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RE: Who started World War I?

 
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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 8:42:41 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

I think the more reasonable and rational question is who set the seed that planted WW2.
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Given its the 100th anniversary of start of the Great War, I thought it would be interesting to hear peoples views on this.

There has been a lot of books and programs over the recent past that have challenged the "Germany did it" version of events. Have people been swayed by these arguments? Have they always held a different view anyway? or have they read the new ideas and rejected them?

Its a fascinating subject - anyone interested in such a debate?


warspite1

The question is Who Started World War I?

If that question is unreasonable and irrational then please feel free to start your own thread on the subject of your choice.


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 8:48:01 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sure sure remind me again who declared war on whom?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Germany, France and Russia all wanted war in 1914, but the Germans were definitely the aggressive power. Austria-Hungary was merely a tool for Germany.


warspite1

Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia 28th July
Germany declared war on Russia 1st August
Germany declared war on France 3rd August
Germany declared war on Belgium 4th August

Can you clarify what point are you making please or was this a genuine question?


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 8:48:50 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

It is my belief that Alchenar said it best. There could have been a "containable" war in the Balkans and Eastern Europe. We shall never know because
the German response to all the strutting and posturing was to unleash an aggressive war in the West against France and Belgium since that was their war plan,
seen to be immutable. That precipitated the involvement of Britain, not allowing that empire to hedge their bets and play for advantage while others fought.
("Perfidious Albion" and all a'that.) Contributing factors were many and varied. Launching the Schleiffen Plan made continental war inevitable and the involvement
of the British Empire would make it a world war. So the German General Staff with approval of the Kaiser elevated a nasty mess to a world changing catastrophe.
The Second World War was probably just act two of the same paroxysm and the Cold War the denouement. There has been a brief intermission and now the boys are
just getting suited up for the next one. Haven't picked sides yet but Bush II would have made a great Kaiser Bill. Too bad he's not playing anymore.
warspite1

danlongman did you need to bring Bush into it?


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 9:04:40 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The " blank check " that was given Austria was not thought to be to the Germans an excuse for war or an invasion. They were taken aback at the Austrian demands. At least some in the government.

The one person who really started the war was Wilhelm II.By letting the three power accord between Russia,Austria and Germany expire.By destroying all of Bismark's hard work, the war is really in his lap.

Once Russia was left out they had to find an ally somewhere and it sure wasn't going to be England.
warspite1

I would be interested in a source on that please. My understanding of the blank cheque was something along the lines of "if you want to go sort out Serbia, we will support you". If that was not the case, then what did the "blank cheque" actually give Austria? Why do historians refer to it as a blank cheque?

Edit: Amended for clarity

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/9/2014 10:21:24 AM >


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 9:09:47 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

The one person who really started the war was Wilhelm II.By letting the three power accord between Russia,Austria and Germany expire.By destroying all of Bismark's hard work, the war is really in his lap.

So are you saying that by not allying he started the war?
warspite1

sulla05 is referring to Wilhelm's colossal blundering as a diplomat! By essentially rubbing everyone up the wrong way, Germany went from a position of strength and friendship under Bismarck, to one where Germany was surrounded by Britain, France and Russia just a few years later. Now, surrounded and friendless (apart from the hapless Austro-Hungarians) what does he do? Add to this that Wilhelm had lost a lot of authority after his nervous breakdown of 1908(?) and that von Moltke was itching to put Schlieffen into practice and....


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 9:25:25 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The " blank check " that was given Austria was not thought to be to the Germans an excuse for war or an invasion. They were taken aback at the Austrian demands. At least some in the government.

The one person who really started the war was Wilhelm II.By letting the three power accord between Russia,Austria and Germany expire.By destroying all of Bismark's hard work, the war is really in his lap.

Once Russia was left out they had to find an ally somewhere and it sure wasn't going to be England.
warspite1

I would be interested in a source on that please. My understanding of the blank cheque was something along the lines of "if you want to go sort out Serbia, we will support you". If that was not the case, then what did the "blank cheque" actually give Austria? Why do historians refer to it as a blank cheque?

Edit: Amended for clarity


The bolded part is pretty much it. More or less whatever they wanted to deal with Serbia.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 9:28:33 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The " blank check " that was given Austria was not thought to be to the Germans an excuse for war or an invasion. They were taken aback at the Austrian demands. At least some in the government.

The one person who really started the war was Wilhelm II.By letting the three power accord between Russia,Austria and Germany expire.By destroying all of Bismark's hard work, the war is really in his lap.

Once Russia was left out they had to find an ally somewhere and it sure wasn't going to be England.
warspite1

I would be interested in a source on that please. My understanding of the blank cheque was something along the lines of "if you want to go sort out Serbia, we will support you". If that was not the case, then what did the "blank cheque" actually give Austria? Why do historians refer to it as a blank cheque?

Edit: Amended for clarity


The bolded part is pretty much it. More or less whatever they wanted to deal with Serbia.
warspite1

Yes that was my take on it. I will be interested to hear further on this - that there may be another interpretation of what Germany was telling Austria.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 9:58:27 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The " blank check " that was given Austria was not thought to be to the Germans an excuse for war or an invasion. They were taken aback at the Austrian demands. At least some in the government.

The one person who really started the war was Wilhelm II.By letting the three power accord between Russia,Austria and Germany expire.By destroying all of Bismark's hard work, the war is really in his lap.

Once Russia was left out they had to find an ally somewhere and it sure wasn't going to be England.
warspite1

I would be interested in a source on that please. My understanding of the blank cheque was something along the lines of "if you want to go sort out Serbia, we will support you". If that was not the case, then what did the "blank cheque" actually give Austria? Why do historians refer to it as a blank cheque?

Edit: Amended for clarity


The bolded part is pretty much it. More or less whatever they wanted to deal with Serbia.
warspite1

Yes that was my take on it. I will be interested to hear further on this - that there may be another interpretation of what Germany was telling Austria.


Maybe, but that's the only one I've ever read. Even if Russia intervened, as they were bound to, he would support A-H.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 2/9/2014 11:03:03 AM >


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 10:45:20 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

The one person who really started the war was Wilhelm II.By letting the three power accord between Russia,Austria and Germany expire.By destroying all of Bismark's hard work, the war is really in his lap.

So are you saying that by not allying he started the war?
warspite1

sulla05 is referring to Wilhelm's colossal blundering as a diplomat! By essentially rubbing everyone up the wrong way, Germany went from a position of strength and friendship under Bismarck, to one where Germany was surrounded by Britain, France and Russia just a few years later. Now, surrounded and friendless (apart from the hapless Austro-Hungarians) what does he do? Add to this that Wilhelm had lost a lot of authority after his nervous breakdown of 1908(?) and that von Moltke was itching to put Schlieffen into practice and....


Blundering as a diplomat seems to have been a common trait in Europe at that time. Wilhelm II suffers because he is compared to Bismarck who was a master in that field. But that is not my objection.

Blaming Wilhelm II for WWI because he was a bad diplomat is almost like blaming Neville Chamberlain for WWII. It is just plain wrong in my humble opinion.

Note that I do not mind that you lay blame on Wilhelm II for other reasons!

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 12:31:18 PM   
sullafelix

 

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I will look up the sources on the " blank check ".

Why I said the Kaiser is this.If the three autocratic countries were aligned together Serbia would no have found leverage to use with Russia.

Sure the Russians wouldn't have liked it but it is possible they would have come to some accord about Serbia.

The alliance between Russia and France would never have happened. So even if the autocrats did break their alliance over it there would have been no combined action between France and Russia.

With Russia as an ally there would have been no need for the Schlieffen plan to be the only plan for Germany to consider.

So the attack on France would not have been, predestined if you will, because of Germany having enemies on both sides.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 12:53:05 PM   
sullafelix

 

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I didn't want to copy and paste everything.

" On the 28th, after reading the Serbian reply, Wilhelm first commented: “But that eliminates any reason for war”,[143] or "every cause for war falls to the ground”.[151] Wilhelm noted that Serbia had made “a capitulation of the most humiliating kind",[151] that “The few reservations which Serbia has made with respect to certain points can in my opinion surely be cleared up by negotiation,” and acting independently of Grey, made a similar “Stop in Belgrade” offer.[153] Wilhelm stated that because “The Serbs are Orientals, therefore liars, tricksters, and masters of evasion”, a temporary Austrian occupation of Belgrade was required until Serbia kept its word.[151]

Wilhelm’s sudden change of mind about war enraged Bethmann Hollweg, the military and the diplomatic service who, acting in accord, proceeded to sabotage Wilhelm’s offer.[154] A German general wrote: “unfortunately...peaceful news. The Kaiser wants peace...He even wants to influence Austria and to stop continuing further.”[155] Bethmann Hollweg sabotaged Wilhelm’s proposal by informing Prince Tschirschky: “You must most carefully avoid giving any impression that we want to hold Austria back We are concerned only to find a modus to enable the realisation of Austria-Hungary’s aim without at the same time unleashing a world war, and should this after all prove unavoidable, to improve as far as possible the conditions under which it is to be waged.”[154] In passing on Wilhelm’s message, Bethmann Hollweg excluded the parts wherein the Emperor told the Austrians not to go to war.[152] Jagow told his diplomats to disregard Wilhelm’s peace offer, and continue to press for war.[152] General Falkenhayn told Wilhelm that he “no longer had control of the affair in his own hands”.[152] Falkenhayn went on to imply that the military would stage a coup d’etat, and depose Wilhelm in favour of the hawkish Crown Prince Wilhelm if he continued to work for peace.[152]

Bethmann Hollweg’s two favourable conditions for war that he mentioned in his telegram to Vienna were that Russia be made to appear the aggressor forcing a reluctant Germany into war, and that Britain be kept neutral.[154] The necessity of making Russia appear the aggressor was the greater concern to Bethmann-Hollweg because the German Social Democratic Party had denounced Austria for declaring war on Serbia and ordered street demonstrations to protest Germany’s actions in supporting Austria.[156] However, Bethmann Hollweg put great faith in the private promises he received from SPD leaders that they would support the government if Germany was faced with a Russian attack.[156]"

Some in the German government were fine with a limited war between Austria and Serbia, but that it had to be quick. Once all the delays set in and it appeared that it was now going to be a general European war they tried to put the brakes on.

Sure there were parts of the German government who saw it as a God send, for a general war.

The thing you have to remember is that very few of the diplomats etc. had any idea that a general conflict would change Europe forever. The different nations involved had existed for hundreds of years in some form and wars had always ended with a compromise peace and some territorial rearrangements.Not a total destruction and rewriting of the European map.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 1:24:06 PM   
warspite1


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The Blank Cheque, in which Germany pledged unconditional support for whatever course of action Austria-Hungary chose to take, was given in early July.

I think what you are describing is the occasion, much later, where the Kaiser changed his mind (as was his usual modus operandi) and this cheesed off the military and Bethmann Hollweg. The Kaiser's message to AH was not delivered in full. Without the Blank Cheque, I doubt the list of demands to Serbia would have been sent in the first place.

Edit: Addition at the end of last sentence for clarity

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/9/2014 2:30:50 PM >


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 3:00:53 PM   
sullafelix

 

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I concede.

But it does seem a bit confusing that they gave Austria a blank check and then were surprised when Austria used it.

I would have to go back to my Tuchman and find all the intricate maneuvers that took place during the blank check phase. If my memory serves there was some confusion between Vienna and Berlin about what the blank check actually entitled.

Bethman-Holwig and the army certainly meant to get a European war going. I believe some if not most thought that they were okaying a quick war between Austria and Serbia not a European conflict.

I am talking about the entire German government, including the Reichstag, not just the major players.

Even Lord Grey conceded that Austria was entitled to everyone but one of the demands and a quick assault to take Belgrade

< Message edited by sulla05 -- 2/9/2014 4:03:14 PM >


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 3:37:35 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
Blaming Wilhelm II for WWI because he was a bad diplomat is almost like blaming Neville Chamberlain for WWII. It is just plain wrong in my humble opinion.


I respectfully disagree. A single diplomat's ineptitude can have catastrophic consequences on the peace process.

In your example of WWII, I think another bad diplomat that was arguably very responsible for the instigation of the inflagration was Hitler. He fancied himself a diplomat when it suited him.

Much like the Kaiser's bombastic, aggressive and sabre-rattling persona. When mixed with the nonsensical entangling alliances, nationalistic tendencies of the people, greed and perhaps a bit of cultural superiority complex, you have a tinderbox of the first order.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 4:11:18 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Given its the 100th anniversary of start of the Great War, I thought it would be interesting to hear peoples views on this.

There has been a lot of books and programs over the recent past that have challenged the "Germany did it" version of events. Have people been swayed by these arguments? Have they always held a different view anyway? or have they read the new ideas and rejected them?

Its a fascinating subject - anyone interested in such a debate?


I think is was Slaakkman trying to make a new forum section....



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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 4:20:45 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Given its the 100th anniversary of start of the Great War, I thought it would be interesting to hear peoples views on this.

There has been a lot of books and programs over the recent past that have challenged the "Germany did it" version of events. Have people been swayed by these arguments? Have they always held a different view anyway? or have they read the new ideas and rejected them?

Its a fascinating subject - anyone interested in such a debate?


I think is was Slaakkman trying to make a new forum section....


warspite1

Eh?

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 5:34:56 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:


I think is was Slaakkman trying to make a new forum section....

(Actually I was most interested to discuss the Prophecies as opposed to politics).

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 5:47:30 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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[
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


I think is was Slaakkman trying to make a new forum section....


warspite1

Eh?


As I see it, you haven't done anything wrong starting this thread, Warspite There is indeed a WW1 sub-forum (Guns of August game), which nobody visits. A thread there would be 100% pointless. This has to be the right place. I would be surprised if Matrix did not allow historical discussions. Let's hope the Obamas, Putins, Bushes stay away from these threads.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 5:57:14 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

[
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


I think is was Slaakkman trying to make a new forum section....


warspite1

Eh?


As I see it, you haven't done anything wrong starting this thread, Warspite There is indeed a WW1 sub-forum (Guns of August game), which nobody visits. A thread there would be 100% pointless. This has to be the right place. I would be surprised if Matrix did not allow historical discussions. Let's hope the Obamas, Putins, Bushes stay away from these threads.
Warspite1

Thanks TD, I assumed he was trying to say something to that effect. A bit pathetic really - quite why he would think a discussion on a military history topic, particularly of real relevance, would be wrong is quite beyond me.....


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 6:22:23 PM   
british exil


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If I am not mistaken, I think none of the major nations/empires really wanted a war. They were all rattling their sabres, thinking that all the treaty pacts, "I support you" pacts etc would surfice. The problem was every nation all took the the next step and threatened each other with support for their allies if war broke out. No one was able to back out without losing face. Something that was not possible considering the expansion politics in Africa and Asia. They had to show some kind of strength.

Also most thought it would be a summer war, go out fight one or two battles and then declare a winner. No one thought that it would last till winter 1914. More or like the the German/French war of 1870/71. Win a few battles, threaten the looser with more defeats unless they give terrioty as a recognition of defeat.


They just needed an excuse. The assasination of the Archduke Ferdinand was something the Austro- Hungary and Germans wanted to have an excuse to start war with Serbia. The Russians had a pact of support for their Serb "brothers". So two major powers had problems with each other.

Britain saw a major rival in the navy that Germany was building, would the German navy threaten the British trade routes? The british needed to stop the German expansion. A little skirmish at sea would decide who ruled the waves, Britain believing herself the victor before anything had happened.

France of course wanted her territories back after the defeat of 1870/71 so a war against her direct rival was something to be disired.

All in all this would be decided in a few quick battles, over a period of a few months. A longer campaign wasn't really possible due to the fact that the size os the armies were not that large. Only Germany and France really fielding a large number of troops.


At the end of the day, the politicians weren't able to stop the war. The Monarchs were all related and they didn't really want a family feud. England changing their name too appear more British than their German title sounded.


My two cents worth. I hope I make some sense.

Mat

< Message edited by british exil -- 2/9/2014 9:36:18 PM >


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 7:03:28 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

I concede.

But it does seem a bit confusing that they gave Austria a blank check and then were surprised when Austria used it.

I would have to go back to my Tuchman and find all the intricate maneuvers that took place during the blank check phase. If my memory serves there was some confusion between Vienna and Berlin about what the blank check actually entitled.

Bethman-Holwig and the army certainly meant to get a European war going. I believe some if not most thought that they were okaying a quick war between Austria and Serbia not a European conflict.

I am talking about the entire German government, including the Reichstag, not just the major players.

Even Lord Grey conceded that Austria was entitled to everyone but one of the demands and a quick assault to take Belgrade
warspite1

Yes and this is one of the reasons for my comment in post 4. What seems clear from all the evidence is that countries were not necessarily united in their hopes and plans - none more so than the Germans, the Kaiser blew hot and cold on the subject, von Moltke seemed to be gagging for a fight, while Bethmann Hollweg was up for it under certain conditions. Just more complicating factors to throw into the mix.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/9/2014 8:15:47 PM >


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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 8:51:16 PM   
rodney727


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Yes it was a question! So thank you I wasn't sure. While Germany was the aggressor I think it was a mix of France, England and Russia along with Germany and Austria-Hungry who help push Europe to war. You have not stated what/how you feel on this subject as it would be interesting to know what you think.
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sure sure remind me again who declared war on whom?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Germany, France and Russia all wanted war in 1914, but the Germans were definitely the aggressive power. Austria-Hungary was merely a tool for Germany.


warspite1

Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia 28th July
Germany declared war on Russia 1st August
Germany declared war on France 3rd August
Germany declared war on Belgium 4th August

Can you clarify what point are you making please or was this a genuine question?




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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/9/2014 8:57:04 PM   
sullafelix

 

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That is what I was trying to poorly convey in my posts.

I have seen and heard the " blank check" " as a totally done deal with all the players in Germany and AH all on the same page.

As you said it was much more muddled than that.

It surprises me, although I do not know why, that two different telegrams ( 1870,1914 )were played with by German chancellors to get the results they wanted.

One to cause a war and one to make sure a war happened.

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RE: Who started World War I? - 2/10/2014 2:37:02 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Yes it was a question! So thank you I wasn't sure. While Germany was the aggressor I think it was a mix of France, England and Russia along with Germany and Austria-Hungry who help push Europe to war. You have not stated what/how you feel on this subject as it would be interesting to know what you think.
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sure sure remind me again who declared war on whom?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Germany, France and Russia all wanted war in 1914, but the Germans were definitely the aggressive power. Austria-Hungary was merely a tool for Germany.


warspite1

Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia 28th July
Germany declared war on Russia 1st August
Germany declared war on France 3rd August
Germany declared war on Belgium 4th August

Can you clarify what point are you making please or was this a genuine question?



Warspite1

Yes I did - please see post 4.


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to rodney727)
Post #: 84
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/10/2014 2:34:22 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline
Is this game out? Just wondering, I thought it was still on pre-order. Slaakman do you know?
quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

ON THAT NOTE SILLY WARSPITE2-NEWBLETTE I CHALLENGE U TO "FATAL ALLIANCES"!!!
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5466/fatal-alliances




_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

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(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 85
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/10/2014 3:12:21 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline
I'm not much of an expert in WWI so I won't claim this strongly as it's only based upon my own reading of the situation. However, I've always viewed the direct answer to that question as "Serbian Millitary" as I believe evidence is unrefuted that it supported the Black Hand in it's terrorist campaign.

Simply put, you can't have your own millitary go around supporting and participating in terrorist campaigns that assasinate foreign Principates without expecting an armed response from the government of the party you assasinated.

Whether Austria-Hungaries demands in response were reasonable can be debated (frankly given the history there, I'm not so convinced they were all that unreasonable) but the crux of the matter is that if your millitary is responsible for offing somebody elses Prince...you should reasonably expect a fight, and don't really have much cause to complain when you get one. YMMV.


< Message edited by GrumpyMel -- 2/10/2014 4:13:08 PM >

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 86
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/10/2014 3:32:20 PM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Given its the 100th anniversary of start of the Great War, I thought it would be interesting to hear peoples views on this.
There has been a lot of books and programs over the recent past that have challenged the "Germany did it" version of events. Have people been swayed by these arguments? Have they always held a different view anyway? or have they read the new ideas and rejected them?
Its a fascinating subject - anyone interested in such a debate?

Warspite1, thanks for asking. I don't write to offend and hope my points of view come across with little misunderstanding.

Went back in time this weekend.

What i found to answer your question warspite1, is that world war one began long before Jul/Aug 1914. I do lay the blame on Germany and AH. They had to work together for a World War to begin.

Bismarck before he died predicted a world war would begin in the east.

1st lord of the Admiralty Lord Fisher predicted war would begin in 1914 on a weekend bank holiday in Oct. His prediction was based on the Kiel Canal being being deep enough to allow German Dreadnoughts into the North Sea.

When the crisis of assassination happened. The English Fleet was visiting Germany and Russia with some of its most powerful ships. They left Best Friends Forever.

Germany and AH crafted a lead up to war with Serbia that points at them being the aggressors. The fact that Italy had an alliance of mutual defense is a fact to use against Germany and AH.

The greatest fact pointing to Germany and AH as major partners in starting WW1 was the terms AH sent to Serbia to avoid war. 9 out of 10 demands were conceded. Only one was rejected and was asked if it could be negotiated. The shelling of Belgrade soon followed.

So here we have Serbia and AH at war.
Russia being drawn into it. Germany mobilizing.

Funny thing is the inflexible German war-plans that helped create the World war.
There was a brief moment when the Kaiser, Warlord of Germany, stopped the army from invading Luxembourg. The Kaiser wanted word from his cousin King George V. He told Molke he could redeploy the army and face Russia. Moltke broke-down had a hissy fit and said the plans were already made and could not be changed. What a baby.

England's role in creating the First World War was her drifting away from Germany and aligning with France and Russia. The death of Queen Victoria, in 1901, saw the beginning of this drift. Is there a connection? You decide.

_____________________________


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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 87
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/10/2014 7:13:38 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Is this game out? Just wondering, I thought it was still on pre-order. Slaakman do you know?
quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

ON THAT NOTE SILLY WARSPITE2-NEWBLETTE I CHALLENGE U TO "FATAL ALLIANCES"!!!
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5466/fatal-alliances




It is the 3rd version of Fatal Alliances that is pre-order. First version is 20+ years old.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 88
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/10/2014 7:25:37 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Is this game out? Just wondering, I thought it was still on pre-order. Slaakman do you know?
quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

ON THAT NOTE SILLY WARSPITE2-NEWBLETTE I CHALLENGE U TO "FATAL ALLIANCES"!!!
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5466/fatal-alliances




It is the 3rd version of Fatal Alliances that is pre-order. First version is 20+ years old.
warspite1

Hands up if you have the original version!


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 89
RE: Who started World War I? - 2/10/2014 7:40:56 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Is this game out? Just wondering, I thought it was still on pre-order. Slaakman do you know?
quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

ON THAT NOTE SILLY WARSPITE2-NEWBLETTE I CHALLENGE U TO "FATAL ALLIANCES"!!!
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5466/fatal-alliances




It is the 3rd version of Fatal Alliances that is pre-order. First version is 20+ years old.
warspite1

Hands up if you have the original version!


*Holds hands up*

Am I being robbed now?

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 90
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