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RE: How to Choose Leaders

 
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RE: How to Choose Leaders - 5/15/2011 9:17:10 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		Wow, this is something I've wanted more info on for some time. Very informative and I see I have some checking to do.

I have one question. In ground combat what exactly is determining a (+) or (-) leadership modifier for each force. Is it the skill or leadership rating of the commander that determines this. Should I be picking a leader that has a higher land skill rating than their leadership rating for troops in combat? Just what factors actually determine the (+) or (-) modifier? I tend to pick high land skill, yet in a lot of combat my forces suffer a (-) leadership modifier...so I'm questioning whether I should be picking the higher leadership rating?

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 31
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 10/27/2011 6:26:53 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		BUMP!

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Post #: 32
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 10/27/2011 8:03:01 AM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		Good to know its LEADERSHIP that effects pilot training, not INSPIRATION which I've been using... Time to spend another 100 PPs reassigning air unit leaders.

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Post #: 33
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 4/22/2013 2:10:20 PM   
czert2

 

Posts: 508
Joined: 2/10/2013
Status: offline 		Well, is anyone willing to update it to AE based on experinces/patches ? Or it didnt changed at all from original Witp ?

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Post #: 34
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/1/2014 1:09:43 PM   
guytipton41


Posts: 351
Joined: 2/26/2011
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Bump a bumpy bump!

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Post #: 35
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/1/2014 9:40:21 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

No offense, but 5 replications seems a bit low to really draw conclusions from. Not that this result would really surprise me, I'm guessing whether or not the DD spot the sub is of a much greater importance.


You are both correct and incorrect. I won't go into the math, as it can be fairly tedious for all but mathematicians, engineers, and statisticians. Five replications is enough to establish statistical significance ...


AKA a trend?

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Post #: 36
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/2/2014 10:27:33 AM   
ndworl

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 8/20/2013
From: Brisbane, Australia
Status: offline 		Thanks very much for the info. I'm just wondering the empirical basis of this list. I can't understand why the system provides two streams for decision, if they are not required. The first is the "leadership - inspiration" one. The second is the "skill - aggression" one. I don't understand why the designers set this up if the second is irrelevant. The list here says to ignore the paradigm established by the designers, but go with a "skill - inspiration" balance instead. Now this makes intuitive sense, but begs the question, on what basis are the recommendations made?

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 37
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/2/2014 2:13:48 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Think of this thread, and more so the discussion following the first post, as a baseline for your tests. But make sure you remain aware of two things:

1) The list at the beginning is an analysis of WitP, not WitP AE data.

2) The list is incomplete (in a skill - consequence relational sense), and contains errors.

The ensuing discussion started by the first post (in here and in other threads) was more important than the fist post. A significant conclusion is, that considering all variables influencing results, 5 iterations is not enough repetition for establishing statistical significance as long as certain (variable) attributes about the environment remain unknown.

wwengr´s, PaxMondo´s, and John´s post are the most important in here. Use as reference.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 2/2/2014 3:16:19 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/11/2014 7:52:38 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		I've been using this list as a guide for a long time and very useful it has been.  I do have one query regarding the leadership rating being used as the main attribute for most ships.   Naval should be higher priority than leadership.  What are others thoughts on this?

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Post #: 39
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/11/2014 11:24:06 AM   
guytipton41


Posts: 351
Joined: 2/26/2011
From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

I've been using this list as a guide for a long time and very useful it has been.  I do have one query regarding the leadership rating being used as the main attribute for most ships.   Naval should be higher priority than leadership.  What are others thoughts on this?



Hi Chris

I have lots of opinions but no statistical data to back them. In a multi-variate analysis sense I would like to know the principle component and the amount of variance that could be assigned to that component.

Cheers
Guy

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 40
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/11/2014 8:11:33 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: guytipton41


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

I've been using this list as a guide for a long time and very useful it has been.  I do have one query regarding the leadership rating being used as the main attribute for most ships.   Naval should be higher priority than leadership.  What are others thoughts on this?



Hi Chris

I have lots of opinions but no statistical data to back them. In a multi-variate analysis sense I would like to know the principle component and the amount of variance that could be assigned to that component.

Cheers
Guy



I have no data.

(in reply to guytipton41)
Post #: 41
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/11/2014 9:19:21 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ndworl

Thanks very much for the info. I'm just wondering the empirical basis of this list. I can't understand why the system provides two streams for decision, if they are not required. The first is the "leadership - inspiration" one. The second is the "skill - aggression" one. I don't understand why the designers set this up if the second is irrelevant. The list here says to ignore the paradigm established by the designers, but go with a "skill - inspiration" balance instead. Now this makes intuitive sense, but begs the question, on what basis are the recommendations made?


So this is how I look at it (at least for ground units). The "leadership - inspiration", that's the RAH,RAH stuff that goes on behind the lines. You know Patton's speach at the beginning of the movie. So when a unit is licking its wounds or training behind the lines I give 'em a leader with this. The "skill - aggression" is the blood and guts stuff when in combat and I want those when I'm fighting. Of course this is PP dependant and can be difficult to do especially early on when PP (insert pun here) demand is high.

(in reply to ndworl)
Post #: 42
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/11/2014 9:53:33 PM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline 		Chris H:
From what I noticed, Leadership will decide to act/react. Agression just affect if it's a good idea to act or not, aborting or keeping it depending of ennemy situation.

Naval will make better decision in fight, try to break off if it's carrier against BB or keep range if he got more BB than opponent etc... Air will launch much raid if close of target, raid won't be separated too (range affect this too).

In my opinion, naval skill is more important even if both are primary because if you ships are intercept a good leader (in naval skill) will still fight well. I mean, leadership is how your unit act/move on map(strategic), nav skill decide the combat report(tactic).

A good leadership will intercept every task force coming close of a surface taskforce but if nav skill is low, your task force will get severe loss. I'm not sure of this thought but it's how I see it.

I made the mistake 2 times of having a good leadership and inspiration but not good nav skill. My AMC raiders intercept taskforce but hit only a few ships giving poor results. Although it's perhaps bad luck but I don't expect convoy to have good leader :/ too.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 43
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/11/2014 11:09:23 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Naval skill is how the ship is handled. It helps escorts find subs, it helps ships avoid hits, it affects most of the combat related things that happen, increasing a chance to cross the T or attain surprise.

Leadership adds experience to the crew with various actions. The higher the leadership, the more quickly the crew gets better experience. Think of it like drilling more effectively.

Aggression will decide how long the ship stays in the combat and how it reacts to other ships/TFs, but that is mostly a TF leader skill.

Air helps air ops coordinate and fight effectively, or search, or recon.

Admin helps the process of loading/unloading ships more quickly.

Inspiration does nothing for ships or TFs. (It helps raise morale and AV adjustment with land units and air groups, and helps get more planes in the air).

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/12/2014 12:10:33 AM >

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Post #: 44
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 11:06:30 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		So, an ASW TF should have skippers with high naval skill (aggression secondary) and a TF leader with high aggression (naval skill secondary)?

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Post #: 45
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 4:30:57 PM   
jay102

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Naval skill is how the ship is handled. It helps escorts find subs, it helps ships avoid hits, it affects most of the combat related things that happen, increasing a chance to cross the T or attain surprise.

Leadership adds experience to the crew with various actions. The higher the leadership, the more quickly the crew gets better experience. Think of it like drilling more effectively.

Aggression will decide how long the ship stays in the combat and how it reacts to other ships/TFs, but that is mostly a TF leader skill.

Air helps air ops coordinate and fight effectively, or search, or recon.

Admin helps the process of loading/unloading ships more quickly.

Inspiration does nothing for ships or TFs. (It helps raise morale and AV adjustment with land units and air groups, and helps get more planes in the air).


For carrier captains, the primary/secondary skill is Naval/Leadership? Naval helps it evade battle in case of surface engagement and Leadership for quicker experience gain. As far as carrier TF, Only the TF leader needs a good air skill?

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 46
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 4:36:08 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Naval skill is how the ship is handled. It helps escorts find subs, it helps ships avoid hits, it affects most of the combat related things that happen, increasing a chance to cross the T or attain surprise.

Leadership adds experience to the crew with various actions. The higher the leadership, the more quickly the crew gets better experience. Think of it like drilling more effectively.

Aggression will decide how long the ship stays in the combat and how it reacts to other ships/TFs, but that is mostly a TF leader skill.

Air helps air ops coordinate and fight effectively, or search, or recon.

Admin helps the process of loading/unloading ships more quickly.

Inspiration does nothing for ships or TFs. (It helps raise morale and AV adjustment with land units and air groups, and helps get more planes in the air).


For carrier captains, the primary/secondary skill is Naval/Leadership? Naval helps it evade battle in case of surface engagement and Leadership for quicker experience gain. As far as carrier TF, Only the TF leader needs a good air skill?


for the tf commander, you would want high inspiration as more planes would fly.


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Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to jay102)
Post #: 47
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 5:49:11 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Naval skill is how the ship is handled. It helps escorts find subs, it helps ships avoid hits, it affects most of the combat related things that happen, increasing a chance to cross the T or attain surprise.

Leadership adds experience to the crew with various actions. The higher the leadership, the more quickly the crew gets better experience. Think of it like drilling more effectively.

Aggression will decide how long the ship stays in the combat and how it reacts to other ships/TFs, but that is mostly a TF leader skill.

Air helps air ops coordinate and fight effectively, or search, or recon.

Admin helps the process of loading/unloading ships more quickly.

Inspiration does nothing for ships or TFs. (It helps raise morale and AV adjustment with land units and air groups, and helps get more planes in the air).


For carrier captains, the primary/secondary skill is Naval/Leadership? Naval helps it evade battle in case of surface engagement and Leadership for quicker experience gain. As far as carrier TF, Only the TF leader needs a good air skill?


Aye.

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Post #: 48
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 5:49:50 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

So, an ASW TF should have skippers with high naval skill (aggression secondary) and a TF leader with high aggression (naval skill secondary)?


Sounds right.

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Post #: 49
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 6:27:06 PM   
jay102

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline 		but if air skill is irrelevant for carrier captains, why the evaluation report in leader choosing panel grants leaders with good air skill a comment like "best qualified to command a carrier"?

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Post #: 50
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 7:02:36 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

but if air skill is irrelevant for carrier captains, why the evaluation report in leader choosing panel grants leaders with good air skill a comment like "best qualified to command a carrier"?


If you can, get a captain with high air skill in case you operate without a TF leader at some point, or the ships get split due to damage, etc.

Naval will keep them away from subs, do better to avoid air strikes and surface vessels aiming for them. It'll also keep them from hitting the DDs while maneuvering, which is as damaging as a bomb.

You almost always pay as much as it takes to get a good TF commander for a CV TF. There are quite a few good ones for both sides with high air skill (1) high inspiration (2) and high naval (3).

Aggression is only desirable if you KNOW you will have an advantage, and often even not at that point. It means reactions, and if there are multiple CV TFs and you want to keep them together, reactions are BAD. If you're running one and hunting something, then go for Halsey.


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Post #: 51
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 7:04:41 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

So, an ASW TF should have skippers with high naval skill (aggression secondary) and a TF leader with high aggression (naval skill secondary)?


I try to pick a captain of the lead ship who has both high naval and high aggression. If that isn't possible, then yes.

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Post #: 52
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 7:34:15 PM   
jay102

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: jay102

but if air skill is irrelevant for carrier captains, why the evaluation report in leader choosing panel grants leaders with good air skill a comment like "best qualified to command a carrier"?


If you can, get a captain with high air skill in case you operate without a TF leader at some point, or the ships get split due to damage, etc.

Naval will keep them away from subs, do better to avoid air strikes and surface vessels aiming for them. It'll also keep them from hitting the DDs while maneuvering, which is as damaging as a bomb.

You almost always pay as much as it takes to get a good TF commander for a CV TF. There are quite a few good ones for both sides with high air skill (1) high inspiration (2) and high naval (3).

Aggression is only desirable if you KNOW you will have an advantage, and often even not at that point. It means reactions, and if there are multiple CV TFs and you want to keep them together, reactions are BAD. If you're running one and hunting something, then go for Halsey.



Thanks for the detail explanation.

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Post #: 53
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 7:58:11 PM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Are there enough PP AND enough of a difference in performance in selecting individual ship captains?

I don't mind the time it takes to do this, but is it worth all of this? I just worry about TF commanders, and generally let the computer select, especially if I know the ship captain will suffice.

I really manage just air group leaders, especially on ones that will be on map the entire time and not withdrawal. If they're not a pilot, you will never have them killed.

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Post #: 54
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 8:06:19 PM   
jay102

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline 		Major ships(CV,BB,or including CA) surely worth the PPs to get rid of abysmal leaders. I don't want ships sent for important battles are commanded by amateurs.

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Post #: 55
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 8:06:29 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
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From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510
Are there enough PP AND enough of a difference in performance in selecting individual ship captains?


No, there is never enough PP, and Yes, there is definitely enough of a difference in selecting individual ship captains.

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Post #: 56
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 8:13:51 PM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Naval skill is how the ship is handled. It helps escorts find subs, it helps ships avoid hits, it affects most of the combat related things that happen, increasing a chance to cross the T or attain surprise.

Leadership adds experience to the crew with various actions. The higher the leadership, the more quickly the crew gets better experience. Think of it like drilling more effectively.

Aggression will decide how long the ship stays in the combat and how it reacts to other ships/TFs, but that is mostly a TF leader skill.

Air helps air ops coordinate and fight effectively, or search, or recon.

Admin helps the process of loading/unloading ships more quickly.

Inspiration does nothing for ships or TFs. (It helps raise morale and AV adjustment with land units and air groups, and helps get more planes in the air).


I wasn't that far from the truth for a newbie

Does Admin have any impact for Air group ? I noticed a difference for LCU but nothing for air group, still 7 day when replacing 12 planes.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 57
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 2/12/2014 9:29:15 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510
Are there enough PP AND enough of a difference in performance in selecting individual ship captains?


No, there is never enough PP, and Yes, there is definitely enough of a difference in selecting individual ship captains.


+1

It always makes a difference. I even choose TF commanders for my big tanker TFs. For the good large tankers I'll choose a decent naval skill captain as well for Japan, if you lose one it can be huge. So of the price of a regiment I've given all of my most important assets in the merchant fleet a better chance to survive the war and move my fuel and oil.

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Post #: 58
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 3/7/2014 4:34:29 PM   
gRaider2001

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/31/2012
Status: offline 		@wwengr....Thank you very much for taking the time to make this guide on choosing leaders. It was very helpful.

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Post #: 59
RE: How to Choose Leaders - 3/7/2014 5:36:10 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		If I am reading this correctly, then the capabilities of Yamamoto or Nimitz are wasted as they are in naval HQs?

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 3/7/2014 6:36:48 PM >

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Post #: 60
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