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Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/29/2014 12:52:11 PM

Wirraway_Ace

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This is not intended as a "which was better" thread.

In one of my games, I just had the first clean Kagero versus Fletcher engagement that I can recall seeing.

Late 43, my opponent sent 6 new Fletchers to raid a port I was unloading supplies within my operational depth. I had 4 Kageros set to patrol the hex.

It was a daylight action.

Outcome. Wait for it...

1 Kagero sunk, 2 lightly damaged. 3 Fletchers sunk, 1 damaged enough it was unable to escape the air umbrella and was sunk by bombers.

I just wanted to pass this on to all the IJN players who may suffer EFFS (Extreme Fletcher Fear Syndrome).

Of course, you are outnumbered 10:1, but still...

Mike

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/29/2014 6:31:37 PM

rev rico

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Yeah, I want to know WHAT HAPPENED since it was my Fletchers. I heard so much about their power that I figured I'd try a raid. AH!

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/29/2014 8:27:06 PM

ny59giants

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TF leader and possibly individual ship leadership qualities. Crew experience on early war Fletchers are not that good. In my experience I can see these results at night, but am somewhat surprised to see it during daylight.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/29/2014 8:48:58 PM

offenseman

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Later the Fletchers are great platforms. Much better than the IJN CLs ship for ship. Obviously more robust than the IJN DDs.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/29/2014 8:58:39 PM

EHansen

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The Fletchers that arrive in 1944 have much higher crew experience levels and really do well.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/29/2014 10:33:24 PM

PaxMondo

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I absolutely beleive this result, and I also beleive that if you ran this raid 10x, this would only happen once. The other 9 times it would be a very different story. IJ DD's can hold their own against Fletchers IF they get surprise ... toe2toe though the Fletchers will generally just eat the IJ DD's up ... my experience, YMMV.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/29/2014 11:03:01 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I absolutely beleive this result, and I also beleive that if you ran this raid 10x, this would only happen once. The other 9 times it would be a very different story. IJ DD's can hold their own against Fletchers IF they get surprise ... toe2toe though the Fletchers will generally just eat the IJ DD's up ... my experience, YMMV.

+1

The Yamatos, however, did very well against Fletchers in a recent battle in mine.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/30/2014 4:24:59 AM

crsutton

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Yep, this is just one battle. If I were a betting man I would take the Fletchers and give you points...

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/30/2014 12:04:17 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I absolutely beleive this result, and I also beleive that if you ran this raid 10x, this would only happen once. The other 9 times it would be a very different story. IJ DD's can hold their own against Fletchers IF they get surprise ... toe2toe though the Fletchers will generally just eat the IJ DD's up ... my experience, YMMV.

+1

The Yamatos, however, did very well against Fletchers in a recent battle in mine.

Yeah, I won't even use CA's against Fletchers .. smallest that I know will work are Kongo's ... and you only get 4 of those and the allies get about a zillion Fletchers ...

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/30/2014 12:04:39 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yep, this is just one battle. If I were a betting man I would take the Fletchers and give you points...

Many points ...

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/30/2014 12:49:33 PM

Wirraway_Ace

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Ok, at the risk of doing exactly what I started the thread saying was not the intent...

Until the fire control radar becomes highly developed late in the war, how unequal are they in battle?
Without looking at the WiTP AE data base...

They are both the same size, about 2500 tons, and about the same speed (within a knot of each other with the advantage to the Fletcher).
The Fletcher was very lightly armored. Carries 5 x 5/38 and 10 torps.
The Kagero carries 6 x 5/50 and 8 torps.
Rate of fire on the Kagero twin turrets is probably lower than the Fletcher singles and the Fletcher has a CIC while the Kagero does not. Range, AA, ASW and radar all are advantages to the Fletcher class, but in combat, other than the aforementioned fire control radar, the two look pretty even. Seems likely crew experience in 43 and early 44 will be the key factor until the fire control radar becomes dominant.
Mike

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/30/2014 11:53:27 PM

crsutton

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A Fletcher is better than any Japanese DD at any time during the war-no matter experience. Fletcher is the only DD in the game with armor. A lot of Japanese DD shells will not penetrate. Nor will lighter AA armament while the Fletcher's excellent 40 mm will tear up an unarmored DD at close range.

A 43 Fletcher is just fine. After 1/44 when they get fully working torpedoes and night skills in the 60-70 range-well lets just say it only gets better.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/31/2014 1:38:40 AM

PaxMondo

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I have to agree with crsutton on this. I'm not expert enough on guns to know the exact differences between the Kagero and Fletcher like John (Symon) would, but I do know the in game results which closely follow the results from the war ... Fletchers are a very tough customer. I won't challenge them with even Tone CA's because while I might not lose a Tone, it will be out of the war for a year after the encounter. As the IJ, I can't afford to have a Tone out for 12 months in the SY just to sink one or two Fletchers. Konga class is the smallest class I feel relatively safe with, but even then a torp hit can ruin your day.

The truth is after 43 the best you can hope for is something like what 1275 just did in his AAR or obvert in his. You hope you can hit enough AP and AKA's to justify losing all the BB/CA/DD's you will lose in a surface engagement. You're going to sacrifice a bunch of ships hoping you can get to the landing force. After 12/43, any surface engagement for the IJ is going to be very expensive and you won't have too many of them ...

This is a tough adjustment for many players to make as in '42 the Kageros and Yugumos rule the seas. Brooklyn class is about the only thing out there to cause trouble and there aren't that many of those in '42. Mainly you just need to get the BOISE!!

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/31/2014 8:08:02 PM

Dili

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quote:

A lot of Japanese DD shells will not penetrate.

That doesn't not make any sense.

Also if in daylight + good visibility a Fletcher should be at disadvantage due to worse range of main gun vs a pure modern naval gun of same caliber.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/31/2014 8:31:19 PM

Amoral

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

A lot of Japanese DD shells will not penetrate.

That doesn't not make any sense.

Also if in daylight + good visibility a Fletcher should be at disadvantage due to worse range of main gun vs a pure modern naval gun of same caliber.

I think you are right that Fletcher wouldn't deflect a shell from Kagero's main armament. But secondary weapons also fire. The Fletcher shrugs off the 25mm fire from Kagero, but Kagero is shredded by the return 40mm bofors.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 1/31/2014 9:05:36 PM

obvert

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Fletchers in 44 are tough sons of bitches.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR January 11, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Time Surface Combat, near Milne Bay at 101,133, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 2
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 5
DD Naganami, Shell hits 1
DD Kiyonami, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Michishio, Shell hits 1
DD Murasame, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Yudachi
DD Samidare, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Uranami

Allied Ships
DD Jenkins, Shell hits 1
DD Nicholas, Shell hits 1
DD O'Bannon
DD Stanly, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Strong, Shell hits 1
DD Selfridge, Shell hits 2
DD Balch, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
DD Clark, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

Improved night sighting under 100% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 100% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 24,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 8,000 yards
Coward, Jesse G. crosses the 'T'
BB Hyuga engages DD Clark at 8,000 yards
DD Clark sunk by DD Yudachi at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Balch at 3,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Stanly at 11,000 yards
Task forces break off...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Milne Bay at 101,133, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Shell hits 5
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 7
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 16, on fire
DD Naganami, Shell hits 20, and is sunk
DD Kiyonami, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
DD Michishio, Shell hits 5, on fire
DD Murasame, Shell hits 19, and is sunk
DD Yudachi, Shell hits 1
DD Samidare, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Uranami, Shell hits 25, and is sunk

Allied Ships
DD Fletcher, Shell hits 6, on fire
DD Bache, Shell hits 2
DD Bradford, Shell hits 13, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Conway, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Cony, Shell hits 3
DD DeHaven, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Eaton, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
DD McKee, Shell hits 5, on fire

Improved night sighting under 100% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 100% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 8,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 8,000 yards

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/31/2014 10:06:28 PM >

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 2/1/2014 2:25:48 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

A lot of Japanese DD shells will not penetrate.

That doesn't not make any sense.

Also if in daylight + good visibility a Fletcher should be at disadvantage due to worse range of main gun vs a pure modern naval gun of same caliber.

Range of the main guns shouldn't matter at all in a DD vs DD fight as none of the sides will hit each other at maximum range

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 2/1/2014 9:39:29 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

A lot of Japanese DD shells will not penetrate.

That doesn't not make any sense.

Also if in daylight + good visibility a Fletcher should be at disadvantage due to worse range of main gun vs a pure modern naval gun of same caliber.

I am strictly talking in game terms.

In real life quite frankly with thin skinned vessels it was usually the first one to land a full salvo that won the fight. Penetrating hits from four or five 5 inch shells would just wreck a ship's systems and cause havoc. In this respect the Fletcher's had the advantage hands down as they had a much more sophisticated fire control and radar systems allowing for an edge in almost all scenarios. However, that does not mean in any give circumstance a Kagero could not bite first and bite hard.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 2/2/2014 4:25:08 AM

topeverest

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Agree. In any one battle either side can pounce, but over a number of battles Fletchers are tough SOB's. With late war radar, well lets just say empire is at significant disadvantage. But that goes for most surface warfare late in the game. we could just as well state that with late war allied surface radar, an empire ship probably needs surprise to have a material chance to deliver more damage than received - all other things equal.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 2/2/2014 6:01:43 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Agree. In any one battle either side can pounce, but over a number of battles Fletchers are tough SOB's. With late war radar, well lets just say empire is at significant disadvantage. But that goes for most surface warfare late in the game. we could just as well state that with late war allied surface radar, an empire ship probably needs surprise to have a material chance to deliver more damage than received - all other things equal.

Yep, about right on there. And it is the way it should be.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 2/2/2014 7:10:06 PM

Symon

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Ya'll can agree amongst yourselves all you want, but the game paradigm might not work with your ... . There is no date based code thing that makes Allied ships work better. Let me repeat that for those who didn't catch it the first time around; There is no date based code thing that makes Allied ships work better. Hello. Knock, knock. Welcome to the wonderful world of data flexibility. Ciao. JWE

< Message edited by Symon -- 2/2/2014 8:11:04 PM >

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 2/2/2014 7:11:36 PM

witpqs

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Missed a post.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 2/2/2014 8:12:10 PM >

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 2/2/2014 7:30:20 PM

Dili

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quote:

I am strictly talking in game terms.
In real life quite frankly with thin skinned vessels it was usually the first one to land a full salvo that won the fight. Penetrating hits from four or five 5 inch shells would just wreck a ship's systems and cause havoc.

Fair enough and i agree that those that receive the first hit in a such small ships risk being in irrecoverable disadvantageous position.

quote:

In this respect the Fletcher's had the advantage hands down as they had a much more sophisticated fire control and radar systems allowing for an edge in almost all scenarios.

My point was for a day battle with good visibility. A Kagero can start firing first and achieve a lucky hit. Also has one more gun tube than Fletchers, compensated later by Fletchers probable heavier rate of fire when a tracking is achieved.

quote:

Range of the main guns shouldn't matter at all in a DD vs DD fight as none of the sides will hit each other at maximum range

The range of the gun shows those which have more tense trajectory which mean a better chance of hit probability at shorter ranges. There is a reason that modern naval and AA guns of the time had a calibre tube length of around /50 instead of /38.

The 5/38 was compromise to achieve higher rates of fire maintaining a surface capability with a non automatic gun. In ballistics would be always mediocre compared to a pure naval gun or a pure AA gun.

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RE: Kageros versus Fletchers - 2/3/2014 2:20:16 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Ya'll can agree amongst yourselves all you want, but the game paradigm might not work with your ... . There is no date based code thing that makes Allied ships work better. Let me repeat that for those who didn't catch it the first time around; There is no date based code thing that makes Allied ships work better. Hello. Knock, knock. Welcome to the wonderful world of data flexibility. Ciao. JWE

I can only go from my own experience which may be the results of many other factors due to the way my own opponents and I use our ships. However the one constant from my observations is that the Fletcher class seem much more resistant to penetrating hits than any other DD. I would say that over the long run this is a distinct advantage. Otherwise there is little difference.

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