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JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/19/2014 10:42:35 PM

pws1225

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From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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Hi guys - a little while ago I volunteered to take a look at the AC/Engine R&D and production settings of a couple of new JFBs. Make no mistake, I'm no expert but I do know how to not crash the economy in the first month or so, so I though I would offer my insights to help new guys from repeating my mistakes. One piece of advice I offered was to monitor two metrics each turn to determine if factory expansions were overcooking the economy. Those metrics are HI gains each turn and the level of supply at Tokyo. I recommended that HI should grow by about 4,000/turn and Tokyo supply should remain within the 500,000-750,000 range. If supply falls below this range, then it's an indication that factory expansion is too aggressive and some factories should have their repair toggle turned off. Although this simple approach has worked for me, my question here is whether JFBs more experienced than me think using this simple guide is unwise. Certainly Tracker offers a viable alternative, but since I'm a lazy old fart, I prefer to fly the Japanese side "commando style" without the aid of Tracker. If some of you experienced JFBs think my advice was erroneous, please do speak up. I'd hate to think I've steered folks down the wrong road.

Regards, Paul

Post #: 1

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/19/2014 11:01:52 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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4,000 HI per turn is rather high for early war. There's just no way - not until you have captured all the HI centers and have turned off some shipyards should this be up there.

I keep more supply than that in Tokyo. I get nervous when it's under 900,000 and I prefer it to be above 1M. However, if I really dig into things and KNOW that I'm not going to break something, I have on occasion allowed it to drop lower.

(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 2

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/19/2014 11:12:20 PM

pws1225

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From: Tate's Hell, Florida
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Hi Lokasenna - In general, I agree that 4,000 Hi per day is high, but attainable by shutting down almost all MSY and halting Musashi and Shinano which is something I do. At least that's been my experience. As to the Tokyo supply metric, I think the basic issue is whether having a single supply level at Tokyo, be it 500,000 or a million, is a reasonable guide for preventing economic burnout for Japan.

Regards, Paul

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 3

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/19/2014 11:48:08 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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Obviously it's not going to be what prevents you from burning out, but it is the first place to look to see if you have a supply problem. Well, wherever General Defense is based at. Usually Tokyo.

The other place to look is Gifu. It's the first place that won't get shipments of supply as it doesn't have a port. Or something like that.

(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 4

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/19/2014 11:48:55 PM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
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Wow, 1 million supply in Tokyo at all times?! I must be playing this game wrong. Whenever I notice Tokyo's over 200k, I load up a bunch of xAKs and send them off to supply the frontlines. Rangoon gets a 100k supply shipment every week or two, as does Hankow. Truk/Rabaul, Darwin and Soerabaja get a 50-100k shipment once a month or so. Why bother keeping that much supply in Japan when the action lies elsewhere?

(in reply to pws1225)

Post #: 5

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/19/2014 11:52:44 PM

mind_messing

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Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Wow, 1 million supply in Tokyo at all times?! I must be playing this game wrong. Whenever I notice Tokyo's over 200k, I load up a bunch of xAKs and send them off to supply the frontlines. Rangoon gets a 100k supply shipment every week or two, as does Hankow. Truk/Rabaul, Darwin and Soerabaja get a 50-100k shipment once a month or so. Why bother keeping that much supply in Japan when the action lies elsewhere?

You'll need it when there's no more oil, fuel or resources coming in and the B-29s are turning cities to dust. Better to skimp the frontlines with the bare minimum than risk the Home Islands going dry and 100k sitting at Truk or some such.

(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 6

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 12:11:03 AM

Icedawg

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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Wow, 1 million supply in Tokyo at all times?! I must be playing this game wrong. Whenever I notice Tokyo's over 200k, I load up a bunch of xAKs and send them off to supply the frontlines. Rangoon gets a 100k supply shipment every week or two, as does Hankow. Truk/Rabaul, Darwin and Soerabaja get a 50-100k shipment once a month or so. Why bother keeping that much supply in Japan when the action lies elsewhere?

You'll need it when there's no more oil, fuel or resources coming in and the B-29s are turning cities to dust. Better to skimp the frontlines with the bare minimum than risk the Home Islands going dry and 100k sitting at Truk or some such.

I agree, late in the war you'll not be wanting to send supply off to doomed outposts. I think the OP was referring to an early-game situation. In 42 and 43, you shouldn't have to worry about allied 4Es pounding your industry to dust. By keeping a strong exterior defense, you can slightly delay those dark days.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 7

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 12:19:00 AM

mind_messing

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Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Wow, 1 million supply in Tokyo at all times?! I must be playing this game wrong. Whenever I notice Tokyo's over 200k, I load up a bunch of xAKs and send them off to supply the frontlines. Rangoon gets a 100k supply shipment every week or two, as does Hankow. Truk/Rabaul, Darwin and Soerabaja get a 50-100k shipment once a month or so. Why bother keeping that much supply in Japan when the action lies elsewhere?

You'll need it when there's no more oil, fuel or resources coming in and the B-29s are turning cities to dust. Better to skimp the frontlines with the bare minimum than risk the Home Islands going dry and 100k sitting at Truk or some such.

I agree, late in the war you'll not be wanting to send supply off to doomed outposts. I think the OP was referring to an early-game situation. In 42 and 43, you shouldn't have to worry about allied 4Es pounding your industry to dust. By keeping a strong exterior defense, you can slightly delay those dark days.

Even so, I still think that keeping the supplies sent to the frontlines as closely tailored to requirements on the frontline is the way to go. 50k-100k a month seems hugely excessive to me. Even more so for places so close to the DEI, where you've big supply production centers (Java, Palambang, Singapore) much closer to the frontline, saving fuel as well as time.

(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 8

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 12:31:33 AM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Wow, 1 million supply in Tokyo at all times?! I must be playing this game wrong. Whenever I notice Tokyo's over 200k, I load up a bunch of xAKs and send them off to supply the frontlines. Rangoon gets a 100k supply shipment every week or two, as does Hankow. Truk/Rabaul, Darwin and Soerabaja get a 50-100k shipment once a month or so. Why bother keeping that much supply in Japan when the action lies elsewhere?

You'll need it when there's no more oil, fuel or resources coming in and the B-29s are turning cities to dust. Better to skimp the frontlines with the bare minimum than risk the Home Islands going dry and 100k sitting at Truk or some such.

I agree, late in the war you'll not be wanting to send supply off to doomed outposts. I think the OP was referring to an early-game situation. In 42 and 43, you shouldn't have to worry about allied 4Es pounding your industry to dust. By keeping a strong exterior defense, you can slightly delay those dark days.

Even so, I still think that keeping the supplies sent to the frontlines as closely tailored to requirements on the frontline is the way to go. 50k-100k a month seems hugely excessive to me. Even more so for places so close to the DEI, where you've big supply production centers (Java, Palambang, Singapore) much closer to the frontline, saving fuel as well as time.

We're playing DaBigBabes C, so those refineries in the DEI don't produce supply, so I need to ship in the extra.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 9

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 12:38:22 AM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Wow, 1 million supply in Tokyo at all times?! I must be playing this game wrong. Whenever I notice Tokyo's over 200k, I load up a bunch of xAKs and send them off to supply the frontlines. Rangoon gets a 100k supply shipment every week or two, as does Hankow. Truk/Rabaul, Darwin and Soerabaja get a 50-100k shipment once a month or so. Why bother keeping that much supply in Japan when the action lies elsewhere?

You'll need it when there's no more oil, fuel or resources coming in and the B-29s are turning cities to dust. Better to skimp the frontlines with the bare minimum than risk the Home Islands going dry and 100k sitting at Truk or some such.

I agree, late in the war you'll not be wanting to send supply off to doomed outposts. I think the OP was referring to an early-game situation. In 42 and 43, you shouldn't have to worry about allied 4Es pounding your industry to dust. By keeping a strong exterior defense, you can slightly delay those dark days.

Even so, I still think that keeping the supplies sent to the frontlines as closely tailored to requirements on the frontline is the way to go. 50k-100k a month seems hugely excessive to me. Even more so for places so close to the DEI, where you've big supply production centers (Java, Palambang, Singapore) much closer to the frontline, saving fuel as well as time.

We're playing DaBigBabes C, so those refineries in the DEI don't produce supply, so I need to ship in the extra.

I don't know the situation of your game, but I make a point of trying to run of local hubs than sending it all out from the Home Islands. 10k or 15k from Singapore to Burma is worth 20k from Tokyo in my book, provided that Burma only needed 10k in the first place.

(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 10

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 12:55:47 AM

Icedawg

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From: Upstate New York
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Burma has been a very active theater in my game. Lots of air and ground combat, so supply has been getting burned there at a great rate. Singapore doesn't even produce enough for its own needs, so it can't very well support other areas. Different games, different players, different styles, different events = different supply needs I guess.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 11

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 1:25:41 AM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Different games, different players, different styles, different events = different supply needs I guess.

You've hit the nail on the head, I think. Even more so with DBB hamstringing DEI production.

(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 12

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 2:18:49 AM

Chickenboy

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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
Different games, different players, different styles, different events = different supply needs I guess.

Well put.

OP: I think your "Kentucky Windage" formula is roughly OK. For stock (scenario 1 or 2) scenarios that is kind of 'ballparkish' for what I look for too. I also don't use Tracker and shoot by Kentucky Windage.

_____________________________

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Post #: 13

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 3:51:00 PM

Numdydar

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As Japan I use 'rear' bases as large supply locations that then distribute supplies to where they are needed (hub and spoke). This also helps with ASW since large well protected convoys go to these bases (so there are fewer TFs from Japan) with seperate smaller TFs taking supplies to the end nodes.

I also do not worry about the supply levels at Toyko as I found it pretty easy to replenish when needed before the bombs start dropping on Japan. Also, the Allies can get an AV in '45 without even going near the HI. Another reason not to worry too much about it.

The only real danger to the hub and spoke method is that the Allies can really mess it up without even trying. This happened to me lol. I had 120K of supplies at Davo in the PI which the Allies completely bypassed

. They ignored the southern island completely and just took the northern one. At least the LCUs there could eat well for the duration lol.

The speed in '44 which the Allies can launch an invasion is pretty amazing. They had been cleaning up around Siapan so I thought I had a few weeks before anything major occured again, but less than a week the invasion of the PI began

. No prep by CVs or any other indication it was coming. So a great job of operational suprise by my worthy Allied player.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 14

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 4:28:24 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

As Japan I use 'rear' bases as large supply locations that then distribute supplies to where they are needed (hub and spoke). This also helps with ASW since large well protected convoys go to these bases (so there are fewer TFs from Japan) with seperate smaller TFs taking supplies to the end nodes.

I also do not worry about the supply levels at Toyko as I found it pretty easy to replenish when needed before the bombs start dropping on Japan. Also, the Allies can get an AV in '45 without even going near the HI. Another reason not to worry too much about it.

The only real danger to the hub and spoke method is that the Allies can really mess it up without even trying. This happened to me lol. I had 120K of supplies at Davo in the PI which the Allies completely bypassed . They ignored the southern island completely and just took the northern one. At least the LCUs there could eat well for the duration lol.

The speed in '44 which the Allies can launch an invasion is pretty amazing. They had been cleaning up around Siapan so I thought I had a few weeks before anything major occured again, but less than a week the invasion of the PI began . No prep by CVs or any other indication it was coming. So a great job of operational suprise by my worthy Allied player.

I should probably explain a bit more. Which is difficult as my grasp of playing Japan is more intuitive and "by feel" than anything else at times.

I use a "supply floor" in Japan as a tool for me to limit myself from biting off more than I can chew. If I'm shipping out so much supply that my levels in Japan are below 1M, because I'm so short somewhere, it's less a warning that I'm going to run out of supply in Japan and more a warning that I'm doing way, way too much out on the front, or otherwise wasting supply. During the major initial expansion period, I'm fine with watching supply levels plummet - sometimes by 10,000+ per day globally! And that's with 20k+ supply production daily.

That 1M level in Japan, when not in the end game, is something I view as my reserve. If something really requires it, I'll send it out, but it will feel like I'm borrowing against Future Japan and need to pay it back. Perhaps it's simply a matter of pace - spend 3M supply all in 1942 and then only 1M in 1943, or spend 2M in each. I think I fall more towards the slow-and-steady side.

One thing that's funny in my current game, which has affected my supply levels in Japan, is that it took me a while to notice that supply was pooling in Manchukuo (and not at Kwantung Army HQ's location...) and not flowing over to China at all. This was not my experience against the AI - Manchukuo was something of a supply bank for the operations in China. In this game, not so much, and so I ended up burning a bit more fuel than I had to shipping supply from Japan rather than from Manchukuo.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 15

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 5:57:28 PM

Cribtop

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In Scenario 1 I had 4.25M supply in Tokyo after shipping 300K each to Babel and Truk. However, my frontline did not have large supply stockpiles and I had a reasonable but not crazy R&D program. Could've done more there, I think. I had excellent results with small but material expansions of HI at Singers, Georgetown, Hong Kong and Canton. The expansion costs were worth it due to reduced need to ship stuff to and from the Home Islands.

_____________________________

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RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 8:50:06 PM

offenseman

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From: Sheridan Wyoming, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

One thing that's funny in my current game, which has affected my supply levels in Japan, is that it took me a while to notice that supply was pooling in Manchukuo (and not at Kwantung Army HQ's location...) and not flowing over to China at all. This was not my experience against the AI - Manchukuo was something of a supply bank for the operations in China. In this game, not so much, and so I ended up burning a bit more fuel than I had to shipping supply from Japan rather than from Manchukuo.

Same thing in my game, everything I ship into China pools in Manchukuo. It is not causing shortages at the front because supplies seem to flow back to the troops but it means I have to set minimums anywhere I want to repair resources or whatever. It is also not allowing me to build a reserve of supply as efficiently as I would prefer in a game where stacking limits are the rule.

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RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/20/2014 9:01:13 PM

FeurerKrieg

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I'm pretty aggressive out of the gate on supply spend. My thinking is getting what I need fast to maximize returns. If you are going to do any HI, LI, R&D, Naval Yard, expansion, those all work better the earlier you do it. There are a few places on the map that start with piles of supply that you can use to feed the front line efforts for the most part, which allows you to put a lot of the home island supply back into industry expansion.

Once you get through 42, go into supply conservation mode and every move should be thought of in terms of how much supply it will cost versus the time it will keep the Allies away from the homeland. I have no problem with running supply down to 300-400k in the Home Islands early on, especially if it is being spent on LI/HI that will build that reserve back up that much faster.

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Post #: 18

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/21/2014 4:30:04 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Burma has been a very active theater in my game. Lots of air and ground combat, so supply has been getting burned there at a great rate. Singapore doesn't even produce enough for its own needs, so it can't very well support other areas. Different games, different players, different styles, different events = different supply needs I guess.

For this reason, as the Allied player, I like to see a lot of action in Burma. This plus the general wastage of supply moving over the bad supply routes can only help the Allies in the long run. Burma is a tough nut to figure out for Japan. You got a crisis if you don't hold it and it is costly to hold.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 19

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/21/2014 7:50:00 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg
I have no problem with running supply down to 300-400k in the Home Islands early on, especially if it is being spent on LI/HI that will build that reserve back up that much faster.

I didn't either. Until I got into 45.

Trouble is, you can't plan for the HI/LI to be there late, as it could be torched in 44. It's pretty surprising when you're supply production halves in a few months.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/21/2014 8:55:14 AM >

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Post #: 20

RE: JFBs: Opinions Sought on Advice Given - 2/21/2014 5:56:43 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg
I have no problem with running supply down to 300-400k in the Home Islands early on, especially if it is being spent on LI/HI that will build that reserve back up that much faster.

I didn't either. Until I got into 45.

Trouble is, you can't plan for the HI/LI to be there late, as it could be torched in 44. It's pretty surprising when you're supply production halves in a few months.

This is why I set my (medium-soft) floor of 1M. It gets me in the habit of budgeting my usage. Now, I'm not going to skimp on something necessary, I'll bite the bullet if need be... which reminds me that I have a lot of supply to ship out soon, heh. Got some repairs to do in various places.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 21