Taking Gibraltar?

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Taking Gibraltar? - 2/9/2014 10:44:18 PM

alexvand

Posts: 380
Joined: 11/29/2007
From: Canada
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So I'm starting another solitaire game. I'd like to try having the axis take Gibraltar in 41 and a 42 Barb.

What does the axis need to do tactically to take Gibraltar and what do they need to produce in order to pull it off?

Post #: 1

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/9/2014 11:04:37 PM

Klydon

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Somewhat of a newb here, but against good CW play, I just don't see Gibraltar going down to the Axis. Yes, there is a chance no matter what that the Axis can pull it off, but the CW can stack 3 units in there and with attacker quartered from Spain, its nasty. The other issue is that in order to have a chance, the Axis are going to have to go through Spain and that takes time along with not being as easy as you may think.

Along with taking Spain, the Axis will likely need to have taken North Africa as well. In addition, the Axis either have to conquer France (no Vichy) or created Vichy, then collapsed Vichy.

Paratroopers will be your friend trying to take Gibraltar as well.

(in reply to alexvand)

Post #: 2

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/9/2014 11:13:46 PM

michaelbaldur

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Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
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I would say, Germany can always take Gibraltar .. they have the CW overpowered in planes and land units.

BUT... it willl take a big commitment and lots of casualties

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(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 3

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/9/2014 11:29:06 PM

Neilster

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Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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It sounds easy to stack Gibraltar but the CW can be stretched pretty thin, especially with a simultaneous credible Sealion/Suez threat.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to michaelbaldur)

Post #: 4

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 12:13:35 AM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
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From: on a mountain in Idaho
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Not having played that much, I don't really see how it is even feasible to take Gibraltar. Isn't it a mountain hex? So the CW could easily get that up to a 20+ defense. If the Germans go thru Spain, there seems to be plenty of time to beef up Gibraltar.

Even if N Africa is Axis owned, and attacking across the straights, I don't see there being even a 2 to 1 attack possibility. Even with Axis paratroopers and as much air as possible, CW air and Naval forces can pretty much make Gibraltar next to impossible to take.

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Post #: 5

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 1:05:20 AM

Majorball68

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Don't forget you can isolate Gilbratar and put it Out of Supply. To keep it supplied CW must keep Naval units or Convoys in the sea areas depending which supply rule is used. The Axis should have control of the sea zones with air power so it can be very expensive in ships and planes for the CW to maintain Gilbratar in supply. You will also have to keep naval assets at sea at the end of turn but you run the risk of not having enough and they get sunk meaning you get a free hit on Gilbratar should you be able to flip the defenders.

(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 6

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 1:17:41 AM

monkla

Posts: 56
Joined: 3/16/2003
From: Adelaide, Australia
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I've seen numerous games at wif conventions where the Axis have attempted to take Gibraltar and in almost every case they succeed. Even with a fort hexside. It is just a matter of time before either the Gibraltar is put out of supply or the defenders are flipped. Then if the Germans launch enough attacks, they'll eventually roll high enough.

(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 7

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 1:50:47 AM

WarHunter

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

So I'm starting another solitaire game. I'd like to try having the axis take Gibraltar in 41 and a 42 Barb.

What does the axis need to do tactically to take Gibraltar and what do they need to produce in order to pull it off?

The key to taking Gibraltar is putting it out of supply. Also single minded pursuit if an assault or 2 fails. On the impulse this is accomplished, attack.

This means control of both sea zones adjacent to the port. Also control of Tangiers for an additional hex to attack from with marines.

Consider buying all of the following types of units. Make use of the Italian and German Force pools to get what you need.

Build subs, to stretch the RN into convoy protection. The key is not to attack with the subs as much as force the RN into far flung sea zones. If the convoys are open to attack, don't be gun shy.

Build your best possible Ground strikers. The axis needs to flip whatever is in Gibraltar.
Build Naval Air. Build fighters. Build all paratroopers and transports. Build Marines.

Keep the Garrison level up in the East. Expect the USSR to come up with some shenanigans while the axis are busy with Gibraltar. The Red Army won't sit there with a thumb up its backside.

The CW player if looking to put up a creditable defense will stack 2 white print units and a damn good division type unit and a fort hex-side. Also expect to see ports in range filled with transports and replacement units if an assault fails.

All is subject to the fickle finger of fate.

_____________________________

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(in reply to alexvand)

Post #: 8

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 2:15:34 AM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

quote:

ORIGINAL: alex_van_d

So I'm starting another solitaire game. I'd like to try having the axis take Gibraltar in 41 and a 42 Barb.

What does the axis need to do tactically to take Gibraltar and what do they need to produce in order to pull it off?

The key to taking Gibraltar is putting it out of supply. Also single minded pursuit if an assault or 2 fails. On the impulse this is accomplished, attack.

This means control of both sea zones adjacent to the port. Also control of Tangiers for an additional hex to attack from with marines.

Consider buying all of the following types of units. Make use of the Italian and German Force pools to get what you need.

Build subs, to stretch the RN into convoy protection. The key is not to attack with the subs as much as force the RN into far flung sea zones. If the convoys are open to attack, don't be gun shy.

Build your best possible Ground strikers. The axis needs to flip whatever is in Gibraltar.
Build Naval Air. Build fighters. Build all paratroopers and transports. Build Marines.

Keep the Garrison level up in the East. Expect the USSR to come up with some shenanigans while the axis are busy with Gibraltar. The Red Army won't sit there with a thumb up its backside.

The CW player if looking to put up a creditable defense will stack 2 white print units and a damn good division type unit and a fort hex-side. Also expect to see ports in range filled with transports and replacement units if an assault fails.

All is subject to the fickle finger of fate.

Yep..I kind of figured the Cw defense out. Just thinking it will be pretty tough and one heck of a gamble to get both adjacent sea zones controlled and then enough firepower to take out the defenses.

Is it worth it for the Axis to gamble the resources that will no doubt be needed on the Eastern front all too soon? I know securing the Med will prolong Italy, but the Axis can't be strong everywhere and most likely will leave an opening to exploit whether it be going in thru Portugal, Morocco, France, or even Germany.

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Post #: 9

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 3:55:11 AM

monkla

Posts: 56
Joined: 3/16/2003
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

[/quote]

Yep..I kind of figured the Cw defense out. Just thinking it will be pretty tough and one heck of a gamble to get both adjacent sea zones controlled and then enough firepower to take out the defenses.

Is it worth it for the Axis to gamble the resources that will no doubt be needed on the Eastern front all too soon? I know securing the Med will prolong Italy, but the Axis can't be strong everywhere and most likely will leave an opening to exploit whether it be going in thru Portugal, Morocco, France, or even Germany.
[/quote]

And that would be the million dollar question. Ask different people and you'll get different answers. Welcome to the world of WiF......

(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 10

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 3:57:05 AM

Klydon

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Joined: 11/28/2010
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Should the Axis manage to take Gibraltar, it will eventually lead to the Med becoming an Axis lake. This will prolong the effort it will take to get Italy out of the war as they don't really have to defend Italy proper with the Suez closed and Gibraltar in Axis hands. This is the big reason for the Axis to take Gibraltar in the first place.

Part of the issue in doing it, is it will likely bring the US into the war sooner between conquering France and also having to declare war on Spain. The CW is extremely likely to get credit for supporting an attack minor from the US as well as they will look to get 4 corps in Spain to prolong the campaign there and that isn't too hard to do.

The big issue for the CW is they just don't have the carrier planes that can strongly contest air superiority at sea for awhile and during the time period a Axis attack on Gibraltar may take place and they don't have enough space to use enough land based air to defend themselves against Axis air attack. This isn't a build strategy issue or anything like that. They simply don't have very good carrier air units for air superiority.

(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 11

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 5:21:12 AM

joshuamnave

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Joined: 1/8/2014
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As others have said, taking Gibraltar isn't really the issue. A single minded Axis attack will nearly always succeed, but it is costly on several fronts. You will lose expensive units, you will have to build units with Gibraltar in mind, you will lose precious tempo, and you will hasten US entry (conquer france, dow spain, conquer Gibraltar, and presumably Suez as well). That's a pretty high price to pay.

(in reply to Klydon)

Post #: 12

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 4:01:46 PM

WarHunter

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21
Yep..I kind of figured the Cw defense out. Just thinking it will be pretty tough and one heck of a gamble to get both adjacent sea zones controlled and then enough firepower to take out the defenses.

Is it worth it for the Axis to gamble the resources that will no doubt be needed on the Eastern front all too soon? I know securing the Med will prolong Italy, but the Axis can't be strong everywhere and most likely will leave an opening to exploit whether it be going in thru Portugal, Morocco, France, or even Germany.

It is quite a gamble. The reward is Italy secure. An expansion of potential sea zone targets to sub and surface attacks. Possible Sealion 41. It's useful to secure the Suez and middle East while the getting is good. Taking out the Med in a Counterclockwise method works well.

With this new map, The New World opens up to new possibilities. Panama anyone? Ok Ok I'm dreaming.

The biggest downsides are US entry to the War. This in turn hurts Japan. The Garrisons for Western Europe are going to be large also. Maybe a few Axis units to the Far East?

Gibraltar is one of three hexes on the map worthy of a US entry dieroll. Its a gamble where the ante includes the kitchen sink. No half measures.

Just be gracious enough to play it out if it fails. The Allied players will love you long time.

< Message edited by WarHunter -- 2/10/2014 5:03:12 PM >

_____________________________

�We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.�
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(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 13

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 5:46:47 PM

Centuur

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Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
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To take the Rock:

1st. conquer French North Africa and France.
2nd. build Para, Mar, NAV, TRS and Ground strike aircraft
3rd. conquer Spain and Spanish Morocco

Now, that was the easy part... Now for the more difficult part...
Threathen CW convoy lines with SUB's
Attack all CW shipping in the Western MED and the Cape St. Vincent using NAV and try to clear the sea area's of enemy shipping.
Ground strike the Rock (and be prepared to do it again and again and again, if just to keep long range CW FTR's disorganised).
- Attack Gibraltar using:
- Artillery to shell the Rock from overseas
- MAR to attack the Rock from Tangier
- INF to attack the Rock out of Spain itself
- 1 PARA and 1 invasion INF supported by a division
- Shore Bombardement with as many ships you can muster

Than, you probably won't clear the Rock. So reorganise all attacking units, get replacements ready next impulse and do it again...

And by the way, taking Suez first makes things a little more easier, since this blocks supply for the CW through the Med...

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(in reply to WarHunter)

Post #: 14

RE: Taking Gibraltar? - 2/10/2014 6:03:51 PM

WarHunter

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

To take the Rock:

1st. conquer French North Africa and France.
2nd. build Para, Mar, NAV, TRS and Ground strike aircraft
3rd. conquer Spain and Spanish Morocco

Now, that was the easy part... Now for the more difficult part...
Threathen CW convoy lines with SUB's
Attack all CW shipping in the Western MED and the Cape St. Vincent using NAV and try to clear the sea area's of enemy shipping.
Ground strike the Rock (and be prepared to do it again and again and again, if just to keep long range CW FTR's disorganised).
- Attack Gibraltar using:
- Artillery to shell the Rock from overseas
- MAR to attack the Rock from Tangier
- INF to attack the Rock out of Spain itself
- 1 PARA and 1 invasion INF supported by a division
- Shore Bombardement with as many ships you can muster

Than, you probably won't clear the Rock. So reorganise all attacking units, get replacements ready next impulse and do it again...

And by the way, taking Suez first makes things a little more easier, since this blocks supply for the CW through the Med...