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RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES"

 
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RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 10:17:34 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni
So I might have very good luck then. I had multiple PC installation problems and they sorted it out via email communication.


DRM related problems ? <evil grin>

I'm starting to see how *not* having a forum might be a huge advantage here - if too many people are having problems with installing the game and they posted about this in the company forum, this would certainly deter others from buying it. With email who's to know ?

A company forum is a bit like a public record of how a company treats its customers and how honest and open they are with regard to problems with the product - not having one is another strike against them in my eyes.

<edit>
stupid typo corrected
</edit>

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


< Message edited by sterckxe -- 9/30/2011 12:19:42 PM >

(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 31
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 1:24:13 PM   
mgarnett

 

Posts: 270
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
Then when someone like me just answers that OP question with plain facts, they suddenly come out of the woodwork and basically tell me to shut up


Well one obvious fact is you are a lot paranoid.
While you are waxing prophetic, I will be enjoying the games from John Tiller, Battlefront and the like.

Good luck.


The irony here being that this puppy here won't need to be lucky, but you will.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Or unlucky, depending on which side of the fence you are on!

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 32
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 2:21:31 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
I always get a chuckle out of some publishers thinking they're the only show in town and which throw up barriers between my $50 and their own bank account. Good luck getting that compensated by the $50 from some kid in China on a 10 cents a week allowance, which you prevented from pirating your game with your precious DRM.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


+1

Love that statement right there - in particular the bold.

I don't follow your advice as I buy what I want if I want it...but I totally agree with the statement. I know by buying what I want when I want doesn't really help combat developers who fit your statement - and I do wish I was more controlled...but I'm not.

Just wanted you to know I thought your statement makes 100% sense and "wtf are they thinking"?

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(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 33
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 2:55:31 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I don't follow your advice as I buy what I want if I want it.


Same here - but I find that after a day in the office dealing with Oracle licences here, M$ licences there, <F-swearword> Adobe all over the place, I have a natural aversion to dealing with that sort of stuff in my own free time.

The day I have to beg some 2-bit publisher to "please allow me to play my game I paid $50 for" is the day the computer goes out the window. I just won't put up with that sort of crap - excusez le mot - so the "want" factor of such a game is automatically below zero for me.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 34
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 7:36:06 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
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Status: offline 		I decided to move to Linux after Win98 after I had to activate WindowsXP on my mother's comp by phone.

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Post #: 35
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 10:23:35 PM   
Arctic Blast


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mgarnett

Neither is right or wrong, as long as you are prepared to make a decision and live by the decision, if you choose not to buy, be happy with that. If you choose to buy, be hapy with that also. There's no need or reason to try and convert a person from one train of thought to the other because that's pretty much impossible.


Mark


That pretty much nails it.


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Post #: 36
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 9/30/2011 10:33:55 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		I think alot of people "try", consiously or subconsiously, to convert people to enforce their policy.

For example, Eddy's statement is quite clear with regard to how he sees DRM. I'm not saying he's trying to convert anyone - but it makes sense that he "wants to spread the word" - because the fewer people that succumb to the drm that's becoming more prevelant, the less likely that drm will be around in the future (or the sooner it will meet it's demise)

And to be fair - you can look at Ubisoft and it's "always activate and connect" crap and see what kind of disasterous decisions some companies make. If it were not for people like Eddy making a stand against these DRM schemes, you'd be suffering "always connected" DRM from EVERY publisher....and that might be okay for you, or the next guy - but what about the wee guy who doesn't have a constant internet connection? So he's to give up gaming because we allow these buggers to get away with their DRM crap?

I totally respect people like Eddy and their stand. DRM is a bloody beast that should not be supported in any way shape or form. All it brings (truly) is grief for the legitimate purchaser.

We all have "levels". Eddy's is the Matrix system. Mine? I have no favoured one...as I said above if I want a game I'll buy it. I'm not helping Eddy's cause (or mine) by doing so...and that is my shame to bear.

DRM is NOT something that should be put in the way of a legitimate purchaser - and yet companies think it's fine. It's not.....

Eddy - if only I had the balls to stand by you I would...but I'm weak when it comes to my hobby. The shame of it is, I'm helping send it down the pan!

Whilst I don't actively support Eddy and his like (for selfish reasons), I totally respect their stand.

You should thank them for making a stand also. It's their efforts that have "slowed" these ridiculous DRM schemes that punish legitimate purchasers.

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 9/30/2011 10:38:19 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/1/2011 1:30:59 AM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		Well I guess I should re-chime in here since I was the culprit who asked the DRM question in the first place. For one, I stopped buying hard copy games which required the cd to run, because is that not a subtle form of a DRM? Sure if you loose the disc then it is your own fault but should some accidental or poorly pressed condition occur which prevents the disc from launching, then what do you do? And the storage, locating, handling and loading of different game cds just has waned my already thin patience. So since I have committed to a download gaming lifestyle, I either must pass on DRM games, or accept certain types of protection. I had decided some time ago that I would purchase games which only require the one time internet activation code. This allowed me to play some of my favorites such as Out of the Park Baseball,Football Manager and Battlefront titles. I do not buy games from Steam, Impulse or their ilk.

Now, the argument that a company may go belly up and thwart your efforts to re-install a game is quite a legitimate point that cannot be ignored. However, if I am honest with myself, I realize that I lose interest in a game far sooner than the company loses financial solvency.

So, if this new Tiller title intrigues me enough to warrant a purchase using the serial number activation, then I'll take the plunge.

I want to thank everyone for a most spirited and relevant discussion.

< Message edited by J P Falcon -- 10/1/2011 1:34:41 AM >

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 38
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/1/2011 1:54:10 AM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1823
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		It is slightly different - if my copy of (for example) System Shock 2 can't be re-installed from the original CD, then I can still find a new copy of the installation media - ebay frequently has installation media... and this will work as the DRM is a simple disc check (removed with the patch in any case IIRC). I can continue to use this software so long as I can find a usable image, and as long as my hardware can emulate a Win98/SVGA box or above.

A 'modern' DRM'd game which loses the activation server... you are out of luck unless you obtain a crack - the existence of which (if available) would make the whole activation hoo-ha an annoying irrelevance... and if it is as good as they claim, this allows someone to decide for you that (eg Bioshock 2) is the new best thing, and the older program is obsoleted/removed from the activation server - this might not be how it pans out, but a promise to continue support is only worth something when it is delivered - what might be possible in the future, particularly where big business is/can be involved... well, it might be that the marginal improvements in games 'core' begin to demand the forced obsolescence of older software - and this in turn forces the early obsoleting of hardware, as the new software that is all that might remain available won't function on older devices.

My favourite DRM scheme is actually that used by Esim for their Steelbeasts Pro/ProPE - a reusable multi-vendor/multi-license encryption device, and totally free distribution/installation of the software - which then requires exclusive 'sight' of any license to function - this can be a secondary license served by another user in a remote location, your own license on your local 'stick', it is possible to request additional licenses to eg host a Lan-meet, that are available for a specific time-period - which is making a 'cap-in-hand' request to the publisher - but not one that is to support the limited 'intention' to run the software, but to dramatically extend the flexibility of the software for both seller and user(s).

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 39
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/1/2011 5:44:43 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Eddy - if only I had the balls to stand by you I would...but I'm weak when it comes to my hobby. The shame of it is, I'm helping send it down the pan!

I'm not completely sure that anyone ought to feel it necessary to "stand by" Eddy, so much as to raise more substantive questions as to the value of that which Tiller is trying to sell us. Is it really just going to be one more knock-off, after another, and with no guarantee that the game actually belongs to buyers? There's stuff that's buried in the code of his games that's twenty years old. Seriously, take a look at the TS games. And I'm not fussing about the state of matters in the 1990's, but rather the perfectly-silly, 3-D isomorphic views that still plague his work.

Purchase a non-fungible license for a Tiller game, rather than own it outright?

Give me a break.




_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 40
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/1/2011 9:52:18 AM   
E

 

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Joined: 9/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
We all have "levels". Eddy's is the Matrix system. Mine? I have no favoured one...as I said above if I want a game I'll buy it. I'm not helping Eddy's cause (or mine) by doing so...and that is my shame to bear.


Indeed it is. The "crying shame" is that your 'shame' affects everyone. You've let ALL of us down.

In our century of need, YOU let us down. YOU turned your back on us. For what? A game? A couple of games? Where are they in the scheme of things? Were they really worth the end result? Every wargamer, let down by YOU. Discouraged. Stabbed in the back, by YOU. We stand Dejected. We're disheartened, depressed, destitute. ALL, thanks to YOU and your insatiable greed for shiny things (oh look, a butterfly!.

How can YOU live with yourself? How can YOU face yourself in the mirror? How can YOU shave without bringing the razor lower and harder? The sheer desolation instigated by YOUR deeds. It's a nightmare, created by YOUR wanton lust for the newest shiny trinket to appear on wargaming horizons. YOU have only three choices to save your soul.... 1) suicide, 2) move to Holland and stick your head in a dike, 3) send the key files/serial numbers to all those games to me, so that I may do a dance of rejuvination for both our souls (obviously, this is the preferred method to save YOUR soul, as it saves ANOTHER soul from the damnation of DRM).




























*grin*


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(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 41
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/1/2011 9:59:49 AM   
E

 

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

And I'm not fussing about the state of matters in the 1990's, but rather the perfectly-silly, 3-D isomorphic views that still plague his work.


Until you learn the definition of "isometric," I think he's legally safe from false accusations of isomorphic inclusions. *hee-hee* (read: *grin*)

But in reality, how does their inclusion affect you? You don't have to use them at all. Not to mention, his latest updates include an additional zoom level to the 2D maps (admittedly, I think the key command should have been "3" instead of "5" which is after the two isometric view levels).



_____________________________

"Lose" is the opposite of "win." "Loose" is the opposite of "tight."

Friends Don't Let Friends Facebook.

Twitter is for... (wait for it!) ...Twits!

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 42
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/1/2011 12:12:59 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

Well I guess I should re-chime in here since I was the culprit who asked the DRM question in the first place. For one, I stopped buying hard copy games which required the cd to run, because is that not a subtle form of a DRM? Sure if you loose the disc then it is your own fault but should some accidental or poorly pressed condition occur which prevents the disc from launching, then what do you do? And the storage, locating, handling and loading of different game cds just has waned my already thin patience.

Same here. Having to put CD in a CD-ROM drive each time one starts playing game makes the CDs deteriorate faster.
Actually it was the first form of DRM that I came to hate.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 43
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/1/2011 12:17:26 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		JT's usually reply over graphical updates or any major new feature in Squad batles series is money. They don't make enough money to warrent the investment.

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 44
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/1/2011 4:04:12 PM   
Gilmer


Posts: 1452
Joined: 7/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

The last thing on someones mind who is going out of business is to do any extra work even remotely related to what the business did before it went out of business.


That is exactly what I was thinking. I would think it might even be possible that they are hit with an injunction NOT to do anything else with their products depending on the way they are going out of business.

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 45
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/2/2011 2:29:12 PM   
Ron

 

Posts: 506
Joined: 6/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

The irony here being that this puppy here won't need to be lucky, but you will.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




Explain in your world view why I would need to be lucky? Did you have a vision?

Seriously spare the soapbox oratory - it is a game and we are all adults.

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 46
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/2/2011 3:29:31 PM   
Grim.Reaper


Posts: 1355
Joined: 12/31/2009
Status: offline 		Although I am not a fan of DRM, in my opinion it is here to stay so not much you can do about it. I appreciate that some people hold to their beliefs in this area and that is fine, but for me, time is too short too overly worry about it. If I had to guess, the people buying games with DRM far outweigh those that don't so gonna be hard to change the process.

To date I have not experienced any issues with any form of DRM so maybe I have just been lucky and at some point I will. Based on the ton of games I buy, that ratio will be acceptable to me since it likely would equate to the same amount of issues I have had buying a defective download without DRM or a CD-ROM where it has been defective.

My gaming style is playing a game for a relatively short period of time. Very few if any games I play for years and years. So although I understand a company could go out of business, hasn't happened to me yet and unless the company immediately goes out of business after release, likely not too impact me much.

In the end, if I worry about things I can't control too much, gonna miss out on some fun times with good games.

Again, just my view and I certainly appreciate other people's views may differ....

_____________________________


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Post #: 47
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/2/2011 5:16:50 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		I don't think it's possible to miss out fun times in modern times. There are huge numbers of various products whose sole purpose is to provide fun.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Grim.Reaper)
Post #: 48
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/3/2011 3:05:06 AM   
rhondabrwn


Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

The last thing on someones mind who is going out of business is to do any extra work even remotely related to what the business did before it went out of business.


That is exactly what I was thinking. I would think it might even be possible that they are hit with an injunction NOT to do anything else with their products depending on the way they are going out of business.


I did suffer from one such situation. Years ago there was a company making a line of "X-copy" products... Games and DVD's. I owned the Games X-Copy program (I may have the name twisted a bit) which I used to make archival copies of my game CD's and to be able to load a mirror copy of the game CD so I didn't need to physically dig it out and put it in the drive etc etc. Absolutely NEVER used for piracy.

Well, I'm sure a lot of people did use the program to illegally copy game disks and the company eventually was shut down and lost all their appeals. Despite assurances that were given, the authorization server went down and despite owning the product I could not reinstall it when I upgraded computers. So, I was out $79.

It certainly is possible that any of your games that require a server authorization for installation could end up being lost to you at some point. Not that I lose sleep over the possibility.

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to Gilmer)
Post #: 49
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/3/2011 3:15:30 AM   
rhondabrwn


Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline 		I should point out that Tiller has continued to provide HPS with upgrades to remove CD in drive requirements from all of his old HPS games. That was something he didn't need to do and I doubt that HPS is paying him to do it, but it shows his level of committment to people who buy his games.

I really have no fears about future loss of support from the new Tiller Games venture.

That said, I wish he just used the Matrix serial number system instead of anything requiring internet connectivity to install. I've had nothing but problems with DRM infested "Jutland" and "Rise of Flight" since I bought them. At the present time neither is working since I installed Windows 7 and had to reload my software. I'm on a 5 gig a month cap with Verizon out here on the ranch and "re-downloading and re-installing" multi-gig software isn't an option for me and that's what their support people tell me to do because of DRM changes (I have the original install files, but they don't work anymore). So, if I bust my data cap it's $10 to $20 extra on my bill with no guarantee that the new downloads will work correctly!

DRM... Bah... Humbug!

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to rhondabrwn)
Post #: 50
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/3/2011 7:28:14 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
The irony here being that this puppy here won't need to be lucky, but you will.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx

Explain in your world view why I would need to be lucky? Did you have a vision?


<edited>
In retrospect I deleted what I orginally wrote here as it is against the forum rules to make fun of a fellow forumite.
</edited>

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx





< Message edited by sterckxe -- 10/3/2011 8:25:31 AM >

(in reply to Ron)
Post #: 51
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 10/3/2011 9:33:17 AM   
Hexagon


Posts: 1133
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		Eeee guys, i think that is better talk about the game... well, do theories about it because info is cof cof cof

To talk about DRMs maybe is better use other post no?


(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 52
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 2/10/2014 7:44:55 AM   
PKH

 

Posts: 242
Joined: 11/17/2011
Status: offline 		There is some info and screen shots from the developers on theblitz.org. It looks a lot better than previous games from Tiller I think.
Apparently the game is very close to release now. It seems it will use 250m hexes, and 30min turns (seems very long to me). I hope they have new mechanics for combat as the way it works in the Squad Battles games is fundamentally broken and makes no sense.

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 53
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 2/10/2014 9:59:01 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon
I am curious about any DRM scheme that might be employed....


Call-home to a server upon installation. Once that server is gone you can kiss goodbye to your $50 game.

... and good luck complaining about installation or other game problems on their forum - they haven't got one.

It simply amazes me every time that there are actually people who buy stuff under these conditions.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Waaaah, waaaah... It simply amazes me that people STILL whine about this, and STILL look down their noses at the rest of us who choose to buy these games anyway. SHUT THE **** UP!!!!




There's the Terminus attitude I know and love. Must be about time for another 2weeks. Been awhile eh?

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 54
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 2/10/2014 10:08:49 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		That post was two and a half years ago...

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(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 55
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 2/10/2014 10:44:12 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Lots of screenshots on my Tactical Wargames facebook page. Hoping to get some exclusives on it.

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https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

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Post #: 56
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 2/10/2014 3:02:23 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
That post was two and a half years ago...


... and I'm still not buying DRM-chained games

The older I get, the lesser my tolerance for this licensing crap. The things people put up with simply amazes me.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 57
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 2/10/2014 3:22:36 PM   
z1812


Posts: 1796
Joined: 9/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
That post was two and a half years ago...


... and I'm still not buying DRM-chained games

The older I get, the lesser my tolerance for this licensing crap. The things people put up with simply amazes me.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Why not just let people do what they wish and discuss a game without lamenting about the same old DRM issues. If you feel you must discuss it start up a specific thread. This discussion is already old and very boring. People want to discuss Panzer Battles not your likes and dislikes about DRM.

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 58
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 2/10/2014 6:04:26 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
That post was two and a half years ago...


... and I'm still not buying DRM-chained games

The older I get, the lesser my tolerance for this licensing crap. The things people put up with simply amazes me.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Why not just let people do what they wish and discuss a game without lamenting about the same old DRM issues. If you feel you must discuss it start up a specific thread. This discussion is already old and very boring. People want to discuss Panzer Battles not your likes and dislikes about DRM.

The DRM is a part of Panzer Battles, so he's discussing Panzer Battles.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 59
RE: John Tiller's "PANZER BATTLES" - 2/10/2014 6:19:22 PM   
KEYSTONE07950

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 12/17/2006
Status: offline 		Does the scale of Panzer Battles make it a direct competitor for Flashpoint Campaigns?

< Message edited by KEYSTONE07950 -- 2/10/2014 7:30:11 PM >

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 60
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