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Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 9:20:04 AM   
warspite1


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From: England
Status: offline 		Given its the 100th anniversary of start of the Great War, I thought it would be interesting to hear peoples views on this.

There has been a lot of books and programs over the recent past that have challenged the "Germany did it" version of events. Have people been swayed by these arguments? Have they always held a different view anyway? or have they read the new ideas and rejected them?

Its a fascinating subject - anyone interested in such a debate?

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 9:22:17 AM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Germany, France and Russia all wanted war in 1914, but the Germans were definitely the aggressive power. Austria-Hungary was merely a tool for Germany.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 9:28:33 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Germany, France and Russia all wanted war in 1914, but the Germans were definitely the aggressive power. Austria-Hungary was merely a tool for Germany.
warspite1

Thank-you for getting the ball-rolling Terminus.

That's one for the "traditional" view, although would certainly be interested to hear more on the idea that France and Russia also wanted war in 1914.


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 9:33:08 AM   
warspite1


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From: England
Status: offline 		Sorry I should have said, I am very much in the "Germany is to blame camp". She gave Austria-Hungary the "blank cheque" without which the latter could have not attacked Serbia. That said, life is never that straightforward and there were clearly other factors involved that helped the war to come about.

Interestingly, even if the "It was Germany's fault" position is true, then there is the question of WHO within the seat of power made it happen.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 10:28:05 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Interestingly, even if the "It was Germany's fault" position is true, then there is the question of WHO within the seat of power made it happen.


I don't think it's easy to answer that question, Warspite It's not black or white. Historians (not military historians) evade the XIX century concept of the Big Man as the center of everything.

Something along these lines "if Napoleon did not exist French society would have invented him".

In any case, the years before WW1 there were at least minimum 4 or 5 international crises. Eventually they lead to a major massacre ie the war.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 10:31:35 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Interestingly, even if the "It was Germany's fault" position is true, then there is the question of WHO within the seat of power made it happen.


I don't think it's easy to answer that question, Warspite It's not black or white. Historians (not military historians) evade the XIX century concept of the Big Man as the center of everything.

Something along these lines "if Napoleon did not exist French society would have invented him".

In any case, the years before WW1 there were at least minimum 4 or 5 international crises. Eventually they lead to a major massacre ie the war.
warspite1

No its not an easy question to answer - hence I thought it would be a good subject for debate amongst military/history enthusiasts

As for your comment about "eventually they lead to a major massacre" yes quite so, but what was it that led that international crisis to World War I?


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 10:50:05 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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Status: offline 		If we are to follow the official account, that Serbian terrorist started the whole thing.

I suppose most of the belligerants were simply rapacious

1) Gemany wanted her place under the sun (colonies ie markets)
2) France wanted her revenge (Alsace, Lorraine)
3) Russia wanted to rob Turkey and grab some more land
4) the British Empire wanted to get rid of a dangerous new Big Boy (Germany)

So if basically of all them had some [rapacious] goal, it's complicated to say who was the nasty starter (unlike in WW2: Germany and Japan were clearly the rapacious side). And all of them marched happily to the front.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 10:51:37 AM   
Chickenboy


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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Two thoughts:

1. Germany was directly responsible for the aggressive stance in Europe at the time. Der Kaiser and his attitudes-cultural, spiritual and otherwise had everything to do with his willingness to sow wholesale slaughter across the continent.

2. The scope and breadth of WWI was THE classic example to heed George Washington's views against "entangling Alliances". Far too many countries engaged in the war because of some sense of treaty duty or responsibility. Had there been a lesser willingness to engage in this self-perpetuating nonsense, the conflict would likely have been muted-or at least not killed as many as it did.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 11:17:01 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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Status: offline 		One more thing: WWII has blurred everything. It has reinforced the idea that Germany was the XX Century Uber Agressor. But this is an a posteriori (from 1945).

But as regards WWI you should notice that serious historians don't put the 100% of the blame on Germany.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 11:53:31 AM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Britain was very unenthusiastic about going to war. Despite their (very flimsy) alliance with France, they still felt more kinship with the Germans, and also traditionally had very little interest in European politics, being more focused on maintaining their empire.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 11:59:16 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Britain was very unenthusiastic about going to war. Despite their (very flimsy) alliance with France, they still felt more kinship with the Germans, and also traditionally had very little interest in European politics, being more focused on maintaining their empire.
warspite1

What interest there was in European affairs was limited to ensuring that no one - not the Spanish, French or anyone, had hegemony.

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Post #: 11
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 12:04:08 PM   
Hotschi


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From: Austria
Status: offline 		Fact is that the Habsburgs (i.e. Kaiser Franz Joseph) of Austria-Hungary wanted a showdown with Serbia.

That the assassin (Gavrilo Princip) of the Austro-Hungarian heir Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo happened to be of Serbian nationality, made it very easier to issue some impossible ultimatum to Serbia - to get the "jolly little war" Franz Joseph wanted.

Buuuuut....since Russia was by treaty allied with Serbia, and other players in Europe had a plethora of other issues to settle.... bang.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 12:12:40 PM   
Darkspire


Posts: 1986
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From: My Own Private Hell
Status: offline 		Franz Ferdinand was assassinated which caused a war between Hungary(?) and Serbia. Think that is was dominoes after that as everyone seemed to kick off and the war started. (It's a good job they didn't have Facebook).

Darkspire

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 12:16:31 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
What interest there was in European affairs was limited to ensuring that no one - not the Spanish, French or anyone, had hegemony.


Yes, that had been the Big Supreme Goal of the British since the 1500s. and they indeed prevailed

In this case (WWI), Germany had become a serious threat. By 1900 they had already surpassed the British (industrial power).

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 12:19:13 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
But as regards WWI you should notice that serious historians don't put the 100% of the blame on Germany.


Of course not. There were more than one potential belligerents out there "spoiling" for a fight. I'll not list them all. Germany heads the list by a long mark.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 12:20:47 PM   
Hotschi


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From: Austria
Status: offline 		Austro-Hungarian Monarchy - also known as Austro-Hungarian Empire, or Austro-Hungarian Monarchy or k.u.k. Monarchy, Austro-Hungary, Dual Monarchy, Danube Monarchy... heck seems they couldn't even settle on a name.

Hungary is without guilt here, darkspire. They had no say whatsoever - Hungary's king was Franz Joseph, emperor of that entity as described above.

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"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"

- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.

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Post #: 16
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 12:49:36 PM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I have a somewhat different view than most on this subject. But at the moment I am not really comfortable posting about it. I fear that this subject might turn into a flame war if one post against the majority view of things. And, although it is a hundred years ago, some might think this still is a political issue.

----

I am glad you begun this discussion Warspite1 since I have wanted similar threads for some time. But I've been to cowardly to begin them. I do hope that this thread stay civil so that more threads like this may thrive on this forum.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 12:50:06 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Fact is that the Habsburgs (i.e. Kaiser Franz Joseph) of Austria-Hungary wanted a showdown with Serbia.

That the assassin (Gavrilo Princip) of the Austro-Hungarian heir Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo happened to be of Serbian nationality, made it very easier to issue some impossible ultimatum to Serbia - to get the "jolly little war" Franz Joseph wanted.

Buuuuut....since Russia was by treaty allied with Serbia, and other players in Europe had a plethora of other issues to settle.... bang.
Warspite1

But wasn't the point that Austria couldn't run the risk of war with Serbia without German support (because of Russian support for the Serbs)?


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 1:06:54 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I have a somewhat different view than most on this subject. But at the moment I am not really comfortable posting about it. I fear that this subject might turn into a flame war if one post against the majority view of things. And, although it is a hundred years ago, some might think this still is a political issue.

----

I am glad you begun this discussion Warspite1 since I have wanted similar threads for some time. But I've been to cowardly to begin them. I do hope that this thread stay civil so that more threads like this may thrive on this forum.
warspite1

I would urge you to post Orm. There is no right or wrong answer because, quite simply, none of us will ever know for certain. I hope the debate will continue in the manner in which it has begun.

I cannot see that politics has anything to do with it - this is a historical discussion.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 1:16:48 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
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Status: offline 		Speaking of the 'P' word, I'm surprised Slaak hasn't jumped in...not that I want him to.

I would say WWI was 90% Germany's fault.
It's ironic that those empires ended by the war were among the most enthusiastic about starting it. Perhaps they saw it as a diversion from internal problems.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 1:35:34 PM   
Agathosdaimon


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Status: offline 		Its impossible to know for sure, but from what learned in history at university it seemed to be as much the fault of poor communication technologies between the various belligerents, and the their mobilisation plans were all behemoth wheels that once they started turning, which the numerous crises led to, no one had the means to stop them - and of course such plans in olace were not really made on the fly but formed out of previous ideas of how a war would run its course.
This said, although all the powers had their own plans in place it seems germanys attack on france and what horror it became - hmmm perhaps it was a war with still 19th century ideas but with 20th century technologies.... There are just too many factors...too much nationalistic sabre rattling on all sides

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 2:04:29 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Status: offline 		World War I happened because just about everybody wanted it. And not just the political leaders - the common folk in the street. Announcements of the war were met with jubilation. The soldiers marching to the front were gleeful, even giddy. Who wouldn't want a war? War is glorious! Thrilling!

The problem was that it had been a century since the last major war in Europe. Nobody was alive who remembered what it was really like. The history of that war had been romanticized clean of blood and gore. It was all glory.

Contrast this to Munich 24 years later. Now you had a generation that had seen the monkey show and knew what it meant. Appeasement was better than war by then. Everyone (one exception, of course) were bending over backwards to avoid war.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 2:25:27 PM   
chemkid

 

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Status: offline 		.

< Message edited by chemkid -- 4/24/2018 12:16:04 PM >

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 3:09:46 PM   
Hotschi


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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But wasn't the point that Austria couldn't run the risk of war with Serbia without German support (because of Russian support for the Serbs)?



True, but Germany would have had no reason to offer support, if A-H would not have wanted to punish Serbia in the first place. That's how I see it.


_____________________________

"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"

- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 24
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 3:28:02 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But wasn't the point that Austria couldn't run the risk of war with Serbia without German support (because of Russian support for the Serbs)?



True, but Germany would have had no reason to offer support, if A-H would not have wanted to punish Serbia in the first place. That's how I see it.

warspite1

Indeed. The AH position is one of the "other factors" I mentioned in post 4.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 3:36:40 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
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Status: offline 		The Illuminati caused WWI.
http://www.henrymakow.com/illuminati_bankers_planned_wor.html


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 3:38:24 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

The Illuminati caused WWI.
http://www.henrymakow.com/illuminati_bankers_planned_wor.html

warspite1

Good point. Hadn't thought of that possibility......


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Post #: 27
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 3:43:11 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2725
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Status: offline 		ON THAT NOTE SILLY WARSPITE2-NEWBLETTE I CHALLENGE U TO "FATAL ALLIANCES"!!!
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5466/fatal-alliances


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Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

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Post #: 28
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 3:44:54 PM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		I would say that the most direct actor in the start of WWI would be Austria-Hungary - not only did they really really want a military showdown with Serbia, and indeed crafted an ultimatum that was deliberately designed to be unacceptable, but they also arranged their diplomacy (or lack thereof) in such a way as to sabotage negotiations and basically make it all but impossible for the march to war to be halted.

THAT SAID:

Europe was already a powderkeg, and Germany had more than its share of responsibility in filling the chamber with coal fumes. A-H was simply taking advantage of "some damn fool thing in the Balkans".

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Post #: 29
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/8/2014 3:46:32 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
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From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

ON THAT NOTE SILLY WARSPITE2-NEWBLETTE I CHALLENGE U TO "FATAL ALLIANCES"!!!
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5466/fatal-alliances


I am game although I am not challenged.

But the distance, unfortunately, makes it difficult for us to play a boardgame.

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