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RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/25/2014 5:49:03 PM

shaddock

Posts: 192
Joined: 9/18/2013
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Allow me to be the first:

We don't want to see your but under tech support lol :)

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Post #: 31

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/25/2014 6:04:46 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

� Fixed a problem with Port Attacks where using surprise points to avoid the port attack during the air-to-air combat subphase caused a fatal error.

So this was the only port attack issue fixed? What about the game locking up when a second ship is selected for damage by the defender? That was reported on a couple weeks ago and pretty much prevents surprise port attacks from happening when ships are damaged. Without the ability to do surprise port attacks, it's pointless to try a game involving ships.

For your information, I went through a port attack two days ago while testing, and I didn't come across this problem at all. I was able to destroy, damage and abort ships by both the attacker and the defender in the right way, including the spending of surprise points if the attackers wants to choose the target...

looks like it is still broke using 1.1.1..see my but under tech support

warspite1

"Nice but!"

"Yeah, he must work out"....

P.S Name that film?

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 32

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/25/2014 6:59:04 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

� Fixed a problem with Port Attacks where using surprise points to avoid the port attack during the air-to-air combat subphase caused a fatal error.

So this was the only port attack issue fixed? What about the game locking up when a second ship is selected for damage by the defender? That was reported on a couple weeks ago and pretty much prevents surprise port attacks from happening when ships are damaged. Without the ability to do surprise port attacks, it's pointless to try a game involving ships.

For your information, I went through a port attack two days ago while testing, and I didn't come across this problem at all. I was able to destroy, damage and abort ships by both the attacker and the defender in the right way, including the spending of surprise points if the attackers wants to choose the target...

looks like it is still broke using 1.1.1..see my post under tech support

Centuur probably had it work in solitaire whereas yours is NetPlay. The problem is logged against NetPlay.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/25/2014 8:00:07 PM >

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Paul

(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 33

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/25/2014 7:14:41 PM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

� Fixed a problem with Port Attacks where using surprise points to avoid the port attack during the air-to-air combat subphase caused a fatal error.

So this was the only port attack issue fixed? What about the game locking up when a second ship is selected for damage by the defender? That was reported on a couple weeks ago and pretty much prevents surprise port attacks from happening when ships are damaged. Without the ability to do surprise port attacks, it's pointless to try a game involving ships.

For your information, I went through a port attack two days ago while testing, and I didn't come across this problem at all. I was able to destroy, damage and abort ships by both the attacker and the defender in the right way, including the spending of surprise points if the attackers wants to choose the target...

looks like it is still broke using 1.1.1..see my post under tech support

Centuur probably had it work in solitaire whereas yours is NetPlay. The problem is logged against NetPlay.

I haven't had an issue in solitaire with many of these problems, just Netplay.

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Post #: 34

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/25/2014 7:16:10 PM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline

By the way..I fixed that "but"...lol.

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Post #: 35

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 6:28:13 AM

Magpius

Posts: 1632
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

@warspite
Dumb & Dumber?
And I hope I'm wrong!

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Post #: 36

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 6:30:20 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Agent S

@warspite
Dumb & Dumber?
And I hope I'm wrong!

warspite1

Dumb and Dumber is the correct answer!

Why did you hope you were wrong?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Magpius)

Post #: 37

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 8:32:06 AM

Magpius

Posts: 1632
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

The film is so bad that knowing the quote and posting the answer diminishes us both!

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Post #: 38

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 8:35:06 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Agent S

The film is so bad that knowing the quote and posting the answer diminishes us both!

warspite1

Really!! I think that is a brilliant film! Love the snowball fight.

Anyway congratulations on receiving 25 points for a correct answer

.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to Magpius)

Post #: 39

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 10:40:42 AM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

� Fixed a problem with Port Attacks where using surprise points to avoid the port attack during the air-to-air combat subphase caused a fatal error.

So this was the only port attack issue fixed? What about the game locking up when a second ship is selected for damage by the defender? That was reported on a couple weeks ago and pretty much prevents surprise port attacks from happening when ships are damaged. Without the ability to do surprise port attacks, it's pointless to try a game involving ships.

For your information, I went through a port attack two days ago while testing, and I didn't come across this problem at all. I was able to destroy, damage and abort ships by both the attacker and the defender in the right way, including the spending of surprise points if the attackers wants to choose the target...

looks like it is still broke using 1.1.1..see my post under tech support

Centuur probably had it work in solitaire whereas yours is NetPlay. The problem is logged against NetPlay.

I haven't had an issue in solitaire with many of these problems, just Netplay.

If you did state that, I wouldn't have said anything about this issue.

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Peter

(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 40

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 5:23:28 PM

Zorachus99

Posts: 1066
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline

Does anyone test the patches before they are released? Is that Steve's job as well?

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Post #: 41

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 5:51:55 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Does anyone test the patches before they are released? Is that Steve's job as well?

We don't use the updater to get the patches, so we can't test that.
For the patches themselves, I usually try to test it through a whole turn. Problem however is, that MWIF has so many probable outcomes (especially in naval combat) that it is impossible to test everything, so we try to test those things Steve has fixed.

Unfortunately, there is always the possibility that fixing one thing might cause another thing to go wrong if a certains situation occurs. Not knowing what and when is the major problem here...

But slowly things are going to get better and better. There is real progress measurable, especially in solitair. But I agree that it is slow, very slow...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/26/2014 6:56:45 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 6:18:42 PM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Does anyone test the patches before they are released? Is that Steve's job as well?

We don't use the updater to get the patches, so we can't test that.
For the patches themselves, I usually try to test it through a whole turn. Problem however is, that MWIF has so many probable outcomes (especially in naval combat) that it is impossible to test everything, so we try to test those things Steve has fixed.

Unfortunately, there is always the possibility that fixing one thing might cause another thing to go wrong if a certains situation occurs. Not knowing what and when is the major problem here...

But slowly things are going to get better and better. There is real progress measurable, especially in solitair. But I agree that it is slow, very slow...

I don't envy you guys considering the complexity of the game and all the options involved. In the final months leading up to the release of WitE I was spending 12 to 14 hour days testing, testing, and more testing. This game is probably 10 times more complex than WitE so having a well developed test plan is pretty key.

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Post #: 43

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 6:21:34 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Does anyone test the patches before they are released? Is that Steve's job as well?

We don't use the updater to get the patches, so we can't test that.
For the patches themselves, I usually try to test it through a whole turn. Problem however is, that MWIF has so many probable outcomes (especially in naval combat) that it is impossible to test everything, so we try to test those things Steve has fixed.

Unfortunately, there is always the possibility that fixing one thing might cause another thing to go wrong if a certains situation occurs. Not knowing what and when is the major problem here...

But slowly things are going to get better and better. There is real progress measurable, especially in solitair. But I agree that it is slow, very slow...

I don't envy you guys considering the complexity of the game and all the options involved. In the final months leading up to the release of WitE I was spending 12 to 14 hour days testing, testing, and more testing. This game is probably 10 times more complex than WitE so having a well developed test plan is pretty key.

warspite1

Thing is, a complex or long game can never be 100% (or even close) to being tested. E.g. how many times did a beta tester play a whole game of WITE in beta phase? I would be surprised if ever. Problem with MWIF you have the game length AND the not-made-for-computer game complexity too. The testers will only ever be able to do so much I'm afraid...

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 44

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 7:08:00 PM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Does anyone test the patches before they are released? Is that Steve's job as well?

We don't use the updater to get the patches, so we can't test that.
For the patches themselves, I usually try to test it through a whole turn. Problem however is, that MWIF has so many probable outcomes (especially in naval combat) that it is impossible to test everything, so we try to test those things Steve has fixed.

Unfortunately, there is always the possibility that fixing one thing might cause another thing to go wrong if a certains situation occurs. Not knowing what and when is the major problem here...

But slowly things are going to get better and better. There is real progress measurable, especially in solitair. But I agree that it is slow, very slow...

I don't envy you guys considering the complexity of the game and all the options involved. In the final months leading up to the release of WitE I was spending 12 to 14 hour days testing, testing, and more testing. This game is probably 10 times more complex than WitE so having a well developed test plan is pretty key.

warspite1

Thing is, a complex or long game can never be 100% (or even close) to being tested. E.g. how many times did a beta tester play a whole game of WITE in beta phase? I would be surprised if ever. Problem with MWIF you have the game length AND the not-made-for-computer game complexity too. The testers will only ever be able to do so much I'm afraid...

I agree beta testers can only do so much, we went thru quite a few in the few years I was on that program, only a handful stuck it out from beginning to end. Burnout was pretty high.

We had different testers test different things. Leo did a lot of the long term game play by going auto with the AI and running the game thru completion on dozens of instances on various scenarios. Certain aspects are tested in this case like game balance, ai, production, game sequence, etc. We did have a few players get close to the end of the 41 campaign but all the smaller scenarios were played through.

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Post #: 45

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 7:13:04 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

The most frustrating thing is that many bug fixes seem to generate other bugs - often in game situations (FREX Multiple States of War ) or option sets that no one has time to try. Add to that if you are doing an update a week, the beta testers (all of whom actually have real lives to lead) have about 48 hours to test things.

Trying to code a game with so many complicated rules, exceptions and options - and stay as true as possible to the rules - makes MWiF "A Subway Named Mobius".

That's what makes it so different from strategic games designed for a computer where the designer controls everything he wants to simulate and can simply toss out some especially complex-to-code feature or option he'd thought of putting in originally - because nobody knows it would violate rule XYZ.

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Post #: 46

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 9:42:34 PM

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Joined: 5/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The most frustrating thing is that many bug fixes seem to generate other bugs - often in game situations (FREX Multiple States of War ) or option sets that no one has time to try. Add to that if you are doing an update a week, the beta testers (all of whom actually have real lives to lead) have about 48 hours to test things.

Trying to code a game with so many complicated rules, exceptions and options - and stay as true as possible to the rules - makes MWiF "A Subway Named Mobius".

That's what makes it so different from strategic games designed for a computer where the designer controls everything he wants to simulate and can simply toss out some especially complex-to-code feature or option he'd thought of putting in originally - because nobody knows it would violate rule XYZ.

Damn paul I was just typing everything you wrote word for word but you posted it one minute before I could, oh well, I second your observation. And third it.

Take a good programmer of computer war games like Gary Grigsby, War in the Pacific, War in the East, now coming War in the West, how long did it take him to complete these games, what logic did he use what rules did he follow, well we should know the rules were his rules made up by him, like paul said if it didnt work real well scrap it and do something different. Not a dig against Gary just a thought on my part.

Steve did not have that luxury, he had to follow the most comprehensive rules ever made for a board war game EXACTLY. I just played three turns of Barbarossa again with only one bug that I never saw before and could not recreate it. I have played Guadalcanal over and over solo and it was near perfect until netplay came into the picture. Fixing something in net play caused complications in the main game until recently.

I know this wont sit well with some players but I say can the netplay for awhile and work on the AI, that way everyone could get back immersed into the game.

Just an opinion

Please dont do that to me.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 1/26/2014 10:58:49 PM >

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 47

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 10:07:12 PM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline

I will be the first to admit that MWIF is, at least IMO, the best recreation of a complex war boardgame that I have ever seen. Steve has done an incredible job so far and I am looking forward to playing it against an AI. I'm just a bit flustered with Netplay.

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Post #: 48

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/26/2014 10:49:16 PM

Moltke71

Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I will be the first to admit that MWIF is, at least IMO, the best recreation of a complex war boardgame that I have ever seen. Steve has done an incredible job so far and I am looking forward to playing it against an AI. I'm just a bit flustered with Netplay.

Bo.

Your points are good. However, as a reviewer, how long can I hold off saying this or that is on its way? I do wait for patches and get slammed for it. No big deal but time limits must be drawn. Do I write that solo play omyt includes both sides or should I wait for Netplay? Devs' choice.

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Post #: 49

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 2:21:32 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I will be the first to admit that MWIF is, at least IMO, the best recreation of a complex war boardgame that I have ever seen. Steve has done an incredible job so far and I am looking forward to playing it against an AI. I'm just a bit flustered with Netplay.

Bo.

Your points are good. However, as a reviewer, how long can I hold off saying this or that is on its way? I do wait for patches and get slammed for it. No big deal but time limits must be drawn. Do I write that solo play omyt includes both sides or should I wait for Netplay? Devs' choice.

No, you don't get slammed for it. You have the right to ask for things to be repaired. However, nobody has the right to say in what order and what timetable bugs will get repaired. That's, unfortunately, the priviledge of the programmer. He decides which and what gets priority and what will get fixed first.
Yes, it's a devils choice. I agree. I only say to everyone: be patient.
If solitair runs smoothly, it will also run good in Netplay. Only problem we've got now is that the game is so complex, that bugs were found that we beta testers didn't knew existed. Some due to other computer configurations, some due to the fact that in certain area's of MWIF, the outcome of things is so different at all times, you never can expect things to go the same way again and again.

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Post #: 50

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 3:30:05 PM

Numdydar

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I will be the first to admit that MWIF is, at least IMO, the best recreation of a complex war boardgame that I have ever seen. Steve has done an incredible job so far and I am looking forward to playing it against an AI. I'm just a bit flustered with Netplay.

Bo.

Your points are good. However, as a reviewer, how long can I hold off saying this or that is on its way? I do wait for patches and get slammed for it. No big deal but time limits must be drawn. Do I write that solo play omyt includes both sides or should I wait for Netplay? Devs' choice.

Good question Bismark. This why the article I wrote about MWiF when it was released was not a 'review' but suggestions on how to learn the game. So if you wanted to write something about MWiF, rather than an official review, I would suggest to do a 'current state' type article. This way you can highlight the good things (which there are a lot of btw

), highlight some of the issues, and the steps being taken to correct them. This gives the audience the facts about the game and allows them to decide what to do which providing a 'score' or other type of buy indicator.

I personally think a game of this type does not lend itself to a normal comper game review at all. As Bo said, the game HAD to be coded this way so Steve had NO flexibility in designing the game or changing how it worked because the coding become too difficult. It is not like Steve could say, "Production Planning is too complex. Let's simplifyit so it is easier to program and for players to understand."

I would not think a real review of the game can be done at all until the AI is done. When I bought on release day, I figured I was paying for early access into a very mature beta version. So that may be why I have no issues with the current game state

I generally make that assumption on any game I buy these days, not just MWiF. Really helps keep things in check if you do not expect perfection for 6-12 months after release. And sometimes not even then

I would much rather assume that games I buy will be POSs and then be surprised when they are not, versus thinking this is going to be Great and then have it let me down. This may help explain why my doctor thinks I run a lot

. Ha, Not

(in reply to Moltke71)

Post #: 51

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 3:46:24 PM

Moltke71

Posts: 1253
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Interesting idea. I'm running it by my editor. Thanks.

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Post #: 52

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 4:14:58 PM

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Joined: 5/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I will be the first to admit that MWIF is, at least IMO, the best recreation of a complex war boardgame that I have ever seen. Steve has done an incredible job so far and I am looking forward to playing it against an AI. I'm just a bit flustered with Netplay.

Bo.

Your points are good. However, as a reviewer, how long can I hold off saying this or that is on its way? I do wait for patches and get slammed for it. No big deal but time limits must be drawn. Do I write that solo play omyt includes both sides or should I wait for Netplay? Devs' choice.

I trully cant say anything is on its way, but in dealing with Steve over the years I am confident that net play is on its way the AI is on its way the 2 half maps are on its way. We testers had a very short span of time to test net play before we heard of the release date of Nov 7th. I cannot speak for other testers but I did not feel the net play was ready, I do believe that there was pressure for a release date from whoever and that net play would be brought up to readiness as soon as possible.

Maybe we should have waited several months, then several more months, maybe a year. Maybe it was best to release it on Nov 7th I dont know the answer to that, I do know this though with all the new beta testers [buyers of the game] all the problems will be on the table a lot quicker for Steve to solve.

I am not sure what you mean by "getting slammed for it" has anyone come down on you or been insulting to you in any way? I am a little confused about your statement about being a reviewer, reviewer for who? Help me out here please. I hate to speak out of turn here and right now that is what I am doing, please bring me out into the light, thank you.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 1/27/2014 5:23:13 PM >

(in reply to Moltke71)

Post #: 53

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 4:26:27 PM

Moltke71

Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline

I've never been insulted here but, after 20+ years of reviewing, I've taken some heat now and then for not reviewing "out of the box" if I knew a major patch was coming. Since editors and readers still tolerate me, I'll soldier on.

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Post #: 54

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 5:11:34 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

Mr. Bismarck has put his name in his signature. Now that name rings a bell. The Wargamer isn't it.

For my two cents, I think the MWIF will become the strategic wargame on the computer, for the reasons Bo has stated. But mark the words: "when it is finished"...

It's really work in progress at the moment and if you would have to make a review based on what it has to become compared to what it is now, I don't think that is reasonable.

At the moment, it is only really playable in solitair and hot seat mode and that's not enough for a complete review if you look at all the things which still have to be added (netplay, multiplayer, optional rules, AI, PBEM)...

Now, if you would only review it using solitair play, you see how the different parts of the armed forces interconnect in MWIF. That makes it unique. Also, it's complex, very complex. Every move you make or not make has consequences. This means that you have to think and think hard.
Even in solitair play, there are going to be things players are going to forget. There is so much to remember and so much information available that I call those things the Fog of war...

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Peter

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Post #: 55

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 5:24:50 PM

Moltke71

Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline

The Wargamer and Armchairgeneral.com. I like latitude of action.

I think Numdyar idea's interesting; not a review per se but a description and a tale of development. I've been following WiF since it was released and find the process fascinating.

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Post #: 56

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 5:33:04 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

I've never been insulted here but, after 20+ years of reviewing, I've taken some heat now and then for not reviewing "out of the box" if I knew a major patch was coming. Since editors and readers still tolerate me, I'll soldier on.

Reviewing MWIF fully is going to be difficult and take a lot of personal time. For instance, before even starting to play the game, you need to consider the tutorial videos (6 hours 40 minutes), the 10 picture and text tutorials (125 pages), the interactive tutorials (100+ 'instruction' pages), and the 700+ pages of the Players Manual.

Then there's the currently available 54 optional rules and the 9 scenarios.

The size of the map, the number of units and unit types, the 150+ phases/subphases/sub-subphases/digressions, and the 90+ forms will take time to absorb.

Besides digesting all that material, there is also the task of assembling a coherent discussion about all of it. I find myself reduced to long lists (like the ones above) when describing MWIF; and lists do not make for an interesting story/narrative.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Moltke71)

Post #: 57

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 5:42:51 PM

Moltke71

Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline

I'm retired now and have nothing but time - overlooking cataract surgery, the occasional class and meetings. I look forward to immersing myself in WiF. The Armchairgeneral editor is very good about giving me time if I explain why I need it.

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Jim Cobb

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 58

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 6:20:12 PM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

I'm retired now and have nothing but time - overlooking cataract surgery, the occasional class and meetings. I look forward to immersing myself in WiF. The Armchairgeneral editor is very good about giving me time if I explain why I need it.

I hope you have a good understanding of the boardgame. Using it to compare with MWIF will hopefully allow readers to really understand how remarkable MWIF is. The details of the map, the counter set, the game sequence, the ruleset. I know there have been quite a few computer games that have tried to duplicate a boardgame, some are good some not so good, but this one by far is the best duplication I have ever seen. I know once netplay is worked out and the AI added, it will prove to be one of the top all time classics.

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(in reply to Moltke71)

Post #: 59

RE: New Update v1.1.0 Now Available! - 1/27/2014 9:10:07 PM

Dabrion

Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The most frustrating thing is that many bug fixes seem to generate other bugs - often in game situations (FREX Multiple States of War ) or option sets that no one has time to try. Add to that if you are doing an update a week, the beta testers (all of whom actually have real lives to lead) have about 48 hours to test things.

Trying to code a game with so many complicated rules, exceptions and options - and stay as true as possible to the rules - makes MWiF "A Subway Named Mobius".

That's what makes it so different from strategic games designed for a computer where the designer controls everything he wants to simulate and can simply toss out some especially complex-to-code feature or option he'd thought of putting in originally - because nobody knows it would violate rule XYZ.

Complexity and coupling of code passages is not intrinsic to wargames. There are means to address this. I find the "it's so incredibly hard, it can never be done" tune to be a sad excuse for not using modern software engineering and agile development techniques.

The issue here is not with the problem domain or the solution itself. If you had unit tests, you would immediately know if that new code change impacts code written earlier. You also could automate 80% of what is called "beta testing" in MWiF terms. I can see how this all is a very frustrating experience, monkey patching code all the time.. doesn't have to be that way..

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�WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.�
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 60