 19

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/24/2014 6:44:02 AM

juntoalmar

Posts: 601
Joined: 9/29/2013
From: Valencia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

3 reasons immediately spring to mind

1. The books are such a work of art (as everyone has pointed out) and a great read that he would like to keep them...perhaps with a view to buying the game when an AI is available

2. One of the reasons (apparently 99% of whiners, carpers and complainers) mentioned was the cost of shipment of said books...so in order to resell the game, he's trying to keep the cost down
3. Perhaps he has the board game (I don't know if they are relevant with regard to the board game...I thought I read on here they were)

There is of course a fourth
4. He could be keeping the books so he can play the game himself when it's working

I'd assume one of the first 3 before I went for 4.

All my personal opinions, of course:

1. Hard to me to believe. He's selling the game, I don't think that he's planning to buy it later. If he was, it's probably smarter (and cheaper) to just upgrade from current version to newest. Thus, he could carry on playing to it solitary if he wanted until it's available.

2. In that case, I'd give the buyer the option of having or not having the books. He may sell it to someone living in the same city, for example, with no extra delivery costs.

3. If he has the board game, he probably has the original manuals. As some people say, rules are not 100% the same as with MWiF. Still, can be useful.

They all may be possible. I'd say that he may not be interested in playing online, and with solitary is enough for him (and thus keeping the books), and being honest enough not to mess around with the S/N and NetPlay.

Anyway, I want the books, and I want to be sure that no problems in the future with NetPlay. But, if you don't want the printed manuals or play NetPlay... it may be a good opportunity.

_____________________________

(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 20

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/24/2014 6:45:25 AM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

3 reasons immediately spring to mind

1. The books are such a work of art (as everyone has pointed out) and a great read that he would like to keep them...perhaps with a view to buying the game when an AI is available
2. One of the reasons (apparently 99% of whiners, carpers and complainers) mentioned was the cost of shipment of said books...so in order to resell the game, he's trying to keep the cost down
3. Perhaps he has the board game (I don't know if they are relevant with regard to the board game...I thought I read on here they were)

There is of course a fourth
4. He could be keeping the books so he can play the game himself when it's working

I'd assume one of the first 3 before I went for 4.

JudgeDredd:

- As for the "whiners", even though I am a long time WIF player and I agree the books are kind of artistic, the truth is that I would have preferred not to have to buy books, and less artistic books. I buy many games without luxury books and they are ok for me.

I write this because I resent that some people call names to those who complain. specially after paying 80 + taxes, well above the price of a usual computer game, for a game without IA.

- All of this has been debated and we're tired of that, I just bring it here so that people who had a fair complain are not called whiners anymore.

I agree he may want to keep the books because of the art... although I personally wouldn't just because they look good. I don't have any momre walls to decorate and have changed to ebooks even though I keep a certain personal library on the shelves.

- The books can help and be relevant to the players of the board game, for the books explain the rules, and not only this but they also comment them and include the consequences of the errata and clarifications by Harry Rowland.

The only problem is that there is a percentage of changes proper only of the computer game (MWIF) which may differ from WIF and if someone goes totally by the books he will make mistakes at WIF, I believe, I haven't gone through all of the books yet (this is another matter, 3 books of rules this size is a challenge for any player, and although the boardgamers are used to macro rules, in this case it's worse because 95% of what they say we already know, so it's pretty boring).

Another good point is that the books have shown me possibilities that I hadn't think of, in my WIF experience, the comments enrich the experience...

On the other side, the books don't include the latter versions of the ruleset, as intended (cause else the game would still be under development for many months I guess).

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 1/24/2014 8:39:03 AM >

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 21

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/24/2014 6:47:50 AM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

[...]But, if you don't want the printed manuals or play NetPlay... it may be a good opportunity.

To be true, Juntoalmar, NetPlay is the only problem.

From some days ago people can simply download the game without books. It's advertised in this very forum...

(in reply to juntoalmar)

Post #: 22

RE: Reselling the game and the Netplay. A pirates' cave? - 1/24/2014 7:27:51 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
The only problem is that there is a percentage of changes proper only of the computer game (MWIF) which may differ from WIF and if someone goes totally by the books he will make mistakes at WIF, I believe, I haven't gone through all of the books yet (this is another matter, 3 books of rules this size is a challenge for any player, and although the boardgamers are used to macro rules, in this case it's worse because 95% of what they say we already know, so it's pretty boring).

All those changes are italicised and listed as a deviation after the rule in question. Ignore the deviations and you have RAW7 annotated with clarifications, errata and FAQ rulings.

Also - many know 95% of RAC (the thinnest of the three), but the two players manuals are about how to use the game interface and hints and strategies for play. So about 25% known material for a grognard.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/24/2014 8:31:37 PM >

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 23