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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/15/2014 10:42:30 AM

Tarhunnas

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And a closeup of the central part of the front.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/15/2014 10:43:30 AM

Tarhunnas

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And the numbers:

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/15/2014 10:44:08 AM

Tarhunnas

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OOB:

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A snapshot AAR - 2/15/2014 11:02:36 AM

STEF78

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I will follow the winterwar closely!

Your goals?

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/15/2014 11:13:26 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

I will follow the winterwar closely!

Your goals?

I am not publishing my plans yet, I will delay that for a couple of turns on grounds of operational security. But there is a top secret map of the plans for the winter offensive to be published later.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/16/2014 5:36:15 PM

Tarhunnas

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Here are the battles on the first turn of blizzard, turn 25.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/16/2014 5:39:53 PM

Tarhunnas

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One outstanding attack by the valiant defenders of the motherland, a combined arms operation. Three German divisions have advanced on the isthmus to the Crimea. A Soviet division makes an amphibious assault behind the Germans, and a frontal assault routs them!
Note though that I was helped by the 1-1 > 2-1 rule. If I hadn't routed them out they would have been isolated, but I wasn't sure they wouldn't be able to break out.

The map is taken from the combat reports after all movement was finished, so the positions of the units are not as they were at the time of the attack, I was busy toasting in vodka and shouting "Urrah!" so I didn't have the presence of mind to do a screenshot as the battle resolved...

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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 2/16/2014 6:42:56 PM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/19/2014 7:16:43 PM

Tarhunnas

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Here is a map from turn 29, 1st January 1942. After Soviet moves. I have also marked the front line before Blizzard.

The Germans have held fast to the Moscow salient with strong forces east and north of the city in reasonably prepared positions. Here my attacks have mostly stalled after a one hex advance.

From the Tula area on south the picture is different. The Germans have relatively weak forces without prepared fortifications and I have been driving them back easily. Down at the Black sea the German front have been completely unhinged and the 40th Army is on its way west to connect with the forces advancing north from the Crimea, supported by local partisans.
The problem is I am not sure I want all this territory; it will leave me with a long and vulnerable front come spring. But OTOH it should help my manpower situation.

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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 2/19/2014 8:18:04 PM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/19/2014 9:00:15 PM

Tarhunnas

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BTW as you can see I have some armies under STAVKA control, partly to not overload the Fronts, but also to be able to disengage them and move them around if the need should arise. What do the experts say: is this a good idea or do I get so many penalties it should be avoided?

Another question: I still have a couple of Tank Divisions with hundreds of tanks that refuse to convert to brigades. Should I disband them to add all those tanks to the pool, or should I just park them somewhere at 20% TOE and starve them out?

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 2/19/2014 10:04:32 PM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 2:39:21 AM

jwolf

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I'm only a beginner but I love those tank divisions during the first winter! Their CV is as high as a good rifle division or cav corps -- even a guards unit. So I use them in the winter attacks until they're either burned out from fighting or they convert to the pitifully weak brigades. Even then, the tank brigades converted from earlier divisions are much stronger than the newly formed tank brigades you get. Also the tank divisions get a much higher movement allowance than the brigades, up to 40 points in January.

I also would like to hear an expert opinion on your first question (armies or separate units under STAVKA control) as I have the same issue.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 7:02:56 AM

loki100

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I've certainly seen experts like FlaviusX support keeping the main mobile armies under Stavka in 42-43 (by that I presume he means the Shock and Tank armies) as they need to move around quite a lot.

One disadvantage is that they will not share air support with whichever front they are in action with. Its not till quite late summer 42 do you get more air army HQs than you need for a 1-1 relationship with the Fronts (unless you saved some of the long range commands in 1941).

Another is you will almost inevitably get the malus for different armies/different front (ie -30%) at some stage in trying to put in really powerful attacks and possibly if your defense is under a lot of pressure.

My partial solution is to assume the tank armies are going to be most use in the Ukraine regardless. You get a fresh front (SE?) in early summer 42, give that to a good armour commander and then hook in the tank armies to that. You can shift it around as needed and it carries a real weight. Let the armies in the north/centre have individual tank corps as needed.

So really not sure, I think some Front overloading is inevitable and its a bit cheesy to have an army-Stavka relationship (the few times the Soviets did that in combat led to chaos).

As to the remnant tank divisions. I'd use them. They can be among your most powerful units. Also they tend to be stuffed with BTs etc so even if you disband most of the armour is never re-used.

Fascinating (& deeply disturbing) to see how little you gained over winter - I fear I am heading for the same outcome.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 7:39:01 AM

Tarhunnas

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@Jwolf. I've never seen my Tank Divs get 40 MPs, they tend to get 20 at a maximum, and that is barely enough to move into contact, most of the time they cannot make a deliberate attack. And they are so brittle, every attack will burn up 100 tanks or so even if successsful!

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 9:03:30 AM

Wuffer

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Normal German losses, not so bad. Did his Panzers stay all the time in the open fields?

As you said, Tankdivisions are a oneshot wonder: brittle, slow and obsolete. And soon disbanded anyway. So, when to use them if not now? I would be more than happy to exchange them with something valuable ...

Did you have some paras left? Maybe you could built a local schwerpunkt and rout/catch some, or at least force his panzergang further into the steppe.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 12:09:46 PM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
Fascinating (& deeply disturbing) to see how little you gained over winter - I fear I am heading for the same outcome.

The blizzard isn't half way through yet. From my point of view it feels like a rout. I'm running ten miles a week in the South but even so I get pushed back another 10 miles and I've only avoided losing a handful of divisions by the narrowest of margins. It's been pure luck that I've not lost even one yet. The unit TOEs down here are also pitiful in places (some in the 20s and 30s). The Romanians don't seem to be getting any replacements at all.

North of the Oka it's been a different story. The terrain plus the presence of five German armies (one in reserve) between the Oka and Torzhok have insured that. The reserve army (3rd panzer) has now gone South to help out.

16th and 18th armies are looking fairly strong and reasonably well dug in North of Torzhok.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 1:04:46 PM

jwolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

@Jwolf. I've never seen my Tank Divs get 40 MPs, they tend to get 20 at a maximum, and that is barely enough to move into contact, most of the time they cannot make a deliberate attack. And they are so brittle, every attack will burn up 100 tanks or so even if successful!

I'm still playing an older version so maybe the rules were changed about the MPs, though I hope not! Admittedly as you say the tank divs burn through their tanks very quickly but as the others pointed out many of these tanks will be lost anyway and you might as well get some use out of them. Also they will get resupplied with a few new tanks every turn. My best guards tank div was stable through most of the winter at about 100-150 tanks before it finally got changed to a brigade in February.

Loki: you mentioned that it's "cheesy" to have armies under STAVKA command, but how else can we operate? If I put all those armies under the nearest fronts then those fronts would be overloaded by a factor of 1.5 to 2 pretty much across the board. Is that really what is intended?

Actual comment on the AAR: it's really nice to get both points of view here. Also if both players are feeling strained and fearing their armies' crumbling, that looks like a great match and a fun game. Congrats to both of you and keep up the good work!

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 1:21:33 PM

ito

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My front

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 1:24:15 PM

loki100

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re the fronts.

Remember the load comes from CPs not armies - realise this sounds trite but it took me a while to get my head around it.

I find that to the end of the first winter I don't have enough combat ready divisions to really overload the fronts, but then I do spend CPs on taking low morale and low strength divisions back into Stavka reserve, so I have a sort of conveyor belt set up. Equally, with an eye on the drop of army capacity in early 42, I tend to only load my armies up to 18.

By the time the at start fronts are at risk of overloading due to the returning formations, you tend to get the Volkhov and Caucasus Fronts. Which relieves the problem for some time. The conversion of cavalry divs to corps lowers the CP load, which tends to allow me to absorb the winter arrivals (but remember I'm still spending a lot of AP on rotation).

The next safety nets are the SE Front in spring 42 and the rifle corps. Again that seems to create a bit of headroom.

My final choice is to heavily overload one front and give it to a total numpty. There are a few available

. Let this overload, as it does no harm. In most games, whichever Front you have up north is a good choice for this. Equally the Volga MD is another get out clause in 42 when its likely to be close to the front. Again try and give it a quiet sector and overload.

So, on balance, I find I have about -10 on the CPs for most fronts, and yes I do think you are meant by design to have a problem. Its not a good simulation in my opinion, in that the Soviet doctrine was a front was a single axis of advance or strategic defense region. What I think the game sort of simulates is that overall the Soviets lacked for a command infrastructure, but the reality was they allocated what they had to key commands - hence the infrastructure of Stavka representatives etc. So what you should really have is a pool of front CPs and the ability to package them up - so you could have the late war 1st Ukrainian/1st Bielorussian monsters.

In practice, the only time that formations attached to Stavka were engaged was the Tikhvin battles in late 41. Proved to be a total disaster as army commanders were sending low level requests to Stavka.

After that, Soviet histories frequently refer to armies being pulled into 'Stavka reserve', which to me means detached from the Front structure, but to refit or be redeployed such as Chuikov's 8GA being moved from the Korsun sector to take part in Bagration. The in-game problem is the AP cost is too high to operate on that model, but that leads to the problem that the APs are trying to model too much.

sorry for the thread hi-jack

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 1:31:14 PM

Tarhunnas

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No problem, Loki, good post, thanks for the insight!

I admit to slight cheese but feel that any cheese in operating armies under Stavka is vindicated by the absurdly high AP cost of pulling an army out for reserve or reassignment to another front.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 1:35:30 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

Did you have some paras left? Maybe you could built a local schwerpunkt and rout/catch some, or at least force his panzergang further into the steppe.

I do have lots of desantniki. Some of them sitting at airbases honing the edges of their spades waiting to jump (yes, Timmy, I have figured it out by now) but IMHO there hasn't been a good situation to drop them yet. Just plopping them down in the steppe does no real good and just risks having them stomped on by the nearest panzer, but we'll see...

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 6:36:36 PM

gingerbread

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Are you seeing any signs of low/no supply? Your pool is only 1.5 times need, and that is rather low.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 6:44:21 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Are you seeing any signs of low/no supply? Your pool is only 1.5 times need, and that is rather low.

Can't get at the game until it's my turn, but what should I look for?

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/20/2014 7:42:53 PM

gingerbread

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Units getting less than requirement. There is an undertab in the unit tab in the CR that lists received supply in both phases. I suggest you filter to Rifle Divisions for ease of comparison.

You should not look for 0 values since they are likely due to OOR during the 1st phase.

Note the convenient listing of Global Stocks in % of needed at the top.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/21/2014 8:27:37 AM

Gabriel B.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

BTW as you can see I have some armies under STAVKA control, partly to not overload the Fronts, but also to be able to disengage them and move them around if the need should arise. What do the experts say: is this a good idea or do I get so many penalties it should be avoided?

Another question: I still have a couple of Tank Divisions with hundreds of tanks that refuse to convert to brigades. Should I disband them to add all those tanks to the pool, or should I just park them somewhere at 20% TOE and starve them out?

Those are most likely 41B TOE divisions with only 190 tanks , but they upgrade
in january .

I cant say i have spared them trough the summer, except that they arive with low morale
and crap experience and need some time of.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/21/2014 8:43:17 AM

Gabriel B.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

The blizzard isn't half way through yet. From my point of view it feels like a rout. I'm running ten miles a week in the South but even so I get pushed back another 10 miles and I've only avoided losing a handful of divisions by the narrowest of margins. It's been pure luck that I've not lost even one yet. The unit TOEs down here are also pitiful in places (some in the 20s and 30s). The Romanians don't seem to be getting any replacements at all.

You have no screening force deployed and are taking it in the chin.
3 jagger divisions broken down into regiments can act as a rear guard for 17th army, the soviets have the mp to knock you out of the
2nd hex, but rarely get 15mp to ocupy the 3rd hex.

use the screen to burn soviet mp, and you would not be chased by infantry alone.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/22/2014 5:58:32 AM

Tarhunnas

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Turn 30. 8 January 1942, Blizzard.

The Germans can and do counterattack in selected places.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/22/2014 6:04:41 AM

Tarhunnas

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@Gingerbread. Here is the supply listing. I must admit I don't really grasp what the numbers mean. And what does the Soviet ammo modifier do? Never saw that before.

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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 2/22/2014 7:04:58 AM >

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/22/2014 8:07:36 AM

gingerbread

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This looks OK or at least OK-ish. The units attached to an army are getting at least sustenance supply, and more in some cases.

I would assume that the STAVKA attached ones are getting theirs in Phase 2, due to distance from HQ.

You have made it into 1942, so the HI gets a multiplier. Also, one of the ammo rolls are gone. These are rolls that when failed halves the ammo actually received from supply conversion. See 20.3.2.1 for details.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/22/2014 9:25:54 AM

Tarhunnas

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Ah, so not receiving supply in phase 1 would be a reason to avoid having armies directly under Stavka then?

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/22/2014 9:53:39 AM

gingerbread

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This is about combat units attached directly to STAVKA. If a combat unit is attached to an army, it does not matter that much to which higher HQ that army is in turn attached to.

If you are concerned, you can filter to STAVKA (by pressing the text 'STAVKA') and then check Phase 1 & Ph 2 to verify that the combat units does get supplied in one of the phases. It should be just as adequate to get supplies in ph 2 as in ph 1.

If I may contribute my .02 to the attachment discussion, if I have to use STAVKA attached armies, I prefer to use them vs the Finns and shuffle the Fronts south as needed. There is not that much valuable real estate in the north after Leningrad, and if the Finns attack they take casualties that they can ill afford. I also keep all Tank Brigades attached to either STAVKA or a rear area command. I use them sparingly to reduce vehicle losses and they don't contribute that much CV value in any case.

Volga and (not for you) Moscow MD I use for the armies, preferably Shock, with CAV Corps. These will not be in combat after the blizzard, due to ARM costs, until much later.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/22/2014 9:57:17 AM

Gabriel B.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Ah, so not receiving supply in phase 1 would be a reason to avoid having armies directly under Stavka then?

that relates only to combat units.

PHASE 1: armies and corps deliver suplies to combat units in 5 hex and 20 mp range .

PHASE 2 : Divisions try to suply themselves .

I usually asign combat units imeadiatly to Military districts , so newly arived units
are easier to spot on the map, without using the commander report.

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