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Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 2:47:25 PM

Callistrid

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There are any news from the new patch?

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 6:38:15 PM

morvael

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No news, unfortunately. The patch is 80% ready, but for now I have no time to finish it. I started a new job, but I'm still under obligations to do some things (mostly on weekends) in the old. It may be hard to find any time until second half of February. Even then, I will have less time to work on the code than I had in 2013, so it will be slow going. I intend to finish the patch, but can't promise any dates at this time.

So far I have new production, replacement and upgrades done, enchanced editor to program attributes helping with new production/replacement system done, but I don't have swaps and the whole things is untested in the long run. Plus dozen of other fixes, as usual.

(in reply to Callistrid)

Post #: 2

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 7:46:00 PM

Peltonx

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That stinks because game really sucks right now.

Russia is so over powered its stupid.

The nerfs to logistics( do noting to SHC of course) make it more then easy to rail out everything and retreat for 7 turns-then counter attacking exploiting 1v1=2v1 15 to 20 times per turn with a win ratio of 98%+. This means that lines become static by July 1941.

The mild winter is then not mild.

I would and am telling people not to waste there time playing.

Game is complete joke really in it current state.

Worse then it has ever been = disaster.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/23/2014 8:47:20 PM >

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 8:08:17 PM

Michael T

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From: Queensland, Australia.
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Yep, were in a bad place right now.

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 8:10:07 PM

rmonical

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Reduce Soviet morale to .95.

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 5

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 8:12:40 PM

Callistrid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Reduce Soviet morale to .95.

or lower.

But that will not resolve anything.

< Message edited by Callistrid -- 1/23/2014 9:13:01 PM >

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Post #: 6

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 8:24:58 PM

Tarhunnas

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You never were one for half measures Pelton!

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Post #: 7

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 8:25:38 PM

Tarhunnas

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A VP system that discourages Soviet runaways!

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 8

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 8:29:35 PM

Callistrid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

A VP system that discourages Soviet runaways!

On the first 7 turn the soviet can't loose enough VP. A good soviet player could held Leningrad, Moscow, and Rostov. And even if he loose one of those object cities, the game is not lost.

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Post #: 9

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 8:40:34 PM

Michael T

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Well the Soviet Fanboy's should be happy at least. Only problem they face now is finding a willing whipping boy....

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Post #: 10

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 9:02:00 PM

morvael

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What if I told you that despite rules as printed German national morale is never lower than 70? I feel compelled to fix it according to the rules, but it will cause German army to collapse even faster. It seems a lot of Axis performance was due to bugs. I would happily fix some bugs nerfing Soviet side, but there are less of them... Thus mild winter and (I hope) ability to turn off 1->2 rule as changes helping to balance those fixes, optionally.

< Message edited by morvael -- 1/23/2014 10:02:38 PM >

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 11

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 9:21:26 PM

Callistrid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

What if I told you that despite rules as printed German national morale is never lower than 70? I feel compelled to fix it according to the rules, but it will cause German army to collapse even faster. It seems a lot of Axis performance was due to bugs. I would happily fix some bugs nerfing Soviet side, but there are less of them... Thus mild winter and (I hope) ability to turn off 1->2 rule as changes helping to balance those fixes, optionally.

The german collapse depends on the soviet player. If he's enough strong, the best german players can't do anything to stop them. In 41 we can see who won.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 12

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 10:05:46 PM

Michael T

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quote:

It seems a lot of Axis performance was due to bugs

This is the great problem. WITE was tweaked to a balanced position with all those bugs. Now you have/are removing those bugs and the balance is totally screwed. Ofcourse the bugs should be removed. Even national morale bug. BUT something must be done to redress the balance. Otherwise this game is dead.

IIRC the original Soviet morale was 40, maybe it should go back there. Maybe a lot of the original tweaks need to be wound back.

Basically the entire balancing process needs to start again. Who has the energy and time to do that?

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 10:19:11 PM

hfarrish

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

It seems a lot of Axis performance was due to bugs

This is the great problem. WITE was tweaked to a balanced position with all those bugs. Now you have/are removing those bugs and the balance is totally screwed. Ofcourse the bugs should be removed. Even national morale bug. BUT something must be done to redress the balance. Otherwise this game is dead.

IIRC the original Soviet morale was 40, maybe it should go back there. Maybe a lot of the original tweaks need to be wound back.

Basically the entire balancing process needs to start again. Who has the energy and time to do that?

Is there any reason we can't have a harsher SD rule set as an option? I have been purposefully playing a fight forward approach (i.e. not retreating except in the face of obvious encirclements) and it does lead to a better game. I'm not the world's greatest Soviet player but forcing the Red to take losses when they are weak and the Germans are strong could improve a lot of these outcomes...and its not a change that would require wholesale revamps to the game that won't happen.

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/23/2014 11:52:45 PM

Toidi

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Well, my opinion is that this game should get abandoned soon and an upgrade to WitE 2.0 or War in Europe offered. Just a little cheaper for the current WitE owners. In my view current WitE is not possible to fix without putting huge amount of time & effort.

The problems are:

1. Combat engine
2. Leadership effects
3 Logistics
4 Not allowing Germans to produce things as they like

1-3 leads to very tough (almost impossible) balancing and plenty of snow-balling effects in the game. Issues no 4 leads to the game which is very rigid for Axis, as Soviet can build forces which counters the prescribed Axis forces, whereas Axis cannot do anything at all about that.

Ad.1 Combat engine needs a full change. In the interests of balancing, I would suggest using something much simpler. If not, the modelling of combat must be made in a much more realistic way. Current mix of simplicity in fighting simulation, simplicity in tactics and simple morale mechanics, combined with high complexity in equipment simulation is not working.
Ad.2 Effects of leadership should be changed - the mechanics may stay the same only if the combat engine is drastically simplified. Otherwise, they need to affect how the fighting itself goes (tactics), casualties etc. That is tough to balance, so I suggest simplifications in the combat engine instead.
Ad.3 Improving logistics is probably easier and that will be likely fixed in WitE 2. I have seen some very good developments in that area, not perfect, but good improvement.
Ad.4 Getting production right is another problem - but I think that this step must be done. Also, the time of TOE changes should be up to the player (one should not be able to adopt '44 TOE in '42, but one should be able to stick with '42 TOE in '44 if one wants).

(in reply to hfarrish)

Post #: 15

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 4:35:00 AM

stardark

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Just a quick clarification question: do these problems apply to only Human vs. Human games, or generally to Human vs. Human AND Human vs. AI? I bought this game in December, and I want to buy the two expansions soon. However, I did not have much time to play, and the problems mentioned in this forum constantly keep me from playing.

(in reply to Toidi)

Post #: 16

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 5:26:03 AM

Tarhunnas

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Stardark, do not take everything at complete face value. While there is probably some truth to the above, there is a substantial tendency to overstatements and general doomsaying among some member of this forum.

This is a great game, and in human vs AI the balance issue is (as in any game) that a human player that has gotten the ropes of the game will comfortably beat the AI.

(in reply to stardark)

Post #: 17

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 5:27:32 AM

Tarhunnas

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A partial solution, if indeed the Soviets are now too strong, might be to introduce a "mild mud" option. The mud rules always felt a bit overdone IMHO, another fudge rule to make things come out as they should.

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Post #: 18

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 7:04:18 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

It seems a lot of Axis performance was due to bugs

....

Basically the entire balancing process needs to start again. Who has the energy and time to do that?

I realise its great fun to cry 'we're all doomed' and so on, but there are solutions and ways to get back to balance - which I suspect we all want (except of course one person's balanced game is anothers complete fantasy).

Equally I realise in the context of PBEM that if you change settings and it doesn't work you are stuck, but its a case of being pragmatic. The next patch will probably be it, and will at least have removed a lot of bugs and routines that cause problems (mid/late game production routines etc).

We can all write erudite essays on how the combat/logistic/whatever system needs to be changed and it ain't gonna make any difference. WiTE2 is some distance off (& I guess depends on the funds raised by WiTW).

But, you can shift the settings, if you feel that 100%-100% is wrong, experiment. Set differential transport levels, that will go a long way to making factory evac more of a burden on the Soviet side and stop easy shifting of entire fronts from late 1941 onwards. That sounds like one simple balance - you have to fight forward and you lose a lot of strategic flexibility.

Use differential morale, if the game has indeed been balanced around an overestimate of German capacity, then set most Soviet values at 95%.

I'm sure that over time, some idea of a reasonable set of adjustments that give a good competitive game will emerge.

Equally play with people who aren't into win at all costs. No-one forced me to an active defense in my current game but its something I wanted to try in the light of the sort of alterations above. It may fail, but in terms of numbers it is looking like the (mild) blizzard will be between 2 armies of roughly equal size (ie the historical position).

So, either use the balancing tools in the game (and accept this will produce a few spectacular disasters), give up till WiTE2 or carry on whinging? I'm pretty sure I know where my preferences lie.

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 7:47:50 AM

RedLancer

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I don't think that anyone is content with where things stand right now.

However (and noting that I am being deliberately contraversial) much of this situation can be attributed to the approach from some Players to flaws in the game. There have been times when WitE has been balanced but some people have chosen to seek every exploit in a desire to win. In a game of this complexity it is almost impossible to find every loophole. The response to this behaviour has seldom been to ostracise those individuals. Instead the forum demagogues have lobbied hard for yet another change from 'the Devs' which just starts the cycle once again. So whilst I am unhappy with the current position we all have a responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in as we are in a bed of our own making.

My final observation is that I am still convinced that a number of issues could have been easily addressed had the forum been more 'mod' friendly: a scenario starting on T2 and therefore circumventing the T1 rules and the Lvov Pocket being a good example.

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Post #: 20

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 8:27:19 AM

Michael T

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With the utmost respect John. I think you are missing a very important point. The game was reasonably balanced a few iterations back. Due to lobbying by players mostly. The game was approaching a good place. No one knew that all this balancing was going to be thrown out because of unknown bugs getting squashed. That is the key point. And should not be glossed over.

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 9:22:47 AM

RedLancer

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I agree and no gloss intended. Hindsight is wonderful thing but there has always been a continual clamour for change. Exactly how far back one considers things balanced is a point of discussion in itself. It could be argued that v11 with the new blizzard rules is where this latest Pandora's Box was opened. Unfortunately all too often the debate descends into issues of Soviet or Axis bias and the blizzard has always been a central pillar in many people's arguments about what balance really means.

I simply sought to air the view that a catalyst of current situation are those who seek the next best thing. Do we really think that more optional rules will solve the problem? We need to be patient and let morvael complete the next patch.

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Post #: 22

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 11:09:37 AM

Tarhunnas

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It is still a very enjoyable game. I Think the reason people are sometimes somewhat agitated and frustrated in the forum is eaxctly because the game is soo good and so enjoyable, and then the fact that it is not perfect is all the more frustrating.

(in reply to RedLancer)

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 2:15:41 PM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
I Think the reason people are sometimes somewhat agitated and frustrated in the forum is eaxctly because the game is soo good and so enjoyable, and then the fact that it is not perfect is all the more frustrating.

This is a very good point. The reason I snipe at the game sometimes is because I love it and want it to be even better.
It's the same with women. All the while they're moaning at you, you can be sure they still love you.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 24

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 3:36:44 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
I Think the reason people are sometimes somewhat agitated and frustrated in the forum is eaxctly because the game is soo good and so enjoyable, and then the fact that it is not perfect is all the more frustrating.

This is a very good point. The reason I snipe at the game sometimes is because I love it and want it to be even better.
It's the same with women. All the while they're moaning at you, you can be sure they still love you.

I do hope you are married and your wife can read :)

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 3:47:34 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

It is still a very enjoyable game. I Think the reason people are sometimes somewhat agitated and frustrated in the forum is eaxctly because the game is soo good and so enjoyable, and then the fact that it is not perfect is all the more frustrating.

There simply is no agitation to be honest Tarhunnas the game is simply crap right now.

When one side can win 100% of the time, that is simply screwed up.

There is no more guess work.

I have the data posted in a thread.

It is what it is.

If the Russian player can read, he should be able to easly retreat for 7ish turns then begin attacking 5-15 times per turn and by the end of summer 15-20 per turn winning almost 100% of the time.

I am guessing most of the people that play the game can read, it is not a big secret any more.

The mild blizzard is therefor never mild.

As MT has stated the game after .14 will be finally fixed, BUT we will have to start the long process of balancing the game again.

This is simply the fact of the matter an no name calling or tring to ignore the facts will change the truth.

I am guessing but I do not think 2by3 has the time or resources to put into this game in its current unbalanced state.

Sure WitE is "fixable", but who really wants to waste there time when we all know WitE 2.0 will be out in the future?

Speak about the data and not your personal feelings about people, its much more helpful and blows less smoke up peoples ******* .

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Post #: 26

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 4:00:48 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

It is still a very enjoyable game. I Think the reason people are sometimes somewhat agitated and frustrated in the forum is eaxctly because the game is soo good and so enjoyable, and then the fact that it is not perfect is all the more frustrating.

quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

I notified Callistrid that I am going to resign from our game. This is the third game in a row (Sapper, M60, Callistrid) where I have been handled decisively in '41 by solid Soviet opponents and I see no reason to go forward. I decided to stand and fight and have 7 divisions surrounded two turns into the blizzard. I used to be able to handle the axis well enough to produce a competitive game even against very good players (The Pro's) but no longer. This game is extremely challenging to play as axis right now against solid opponents (as other axis players better than I have noted) and I no longer seem to be able to make it into '43 with any real chance of standing up to the Soviets. Excellent game by you Callistrid - sorry to end it on you so quickly! I'll have to hang up my Field Marshall's baton for a while.....

This is the problem and BOTH sides see it not just one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

This game is over, and Dave was a very good opponent. Fighting on the Germans side is tough. It's enough to make a little mistake, and the war is lost. Let's see what I learn with the Soviet

1. Playing with the Soviet is easy. The sapper an construction brigades build fortification easily, and if you retreat on the first six turns, the saved troops with the reinforcements can hardly hit the advancing German troops. With the new rule the German can't pocket troops, because the encirclement can be broke easily.

2. Mild winter. Strong Soviet defeat the German, weak not. So the successful winter operation depend on how powerful is the Soviet army, not what my opponent did. On my game against Dave there infantry stack in level 2 fortification was easy to beat.

3. Paratroops. I never drop them, but using them could DE devastating. Easy method to break the supply line, or to isolate troops.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

4. The Soviet have more rail yard then it should to have. With 100k+ it's easy to transport full fronts to threatened sectors. Using your short transport lines, the German will always face with strong troops in the critical sectors. And the factory evacuation is too fast. In the first seven turn, all what is unorganised sent to the urals.

5. Retreat, retreat, retreat. There is no reason to stand and fight on the first seven turn. Only around Leningrad, but that could be managed. The German could move close to Moscow, but never capture.

6. nonrandom weather. The nonrandom weather is not just a German favors. Because always the Soviet moves second, it's easy to be brave without consequences. You know when will be mud, and when could rest the troops, move forward to refit, or launch attack, when normally never do, because you don't know what will be the next weather.

And the most important. The 2/1 rule. It wag ugly when I start beating the German army around turn 14. The clear terrain gains no bonus defenses, and 6~9 cv into can be hit, without fear. And what is real worse, when you start attacking the front, launch 10+ successful attack.

The player base sees it-everyone.

I generally bring sht up months before everyone else see it and you can bwhine about me all you want, but the player base see the problem now

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/24/2014 5:02:33 PM >

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RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 5:25:33 PM

Ketza

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To me the game was a fun ride up until recently. Pelton is right the Soviets hold all the cards at this point unless you want to just play a simulation with no concern over winning as the Axis there is no point to playing.

My favorite game of WITE was my first AAR against 76mm back before everyone figured out how to game the game.

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 28

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 5:58:00 PM

morvael

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The new replacement system will help the side that has lacks of some resource (men, arms) more and this means it will mostly help Axis. Soviet side usually has abundance of everything (and simple upgrade paths) and for them the current one is mostly working. The new system will also prevent arms shortages during rifle/cav/mech squad upgrades. It will also allow to direct scarce resources better (due to separation of refit phase into two subphases, with first dedicated to on-map units on refit and the second to units on auto-refit over which player has no control, like HQs and support units). There will also be an option to turn 1:1->2:1 off. If at this point the Soviets will be still too strong in 1941 it will be a simple matter of reducing their national morale and tweaking retreat results. I think the game still has future, unfortunately it all depends on my free time availability. Provide me with $1M so I could resign from my day job, and you will have WitE 2.0 and 3.0 before summer :)

(in reply to Ketza)

Post #: 29

RE: Any news from 1.07.14.? - 1/24/2014 9:10:57 PM

Schmart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza
My favorite game of WITE was my first AAR against 76mm back before everyone figured out how to game the game.

This is a very important comment, IMHO. There are some players who are out simply to 'game the game'. The more complex the game, the more opportunities to game the game and exploit loopholes, whether they are bugs or simply gaps in the system. The early games in complex systems like that are usually better because people haven't found all the loopholes yet, and there's still a mystery about it all. Kind of like in real life where things are unpredictable (Why people play with non-random/predictable weather settings is beyond me...I don't know any war in which the weather was predictable...). Once you've played dozens of games or practiced your opening moves a hundred times, there's far less fun involved. It's essentially now become a heartless, fine-tuned business and less of a fun game with a buddy over a couple beers.

Every war in history is essentially like playing WITE for the first time, because no one every really knows exactly what's going on! That's part of the problem with turning history into a game: you can learn, repeat, practice, stream-line, have hindsight, etc. von Manstein or Zhukov never had the same ability to practice their opening moves a hundred times to get it just right because in real life there's just too much uncertainty and too many variables. That is an inherent flaw in every wargame.

The simpler the game (more 'Arcade-ish', if you like), the harder it is to game the system. This is the problem with every wargame. Games like Axis and Allies, and Avalon Hill's Russian Campaign are pretty hard to game the system, because they're so simple and basic.

A game like WITE has so many layers of complexity and in some ways that is it's weakness. It will continue to take a great deal of time and effort to make such a game exploit-proof. Further, finding an opponent that plays the same way you do and has a similar fun vs gaming philosophy has always been very difficult. To build a game that will take into account every possible human vs human scenario, is impossible. IMO, it's largely up to players to find the right opponents for them to have an enjoyable or equal game. Which is why I much prefer playing these complex games (TOAW, WITE, etc) vs AI because I can play more historical strategies, tweak settings for my skill or desire, etc.

The game being horrendously broken is one opinion. For what I play and use the game for, it works for me, or I make it work for me. I quite enjoy the game actually, but the way I play and approach these wargames might be different than some.

(in reply to Ketza)

Post #: 30