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scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/22/2014 5:44:11 PM   
Yokes

 

Posts: 298
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Status: offline 		I am willing to bet a good proportion of the audience for this game (simulation seems like a better description) have read the book The War That Never Was by Michael A. Palmer. If you haven't, it's an entertaining read on WWIII set in 1989.

Anyways, I have been working on some scenarios based upon the book. Can I share them? Is the scenario setup copyrighted?

Any lawyers out there?

Thanks!

Yokes
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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/22/2014 7:15:57 PM   
SSN754planker


Posts: 448
Joined: 10/2/2013
Status: offline 		This is an issue that's getting under my skin. I know of at least 1 other thread where people have created (or recreated) a lot of the scenarios from the old Harpoon battlesets. And they are afraid to release them because of fears there may be a copyright issue. One of the gripes i had about this sim when it first launched was that it didn't come with enough Cold War scenarios. I am all for a "redo" of old scenarios a lot of us played the heck out of and loved. For one it would make the game more appealing for people still sitting on the fence on buying the game. Secondly, although some very nice scenarios are out there, the overall count of "released" scenarios is a bit on the slim side. I had a folder of scenarios for various editions of Harpoon that totaled hundreds of scenarios, in every imaginable situation you could think of. I guess i was kind of spoiled by that.

I dont see how copyright issues can be applied to fictional scenarios, on a different game that has many more features than any version of harpoon an old scenario would "come" from. Besides, most of those old scenarios are over a decade old. There is abandon-ware online that's younger than most of these scenarios. If i was an author of a scenario that i created 10 years ago, and saw a reasonable facsimile of it here on CMANO, id be humbled that someone still thought it was good enough to recreate. Even if the new features made it even more realistic than my original.


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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/22/2014 8:18:43 PM   
Russian Heel


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From: Metro Station Vasileostrovskaya
Status: offline 		Well for one thing, its not like you are selling the scenario. It's not like you are making a stand alone game called "The War That Never Was" with the exact same scenario and cover and profiting on it. Its a shared scenario inspired by a book, if anything the rights holder should be happy - free exposure of a niche product to the very audience the product targets.

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/22/2014 8:56:27 PM   
mikeCK

 

Posts: 565
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Status: offline 		Yes you can share them. the only time you're violating copyright laws is if you use those ideas or that product for your own personal benefit ....to make money or to promote yourself. simply creating a game mod based iBooks scenario is not illegal you're fine post away

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/22/2014 8:57:31 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Status: offline 		Well the benefit of doing so is you'll probably sell more books for the author

In terms of Command we don't care what you do with the community set. We only take care of what ships with the game.

I would like to see some original stuff though as we worked hard on features Harpoon never had and it is cool to see somebody really show what they can do. That me though.

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/22/2014 9:58:08 PM >

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/22/2014 9:14:09 PM   
Anathema


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From: Australia
Status: offline 		Actually it doesn't neccasarily matter if you are making money out of it, for example it still isn't legal for me to copy software and give it away for free to people, simply because I am not making money out of it. That is a common misconception about copyright and instead you have to pass a 'fair use' test (or come up with some other defence), where usually the more important question is if the rights holder is losing money or somehow suffering because of you?

Also not all right holders are that happy for others to use their work or cooperate, for example some companies have asked for their products/intellectual property be removed from games or even mods, despite the fact that it does no harm and actually promotes their product.

Having said that I wouldn't copy and paste the contents of a say a novel into the briefing or orders, but recreating a scenario in Command that is based on a novel is almost certainly fine because you are not actually reproducing the contents of the book. In that case it is rather like using book or movie as a reference, source or inspiration to create a new original work of your own, but you should probably say where you got the idea from just to be fair.

Copying another scenario however probably is less clear cut, especially if they were produced for profit and sold as part of another game, because businesses are always far more protective of their rights and intellectual property.

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/22/2014 9:17:25 PM   
Mad Russian


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Status: offline 		The issue is called Intellectual Property(IP). When someone creates something; writes a book, creates a song, makes a wargame scenario. They did it with their own intellect. That's their property. Whether it's on the internet as a free give away or not.

If you take what someone else created and use it for your own purpose you impose on their IP.

"MOST" wargame scenario designers don't mind being copied, IF they get credited with the original AND if you don't re-release it under their name. It would be best to ask first.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/22/2014 10:21:09 PM >

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/22/2014 9:30:55 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Status: offline 		I do think people should do the right thing and credit the previous author. Law or not. Need to keep the community stuff positive.



< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/22/2014 10:31:36 PM >

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/22/2014 11:20:57 PM   
Primarchx


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Status: offline 		I agree with Mad Russian and Mike.

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/23/2014 12:56:55 AM   
SSN754planker


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Status: offline 		I agree in giving the original author kudos, no issue there.

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/23/2014 3:55:34 PM   
Yokes

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 3/14/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks everyone for your responses. I was leaning towards seeking permission first, and the comments by Anathema and Mad Russian helped convince me.

So I did some googling and found an email address for the author, and he responded with a "yes" about 15 minutes after I emailed him. Yay!

I'll post the first scenario in the scenario forum once I finish my first playthrough.

Thanks everyone!

Yokes

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/23/2014 6:57:01 PM   
Ginetto

 

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Status: offline 		I agree. Microsoft, for example, released, and is still releasing, a lot of XBox games based on books, Harry Potter comes to mind (I bought it for my son for Christmas). I'm certain that in releasing the game they recognized in one way or another Harry Potter's author's intellectual property. A scenario is not a whole game, but the principle is the same. You create something (game, scenario, etc.) based on the result of the intellectual efforts of someone else. I would look into The Operational Art of War's scenarios. I seem to remember that some of them are derived from books. If that's the case (IF), they may be a useful precedent.

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/23/2014 8:43:27 PM   
bgeery

 

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Status: offline 		Copyright only protects the expression of the idea. Unless to are copying text from a book verbatim in your scenario descriptions, there is no copyright protection on ideas. That would be the realm of patents. Also, titles and characters are not copyrightable. That would be covered by trademarks, if anything.

Feel free to make a scenario about anything you like. Mention that it's inspired by another scenario or a book if it makes you feel better. Stay away from trademarks, and you will be OK.

< Message edited by bgeery -- 1/23/2014 9:46:23 PM >

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/23/2014 9:09:18 PM   
tommo8993

 

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Status: offline 		Assumeing you say its based on the book and name the author i dont see why they would have an issue, its free publicity

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/24/2014 8:32:36 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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quote:

I'm certain that in releasing the game they recognized in one way or another Harry Potter's author's intellectual property.


You bet. I can only imagine how much they paid. Big brands - like Potter, or the Lord of the Rings, are very active to protect their IP rights, in court.

Some people design things to live, not for fun (or only fun) so I'm all for IP, without which less cool things would get designed, eventually. You have to reward the people who have the ideas. Just like we had to buy this game and not simply share it amongst ourselves.

I think it's great you considered the IP issues, Yokes, and spot on to write to the author, and cool he was happy about it.


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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/24/2014 5:04:16 PM   
Werewolf13

 

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quote:

...I would like to see some original stuff though as we worked hard on features Harpoon never had and it is cool to see somebody really show what they can do. That me though.


I am one of those still on the fence and have yet to purchase. Why? Because so far Command looks (emphasis on looks which doesn't mean is just looks) a whole lot like Harpoon (which I liked and played since the old Harpoon Classic original came out).

I've read the reviews and payed particular attention to the Matrix Product page and so far don't see anything in Command that I recognize as not having also been in Harpoon.

Which is why I take particular notice of mikmyk's statement re:features Harpoon never had. This one would truly be interested in knowing what's in Command that wasn't in Harpoon. I really want to fall off the fence on this one. Someone give me a push.

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/24/2014 5:16:47 PM   
RoryAndersonCDT

 

Posts: 1830
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Status: offline 		- Command allows custom overlays
- Command comes with a database of 'pre-built' airbases, sam sites, electronic warfare sites, naval bases. Players are submitting prebuilt carrier strike groups and additional sites. There is a tool for importing placemarks from Google Earth to Command.
- Command now has a mod that reads out the game's log to you with configurable sound effects.
- Harpoon doesn't have MIRVs. Command does. ... I like MIRVs :)


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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 3:07:22 AM   
Stevechase

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

I do think people should do the right thing and credit the previous author. Law or not. Need to keep the community stuff positive.



With all due respect this is not true. You can google copyright laws if you like. From another post:

Scenarios are not private or intellectual property, they are simply plausible or for that matter implausible situations. No one can own that. I think you are confusing plagiarism in this case. Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.
If you follow that logic then you can not make scenarios based on "Red Storm Rising" (or any other known authored story/scenario)as many have requested. Again history or the idea of alternate history is not intellectual property.
It is very much like parody films today done without copyright infringement of film being parodied (is parodied a word?). It is called the "fair use clause".
Anyway if nothing else it has got me learning to design scenarios so that I can make some of these classic Harpoon and alternate history type scenarios, though we would all be much better served if some of our great community designers would use their talents in this area.

Though I totally agree that you should give credit to any source used even if it is not against the law.

< Message edited by Stevechase -- 1/25/2014 4:50:00 AM >

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 3:20:18 AM   
Stevechase

 

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< Message edited by Stevechase -- 1/25/2014 4:29:08 AM >

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 3:23:47 AM   
mrfeizhu


Posts: 131
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline 		When you get a letter from a real lawyer to take it down that's when to think about it, it costs money to hire a lawyer, i don't think any one would care enough to do that. If they do than remove the scenario or wait until you get a court order to do that. You should cite the author of the scenario as you would cite other works in a paper. I think if you want to create a scenario you can do better on your own by studying other sources than to copy one from harpoon. I use to liked to play tactical engagements with harpoon, but that may have had some thing to do with the maps or the lack of good ones or the clunky interface. Now Command is a different story all together, nice maps, nice interface.....

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 3:36:17 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
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Status: offline 		Ok. I'm wrong. Can this string now please end.

Thanks

Mike




< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/25/2014 4:37:33 AM >

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 3:42:52 AM   
Stevechase

 

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Status: offline 		Sorry Mike. Didn't mean to quote your post. Meant to quote Mad Russian. So now you are wrong about being wrong. I have a habit of hitting the quote button of the next post instead of the intended.

< Message edited by Stevechase -- 1/25/2014 4:45:12 AM >

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 3:43:31 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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Status: offline 		I've been wrong about being wrong before

Guys just a heads up. Nobody really cares about this stuff but one PITA just uses it to needle people. It has nothing to do with furthering anything but old stupid stuff. This is why we get annoyed.We're trying to figure out ways to keep things positive and people focused on building stuff. We have a good opportunity here.

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/25/2014 4:47:01 AM >

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 3:52:34 AM   
Stevechase

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

I've been wrong about being wrong before

Guys just a heads up. Nobody really cares about this stuff but one PITA just uses it to needle people. It has nothing to do with furthering anything but old stupid stuff. This is why we get annoyed.We're trying to figure out ways to keep things positive and people focused on building stuff. We have a good opportunity here.

quote:

PITA

Understood. Was wondering why there seemed to be reluctance. I'm through with this thread.

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 9:45:41 PM   
smudge56

 

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Status: offline 		I'm looking at trying to recreate some scenarios from the table top board game 5th fleet. How do i stand with recreating these scenarios ?

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 11:03:11 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/25/2014 11:16:27 PM   
djoos5


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Status: offline 		Fifth Fleet rocks!

You ever hook up with people to play on Vassal?

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/26/2014 8:17:06 PM   
smudge56

 

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Status: offline 		I dont know what that is.

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/26/2014 8:28:11 PM   
djoos5


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Status: offline 		http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Category:Modules

VASSAL is an online game table that allows you to play games like Fifth Fleet. I believe you can play in both real-time or on a turn by turn basis over email. Check it out. They have an awesome catalog of games. If you ever want to play some fleet, let me know.

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RE: scenario based on a book: copyright issue? - 1/26/2014 8:33:29 PM   
smudge56

 

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Status: offline 		Shame it doesn't have my favourite 2 games European Theatre of Operations and Pacific Theatre of Operations.

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