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A Nit Pick... - 2/22/2014 2:04:28 AM

Werewolf13

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

Not trying to be combative - just wondering how the game works and arrives at some of the environmental factors it is reporting.

I noticed on my 1st time out of the gate that the mouse cursor was reporting layer and convergence zone information when hovering over land. Hmmmmm...

From experience serving on subs I know that convergence zones are pretty snarky things (ex - once about 30 miles west of Gibraltar our sonar guys picked up what they classified as a Trippe class Frigate coming out of Charleston, SC on our BQQ5 Towed array. No one believed 'em but the Captain checked next time we could deploy the periscope antenna and sure enough the sonar guys were right. Now that was an unusual situation. That said the CZ's reported over water seem to be a bit too constant to me and one wonders how they are arrived at. I did notice that in shallow waters no CZ's at all - yep that matches what I know about CZ's.

I wasn't a sonarman. I was a Nuc ET Reactor operator but you learn a lot gettin' your dolphins and tend not to forget it even 30 years later.

_____________________________

Freedom is not free! Nor should it be. For men being men will neither fight for nor value that which is free.

Michael Andress

Post #: 1

RE: A Nit Pick... - 2/22/2014 2:46:25 AM

NakedWeasel

Posts: 500
Joined: 1/14/2014
Status: offline

Hey Werewolf, Welcome home, Squidly-diddly!

Glad to see I'm not the only Glow Boy in the house. I was an MM3 aboard the Stinkin' Lincoln, plank owner, rack rider.... Class A bilge rat, Gutter Snipe of the Third Kind. Being in M Division, I spent most of my time on the steam-side and in the shaft alleys, and a little time in "Hot Zones" in the aft hanger bay dealing with a little "broken arrow" fun and games. Honestly, I was never interested in becoming an engineer-type, wanted to be a SEAL like every other military brat who joins the Navy- but I couldn't get a waiver for terrible eyesight. Apparently, the powers that be thought it might be useful for me to get too close to radiation and super-heated steam and sent me down the day-glo yellow deck road. I did that for a tour and decided I was a people person, and I like guns, so can I please be a corpsman instead? They said NO! You can do another West Pac, Snipe.

I said, Well, I guess it's time to leave this sorry outfit.... and went to college and became a medic/firefighter anyway. I had some good times, and met some very bright people, and like you- I got to see the guts of a nuke plant from the inside. But I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore.

(in reply to Werewolf13)

Post #: 2

RE: A Nit Pick... - 2/22/2014 3:23:31 AM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

Watch the CZ info in your data block change as you move. Its a better indicator as to whats going on.
The circle graphic is a visual queue but won't morph due to land. We might look at it one day but doesn't appear high on our list.

Thanks

Mike

_____________________________

(in reply to NakedWeasel)

Post #: 3

RE: A Nit Pick... - 2/22/2014 10:58:31 AM

dillonkbase

Posts: 177
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline

This seems like a good place to ask a dumb question...

In the manual is a fairly complete explanation of the depths levels, however, I still cannot figure out what is tactically most advantageous... I seem to get torpedo's up my pooper even at very low speeds just above the layer or in it, without detecting anything...

Could someone break down the best hunting ground, hiding place, and escape depth for the towed array subs and the non-towed array subs. Also at what speed am I really degrading my passive sensors(I know the sub type matters here.... so a generalization fine or I guess a 688i)?

Finally, is there any reason to think that I am more capable than the AI when "engaged defensive"

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 4

RE: A Nit Pick... - 2/22/2014 11:12:50 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dillonkbase

This seems like a good place to ask a dumb question...

In the manual is a fairly complete explanation of the depths levels, however, I still cannot figure out what is tactically most advantageous... I seem to get torpedo's up my pooper even at very low speeds just above the layer or in it, without detecting anything...

Could someone break down the best hunting ground, hiding place, and escape depth for the towed array subs and the non-towed array subs. Also at what speed am I really degrading my passive sensors(I know the sub type matters here.... so a generalization fine or I guess a 688i)?

Finally, is there any reason to think that I am more capable than the AI when "engaged defensive"

Just above layer means that your towed array is then under the layer. It is often a good position, since your hull passive sonar detects well above layer and towed array below layer. There is one situation where you are at disadvantage, though. That is when enemy happens to be above layer AND behind you, since your propellers block your sonar towards rear (called "baffles") and layer blocks most of towed sonar capability for above the layer.

Thus, you need to change course now and then to check there are no-one behind your sub. Also remember that good sonar conditions just above layer work both ways, so if enemy is more quiet than you (e.g. electric boat vs. nuclear boat), he may detect you first.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to dillonkbase)

Post #: 5

RE: A Nit Pick... - 2/22/2014 1:30:18 PM

Werewolf13

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Watch the CZ info in your data block change as you move. Its a better indicator as to whats going on.
The circle graphic is a visual queue but won't morph due to land. We might look at it one day but doesn't appear high on our list.

Thanks

Mike

Kind'a figured it was something like that.

That said:

As a rank newbie with the manual sitting open before me and CMNAO open and running I have to ask what is the circle graphic mentioned. I see no circle graphic showing the CZ's over water and (that would be a truly useful feature). How does one make that graphic appear?

_____________________________

Freedom is not free! Nor should it be. For men being men will neither fight for nor value that which is free.

Michael Andress

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 6

RE: A Nit Pick... - 2/22/2014 1:51:36 PM

Werewolf13

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dillonkbase

This seems like a good place to ask a dumb question...

In the manual is a fairly complete explanation of the depths levels, however, I still cannot figure out what is tactically most advantageous... I seem to get torpedo's up my pooper even at very low speeds just above the layer or in it, without detecting anything...

Could someone break down the best hunting ground, hiding place, and escape depth for the towed array subs and the non-towed array subs. Also at what speed am I really degrading my passive sensors(I know the sub type matters here.... so a generalization fine or I guess a 688i)?

Finally, is there any reason to think that I am more capable than the AI when "engaged defensive"

I was a fast attack sailor not a boomer sailor (those guys were weird).

Here's how we generally operated.

Transiting: Under layer, sprint and drift unless we needed to get there fast. I only remember that twice did we ever go fast enough to cavitate and one of those was on purpose.

Hunter mode: Depth depended on where the target was. If it was below the layer we'd go slow and ride just above so the towed array would sink below it. Thus we were masked by the layer. The towed array will only sink so far and not at all if going fast enough. Don't know if CMNAO models that or not. We generally didn't go much faster than 5 knots with the array deployed and being used to listen. If the target was above the layer so were we and going slow so they couldn't hear us.

If we were the hunted we tried to be on the opposite side of the layer from our opponent. If the target was a surface ship we pretty much did what ever we wanted. Suckers couldn't hear us even when we turned on the noise maker to make us sound like noisey Russian boats. I do have some sea stories about that.

Unlike a Fighter in the air where speed is their friend for a sub it is just the opposite. Speed is not your friend. Go as slow as you can get away with and still be able to keep a fire control solution on your opponent and engage him. Never ever use active sonar - ever. Only once did we ever go active and that was with a single ping and it was our Captain sayin' bye bye to the Moskva who we'd been trailin' for a week in the Med and his sub escort. We never ever did that again.

What I've described is how we did it in the mid 70's to early 80's. I imagine that technology has changed so that US boats can go faster and hear farther.

I'll be investigating that in the game when I get familiar enough with it to put some test scenarios together. (really looking forward to that)

And always remember: There's only two types of ships in the world: Submarines and Targets!

_____________________________

Freedom is not free! Nor should it be. For men being men will neither fight for nor value that which is free.

Michael Andress

(in reply to dillonkbase)

Post #: 7

RE: A Nit Pick... - 2/23/2014 1:00:08 AM

ed72n

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/23/2013
Status: offline

Congratulations on your service, Weasel!

I had a co-worker whose niece was a crew member of the USS Abraham Lincoln and through them, I got on a "Family Day Cruise" in 1998. I had a great time touring the ship and watching the cat-shots and landing demonstrations by an EA-6 from Whitbey Island NAS. I had enlargements of this demonstration hung up in my office wall and I got HUGE prestige points from visitors and co-workers.

The one picture that I forgot to take was when I was in one of the ship's stores where I was buying hats and mugs for my co-worker's family. I couldn't help but notice how hot is was in there. After finding the items and waiting to pay, I noticed on the floor a 2 inch diameter pipe sticking out and a cap on top with a warning. It said something like, "Warning, access port to nuclear reactor." I figured the store must have been directly over the reactor due to the heat and sign. I've told many friends that "I must have been within 30 feet of the ship's reactor," but I kick myself for never taking the picture. (Imagine THOSE prestige points . . .)

I guess you can say I'm a "Glow Boy Tourist" now. Sad to say, I was not cheeky enough to ask for a tour of the reactor although I'm a techie type. (But I did get to run up the Admiral's private stairwell to the bridge before I got admonished by one of the crew members.) I have great memories of that great trip . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel

Hey Werewolf, Welcome home, Squidly-diddly!

Glad to see I'm not the only Glow Boy in the house. I was an MM3 aboard the Stinkin' Lincoln, plank owner, rack rider.... Class A bilge rat, Gutter Snipe of the Third Kind. Being in M Division, I spent most of my time on the steam-side and in the shaft alleys, and a little time in "Hot Zones" in the aft hanger bay dealing with a little "broken arrow" fun and games. Honestly, I was never interested in becoming an engineer-type, wanted to be a SEAL like every other military brat who joins the Navy- but I couldn't get a waiver for terrible eyesight. Apparently, the powers that be thought it might be useful for me to get too close to radiation and super-heated steam and sent me down the day-glo yellow deck road. I did that for a tour and decided I was a people person, and I like guns, so can I please be a corpsman instead? They said NO! You can do another West Pac, Snipe.

I said, Well, I guess it's time to leave this sorry outfit.... and went to college and became a medic/firefighter anyway. I had some good times, and met some very bright people, and like you- I got to see the guts of a nuke plant from the inside. But I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore.

(in reply to NakedWeasel)

Post #: 8

RE: A Nit Pick... - 2/23/2014 3:07:50 PM

NakedWeasel

Posts: 500
Joined: 1/14/2014
Status: offline

Ed, what you most likely feeling heat from, was the steam supply for the waist cats. The actual RAR's, ( Reactor room 1&2 ) were really not that hot, ambient temps in there were about 85F. The real heat came from the Main Machinery rooms, just aft of each reactor room. Temps in there could get close to 100 and was humid as a sauna. Absolutely enormous amount of pressurized super-heated steam circulating through there, mostly supplying the drive turbines, and the desalination plants. Most of my time was spent below the waterline, underneath the mid hanger bay. A lot of it is foggy now- I got out in '94, and tried hard to transition away from the Navy. Glad you enjoyed the ride. I'm sure I would've enjoyed it much more, if I'd only been a passenger, as opposed to being an over-worked part of the machine.