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US TO&E - 2/18/2014 1:30:53 AM

Sabre21

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I noticed a missing Bradley from each of the companies in the 3rd Herd scenario of 21 July 1989. There should be 14, not 13 per company. The Hq has two, one for the Co and one for the Xo. The 1SG rides in the M113.

I know this is miniscule but wanted a thread for any thing I might find.

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RE: US TO&E - 2/18/2014 3:17:07 AM

Mad Russian

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In the scenarios I created you can't go by full strength TO&E. In many of them I short units of various equipment at various times. There are few scenarios where all the units are at full strength. In some scenarios the TO&E's have been ravaged by previous combats.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 2

RE: US TO&E - 2/18/2014 12:00:50 PM

Sabre21

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I kind of figured that might have been the case, just odd that every company was missing the same vehicle and were all at the same strength.

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RE: US TO&E - 2/18/2014 8:34:37 PM

Mad Russian

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In that case, we could be missing the vehicle in the TO&E. Jim worked on the data base from long before I got here to at least until midnight last night. That is a beast that is never caged. Just when you think you might actually have a solid working model you get more information and get to tweak it all over again.

In my life I've done a tremendous amount of research on unit orders of battle and TO&E's (ORBATS). In the process I learned along the way that few of them are ever set in stone.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: US TO&E - 2/18/2014 11:38:53 PM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
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From: on a mountain in Idaho
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

In that case, we could be missing the vehicle in the TO&E. Jim worked on the data base from long before I got here to at least until midnight last night. That is a beast that is never caged. Just when you think you might actually have a solid working model you get more information and get to tweak it all over again.

In my life I've done a tremendous amount of research on unit orders of battle and TO&E's (ORBATS). In the process I learned along the way that few of them are ever set in stone.

Good Hunting.

MR

I hear ya. I've done a lot of the same. Back in the day long before the internet was such a good source of info I wrote up a 1989 Nato/Wp OOB covering all of the countries involved and that was a chore. I still have a lot of the original source material I used back then sitting here collecting dust.

By the way, there is a typo in your 12B scenario. About the 4th or so paragraph down you wrote to call the 11B's...lol..I know you meant to write 12B's. Before I went to flight school I was an 11B3V.

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RE: US TO&E - 2/19/2014 4:28:49 PM

22sec

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From: Jackson, MS
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Any chance you are the Andy Johnson?

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RE: US TO&E - 2/21/2014 1:21:31 AM

Sabre21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 21SEC

Any chance you are the Andy Johnson?

I'm not sure I should answer this one but yea, last time I looked that was my name. I don't think I have any kids in Jackson, at least not any I know of :)

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Post #: 7

RE: US TO&E - 2/21/2014 2:12:38 AM

22sec

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Your OOBs are still on my hard drive, and can still be found floating around the internet. In fact someone expanded the NATO one.

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RE: US TO&E - 2/21/2014 3:44:03 AM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 21SEC

Your OOBs are still on my hard drive, and can still be found floating around the internet. In fact someone expanded the NATO one.

I'm glad to hear someone still uses them. When I made them the internet was still in its infancy and sources were pretty limited. About the only OOB's I knew were rock solid were the US Army and National Guard considering I got that data right from the Army historical center and National Guard Bureau.

The rest of the OOB's came from where I could scrap them from, a lot of Jane's and stuff like that. Fortunately as the internet evolved and better sources of info came available, some folks took it upon themselves to fix what I started and really did improve upon it. I still have copies myself.

These guys here are doing a good job with this game and I'm looking forward to seeing plenty of expansions providing Rob don't keel over on us

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RE: US TO&E - 2/21/2014 12:33:19 PM

Mad Russian

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I believe I used those for the basis of my own OOB's. I have made changes to them as I come across them but they are great starting points. As you said, it would be a shame to let all that research effort go to waste.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 10

RE: US TO&E - 2/21/2014 1:30:05 PM

JohnO

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Ok, I'll bite, "Who is Andy Johnson"? and what OOB did he build and can I get it?

UPDATE: Now I know who you are, NATO OOB 1989

< Message edited by JohnO -- 2/21/2014 3:11:59 PM >

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RE: US TO&E - 2/21/2014 2:22:39 PM

Sabre21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnO

Ok, I'll bite, "Who is Andy Johnson"? and what OOB did he build and can I get it?

UPDATE: Now I know who you are, NATO OOB 1989

Yep that's me..I also have a WP OOB dated the same. I just wish over the years someone would have updated it as
Pat Callahan did with the Nato one. He did a tremendous amount of updating including adding in all the pictures
and maps.

< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 2/21/2014 3:30:59 PM >

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RE: US TO&E - 2/21/2014 2:33:08 PM

JohnO

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Yep, I got that one too, had both on my hard drive for years. In fact I'm using it, when building my scenario. One thing that I want to do is build a scenario with East Germans fighting against the West German. I'm working on a East German user database after I finish the user database for 1-36IN BN campaign. Can't find much information on the East Germans.

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RE: US TO&E - 2/21/2014 2:50:56 PM

Sabre21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnO

Yep, I got that one too, had both on my hard drive for years. In fact I'm using it, when building my scenario. One thing that I want to do is build a scenario with East Germans fighting against the West German. I'm working on a East German user database after I finish the user database for 1-36IN BN campaign. Can't find much information on the East Germans.

I'm not sure what you might need to know. There were 2 East German Armies, the 5th and the 3rd if I remember right. Each had a Tank division with T-72's and BMP 2's and should use the same organization as the Soviet tank division. No 2S6's though, they still only had ZSU 23-4's at the time and SA-13's/Sa-9's at regimental level.

The motorized divisions still had T-55's as their main battle tank and BTR-60's, BMP 1's, and even BTR-50's. They didn't have much in the way of modern equipment in the motorized divisions. What's interesting though is that they had a better maintenance record than their Soviet counterparts did despite the antiquated equipment. These divisions would have the same organization as the Soviet MRD's.

I would definitely use an E German tank division TO&E vs the W Germanns to make things more equitable. Although you could use a German territorial unit equipped with Leopard 1's rather than a regular army unit.

< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 2/21/2014 3:55:25 PM >

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RE: US TO&E - 2/22/2014 1:04:29 AM

Mad Russian

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Somewhere I thought I remembered that it was stated not to make changes to those. I have both of them as well and have steadily updated them as I went. They are the basis for my OOB's for both sides.

I would like to personally thank you for taking the time to put those together. They weren't my last stop on the road to scenario creation but they were my first stop. Outstanding work!!

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: US TO&E - 2/22/2014 2:47:50 AM

Sabre21

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I appreciate the comments guys. I made it primarily as a result of TOAW III when it first came out ages ago when Erik was working on it back during the Talonsoft forum days. I made it for gamers to update their OOB's and left it on the internet for anyone to use. It's pretty interesting to see how far it has come and am glad that people are still using them both.

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RE: US TO&E - 2/22/2014 11:39:15 AM

JohnO

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From: Colorado Springs, CO
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What I menat to say, was finding information about the East Germans units, like patches, history of the unit, when I do a scenario or campaign, I like to know what kind of units they were. Makes building the scenarios or campaigns interesting when you know the history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnO

Yep, I got that one too, had both on my hard drive for years. In fact I'm using it, when building my scenario. One thing that I want to do is build a scenario with East Germans fighting against the West German. I'm working on a East German user database after I finish the user database for 1-36IN BN campaign. Can't find much information on the East Germans.

I'm not sure what you might need to know. There were 2 East German Armies, the 5th and the 3rd if I remember right. Each had a Tank division with T-72's and BMP 2's and should use the same organization as the Soviet tank division. No 2S6's though, they still only had ZSU 23-4's at the time and SA-13's/Sa-9's at regimental level.

The motorized divisions still had T-55's as their main battle tank and BTR-60's, BMP 1's, and even BTR-50's. They didn't have much in the way of modern equipment in the motorized divisions. What's interesting though is that they had a better maintenance record than their Soviet counterparts did despite the antiquated equipment. These divisions would have the same organization as the Soviet MRD's.

I would definitely use an E German tank division TO&E vs the W Germanns to make things more equitable. Although you could use a German territorial unit equipped with Leopard 1's rather than a regular army unit.

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RE: US TO&E - 2/22/2014 1:13:20 PM

CapnDarwin

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You can add my name to the list of people who have multiple versions of both the NATO and WP OOBs in my source info file. Great work.

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RE: US TO&E - 2/22/2014 5:06:41 PM

Sabre21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnO

What I menat to say, was finding information about the East Germans units, like patches, history of the unit, when I do a scenario or campaign, I like to know what kind of units they were. Makes building the scenarios or campaigns interesting when you know the history.

I agree, knowing more of those you face was always of interest to me. When I was in the 3rd ID, our main foe was the 8th Guards Army. When I gave Threat training, on occasion I would go into the history of the 8th Guards Army and trace it back to the Stalingrad days. I think some of my fellow pilots thought I was a commie at heart :)

I couldn't help you much though on the East German unit histories. I can't say for certain the individual divisions were derived from the former Wehrmacht or not. The W Germans shouldn't be too hard since both the Heer and the Luftwaffe maintained former unit histories.

< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 2/22/2014 6:09:03 PM >

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RE: US TO&E - 4/11/2014 7:04:08 PM

IronMikeGolf

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What about field ambulances for line companies in Inf Bns (not so much for combat capabilities as VPs the Soviet can reap)? Oh, and the 4.2 plt? FISTV? I was not in 3d Herd (1-509 mid 80s, 8ID and 1AD early and mid 90s), but I'd expect a D Co equipped with M901s.

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RE: US TO&E - 5/6/2014 7:48:59 AM

marcbellizzi

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A reasonable source for unit histories and MTOE for the NVA (East German Army) is over at the Axis History Project website. They have a section dedicated to the NVA. check axishistory dot com/various/nationale-volksarmee-east-germany

Andy, not sure if you remember me, Marc Bellizzi, we chatted from time to time over on TankNet many many years ago.

I was with 3AD as 'the Wall' came down and I went to the Desert with a BFV equipped mech battalion as an 11A00V (a butterbar). The XO's did not get their BFV's with us (5-5CAV) which actually was an Infantry Bn - it had been the 2-36 IN under the old Army TOE - but in the 3AD some wizard decided BFV units would get titled 'Cav' under Army of Excellence TOE to differentiate us from the Bn's that had not transitioned. I cannot begin to relate the grief and cajoling we grunts got for getting tagged Cav...

The XO's got an M2A3 IIRC. It was the square sided model, I know that for sure, because it was supposed to be able to take the bolt on reactive armor, so it was either an A2 or A3. The XO's BFV's were hastily shipped over just before we left for the Gulf. Prior to that the XO's floated around in an M113.

Marc

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Post #: 21

RE: US TO&E - 5/7/2014 1:49:05 AM

MikeAP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iron Mike Golf

What about field ambulances for line companies in Inf Bns (not so much for combat capabilities as VPs the Soviet can reap)? Oh, and the 4.2 plt? FISTV?

I agree, a line CO HQ should include the FISTV and ambulance.

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Post #: 22

RE: US TO&E - 5/9/2014 3:16:35 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: 21SEC

Your OOBs are still on my hard drive, and can still be found floating around the internet. In fact someone expanded the NATO one.

I'm glad to hear someone still uses them. When I made them the internet was still in its infancy and sources were pretty limited. About the only OOB's I knew were rock solid were the US Army and National Guard considering I got that data right from the Army historical center and National Guard Bureau.

The rest of the OOB's came from where I could scrap them from, a lot of Jane's and stuff like that. Fortunately as the internet evolved and better sources of info came available, some folks took it upon themselves to fix what I started and really did improve upon it. I still have copies myself.

Andy, I sent you a PM. I used your OOBs extensively back in 2006 to adapt GDW's Third World War to Schwerpunkt's Anglo-German War. Good stuff. Thank you!

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Post #: 23

RE: US TO&E - 1/31/2015 4:06:01 AM

Ian R

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From: Cammeraygal Country
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And mine.

(Although I only have the original version of the Pact OOB file so don't use it so much anymore.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

You can add my name to the list of people who have multiple versions of both the NATO and WP OOBs in my source info file. Great work.