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Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/20/2014 7:37:36 AM   
laska2k8


Posts: 556
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I feel a little bit upset, but I didn't get rid of this campaign scenario.
Whatever tactic I choose it ends always with a soviet victory, it seems a never ending wave of men, a flood.

Falling back it's a bloody mess, even if tried earlier or later. Also firing artillery reduce a little bit the advance, but sooner or later they arrive.....

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RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/20/2014 10:23:25 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Please read this thread ... it might help.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3547396



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Post #: 2
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/20/2014 10:48:41 AM   
markhwalker


Posts: 951
Joined: 1/29/2005
Status: offline 		Yep, it is definitely a boss scenario. Vance (Bartheart) is a great player, but I would contradict him in this. Don't waste any fire on the Soviet Leaders. If they Rally troops, so be it. The troops they rally might not have time t return to the fight. Never, ever, fire on a single Russian squad unless you need to do so to avoid an unwanted melee. Always fire on stacks.

Use the Slayer Skill Wisely. H9, I9, and G9 are all good locations. Remember, after the Slayer marker is placed, it has about a 40% chance of attacking anyone that moves in the placement hex or the six adjacent hexes. Artillery... use it at or near the end of a turn. Tom's AI is smart enough to walk around a barrage, so try to drop it AFTER the units have moved, right on top of a bunch of them. Alternately, make it your first action. You know where those Soviets start, drop it right on top of their heads. They don't mind.

Pulling back... only do it after all Russian units have committed, ESPECIALLY those two heavy machineguns. If you do it before all the Russians have moved/fired they will Op Fire and cut down your retreating units.

Finally, keep the sausage guy safe. Don't expose him to return fire, and avoid melees with his stack.

Hope this helps.

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Post #: 3
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/20/2014 10:49:35 AM   
laska2k8


Posts: 556
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

Please read this thread ... it might help.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3547396




finally I got it (three more attempt and some saved game help to complete the task).
I retreated to the second defense line in the first turn, just waiting for the soviets to come and then holding fire until they were near the dangerous line.
I used the artillery in the middle and to soften the right flank attack when there was a consistent number of enemy units.
Also smoke helps to shield Wurtz from flanking fire.
What a challenging game.


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Post #: 4
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/21/2014 2:12:52 AM   
mh1066

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 5/11/2012
Status: offline 		Granted, it is all a matter of taste, but I personally found these tower defense type scenarios the least interesting (a similar one shows up a little later in the campaign, I believe it was called Hedgehog). I ended up just turning down the difficulty from Hard to Intro just to get through it quickly. If there was a "skip this one" option I would have selected it. I'm sure others have a different opinion however.

(in reply to laska2k8)
Post #: 5
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/21/2014 2:14:47 AM   
Tom Proudfoot


Posts: 1357
Joined: 4/25/2000
From: Alameda, CA
Status: offline 		Just FYI, I think Hedgehog is probably the hardest scenario in the game. Easy street from now on for you!

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Post #: 6
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/21/2014 2:43:32 AM   
mh1066

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 5/11/2012
Status: offline 		Frustration is exacerbated since the pre-phase doesn't allow you to button-up the tanks during setup and the first impulse always hits the exposed crew with small arms fire.

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Post #: 7
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/21/2014 2:54:42 AM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline

quote:

I ended up just turning down the difficulty from Hard to Intro just to get through it quickly. If there was a "skip this one" option I would have selected it.


Thanks mh1066, as I agree not my favorite type and frustrating after several tries and not able to succeed. I want to move on so will try what you did.

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JRR

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Post #: 8
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/22/2014 11:33:14 PM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline 		This scenario " the human wave" on hard settings can only be won ..if two conditions are met.

1) you do everything absolutely right

2) you get good dice rolls.

If you get some bad dice rolls or the soviets generate a couple heros you lose. The heros can rally shaken squads. I fired on one stack of three squads and generated two heros in one hex. Game over right there. Without hero generation the scenario would be balanced. With hero generation...you are gonna have a lot of problems ...as the shaken squads dont have to retreat far. Just to the nearest hero. Also the heros 6mp can lock up a stack of your troops very easily in melee. Once engaged in melee...its all over for that stack. If you get one of those heros that double the range of the squads stacked with him..you can just forget about any retreating.

On the up side the AI played better in this scenario than any other scenarios I've played so far.

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Post #: 9
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 1:26:12 AM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline 		-snip-

< Message edited by jonj01 -- 2/23/2014 2:52:23 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 2:02:24 AM   
mh1066

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 5/11/2012
Status: offline 		Scenarios such as this one do not show the impulse driven system of LnL in the best light. As the system is designed, MGs are one-off use support weapons which is contrary to how they would tend to be used. MGs (certainly one mounted on a tripod) would be placed to create fire lanes and kill zones. So for example a MG firing down a street (or as the case the "Wave" scenario an open field) wouldn't really target one spot, but rather a zone killing anything that passed into it. For all the advantages an impulse system like LnL provides, its weakness is how you can game the system with tactics that are not always realistic (such as feeding units piecemeal across a zone to soak up an opponent's impulse activations). In the game mortars and artillery leave residual fire effects causing potential damage for others entering the hex...perhaps adding this for MG fire would mitigate the one-off effect. Or another possibility could be to use the rally phase to establish a fire lane with a tripod mounted MG.

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Post #: 11
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 2:30:19 AM   
Gizuria


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/6/2012
Status: offline
quote:

A turn-based game, Heroes of Stalingrad retains Lock 'n Load's engaging impulse system while adding features, such as flanking fire, hidden units, and residual machine gun fire, that would just be too fiddly for the boardgame.


From the product page, it would appear that the computer version is supposed to have MG residual fire but I don't see it in the game yet. It's true that I'm still fresh with this game and have maybe missed it, not examining the options at the bottom careffully enough when I'm playing. Maybe we'll see it in the game at some point soon if we remind Mark about it

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Post #: 12
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 2:49:59 AM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3065
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: offline 		Well there is a card for it, I think Slayer. Once fired the SMC will lay a residual fire counter where any unit that moves into that hex or adjacent is subject to another attack as long as the SMC makes a check on their rally value. It is a great card when used at the right place. Bottlenecks turn deadly.

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Post #: 13
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 2:56:38 AM   
Gizuria


Posts: 199
Joined: 4/6/2012
Status: offline 		You are probably right there. But in all my games so far, I've only seen the Slayer card appear once. I wonder if it would be possible to give the MG SW team, NOT the SW counter, a capability similar to that possessed by the Mortar SW team, to put down a Fire for Effect counter in the hex.

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Post #: 14
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 4:10:32 AM   
mh1066

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 5/11/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Well there is a card for it, I think Slayer. Once fired the SMC will lay a residual fire counter where any unit that moves into that hex or adjacent is subject to another attack as long as the SMC makes a check on their rally value. It is a great card when used at the right place. Bottlenecks turn deadly.


Exactly, and think about it - one guy (hero though he be...) with a SMG is able to create a better killing zone than a mounted MG which shoots once for his impulse and then takes a nap!

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Post #: 15
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 10:31:25 AM   
markhwalker


Posts: 951
Joined: 1/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If you get some bad dice rolls or the soviets generate a couple heros you lose.


It's difficult, but I don't think this is true. I could have given the card to a half-squad if it would have let everyone sleep better at night.

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Post #: 16
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 4:49:11 PM   
Gargoil

 

Posts: 389
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

quote:

If you get some bad dice rolls or the soviets generate a couple heros you lose.


It's difficult, but I don't think this is true. I could have given the card to a half-squad if it would have let everyone sleep better at night.


I do feel heroes are quite powerful in this game. One hero that finds a way to dive into that key enemy hex with their main fire base will shut it down for the entire turn, as well as maybe taking down one of its squads. But, in any case, I got thru the Human Wave on my 4th try. I retired to the fox holes turn 1, except for the slayer and the one forward squad on the right. Then I squeezed the Soviets between FFEs and Slayer for a couple of turns, and just outlasted the rest, only having Wurtz and HMG at the end.

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Post #: 17
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 9:10:20 PM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline 		The "one last time" skill card is a killer if one of the many soviet heros draw that card.
In one attempt last night I had well over 20 soviet units 'shaken" and it looked like I would win the scenario on hard setting. But on turn 5 I fired into a hex of two soviet squads...broke one and generated a hero whose skill card was "one last time".

The next soviet rally phase took four minutes and I was pretty sure most of the squads got 2 not 1 rally attempt(might want to check this for a bug). 18 soviet units, some adjacent to my defensive positions...rallied.

As soon as you see this skill card appear for the soviets...just concede...it will save you some headache.

(in reply to markhwalker)
Post #: 18
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/23/2014 11:28:42 PM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline 		This scenario is now deleted from my map folder. There are two soviet heros on the field at ALL TIME. There would be more ...but you cant have more than two on the map at a time. This scenario generates a lot of soviet heros.
In this scenario, The soviet heros are like heads on the hydra...as soon as you kill one, another pops up and half of those you generate have a firepower of 2. So a complete crap squad with a moral of 4 and a firepower of 1 can generate a hero who cant shake and has a firepower of 2. As far as I can tell wounding them doesnt do a thing to them except place them one step closer to elimination.

Played the scenrario on Introductory setting and by the time the scenario was over I had killed 12 yes thats right 12 soviet hereos and 44 thats right 44 soviet squads. 12 heros 44 squads vs 5 squads and a hero is not balanced. The machine guns are useless as the impulse system has no penetrating fire. ASL has a similar scenario "The hedhog of Piepsk" but that is 32 squads vs 8 and you have penetrating fire to help and the soviets have to cover a much greater distance.

Screw this scenario...you shouldnt have to get a ton of good rolls to win a scenario. And you shouldn't automatically lose if your one super hero gets killed.

Bad Bad Badly balanced scenario. If the designers point was to make the player play the scenerios of a campaign several time.. good job you have.

Delete it from your map folder ...not only is it unbalanced...its boring...all you do the whole game is press the pass button and listen to some 500 soviet soldiers running.



< Message edited by jonj01 -- 2/24/2014 12:51:32 AM >

(in reply to jonj01)
Post #: 19
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 12:38:37 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonj01

...
Played the scenrario on Introductory setting and by the time the scenario was over I had killed 12 yes thats right 12 soviet hereos and 44 thats right 44 soviet squads. ...



Why are you killing so many soviet squads? All you have to do is shake them.
Kill leaders and heroes but don't bother firing at shaken squads.

If you are firing a lot at shaken squads then yes, your chances of creating a hero are going to go way up, and you will make the scenario harder than it is.


_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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Post #: 20
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 2:22:31 AM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline
quote:

This scenario is now deleted from my map folder.


Does deleteimg this scenario allow you to go on to the next scenario in the campaign?

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Post #: 21
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 2:27:01 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

quote:

This scenario is now deleted from my map folder.


Does deleteimg this scenario allow you to go on to the next scenario in the campaign?


Doubt it....

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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Post #: 22
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 2:28:45 AM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline 		"There is a chance that a Hero is created during
play whenever a Squad or Half-squad (even if Shaken) rolls a
1 during a Damage Check caused by enemy
fire." LnL manual

put an 50% chance on that and you have a 1/12 or 8.3% chance of generating a hero every time a soviet unit takes a damage check.

So every time you do a damage check on any unit...ANY multiman UNIT...you have about a 9% chance to create a hero. Assuming you break or cause damage to a unit about half the time you get a damage check and there are 44 russian squads in this scenario, about 15% will rally, and another 15% will turn into a half squad. Thats about 120 damage checks...doing the math...it produces 10 freakin heros for the russians...10 heros...with average rolls.

And Sometimes you dont just have to shake them. 4 times I've played this scenario, a hero has been generated that has the "one more time" skill card. This hero magically rallies almost every shaken squad on the map. The numbers in this scenario are messed up. Take a look at the map in the scenario editor. There's almost 50 russians squads (3 of which are assault squads with a morale of 6 and firepower 2 and can assault move)4 leaders, 2 heavy machine guns, a light machine gun and a nurse AND 6-10 HEROS VS 4 squads, 4 machine guns, 2 leaders and a hero. Those are the numbers... 10 to 1

Seems balanced to me....if this was a multiperson game...I know which side I'm taking.

< Message edited by jonj01 -- 2/24/2014 3:57:56 AM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 2:35:18 AM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

Does deleteimg this scenario allow you to go on to the next scenario in the campaign?


Just go into the scenario editor, load GCamp03 (from the map folder)...hit f2....and place whatever extra help you want on the board...save the file under GCamp03...then reload the campaign from the end of "Open(ing) the Door" and there you have a more balanced scenario, regardless of whatever extra help you placed...your arm will get tired before you place anywhere near as many squads as the russians have.

This is a game for enjoyment not punishment.

< Message edited by jonj01 -- 2/24/2014 3:45:07 AM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 2:46:26 AM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonj01


quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

Does deleteimg this scenario allow you to go on to the next scenario in the campaign?


Just go into the scenario editor, load GCcamp03...hit f2....and place whatever extra help you want on the board......


Thanks, just wondered. Think I'll just go back to playing the SP scenarios. I tried this scenario on intro level about 5 or 6 times without success and have lost interest.

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Post #: 25
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 2:50:40 AM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777




Thanks, just wondered. Think I'll just go back to playing the SP scenarios. I tried this scenario on intro level about 5 or 6 times without success and have lost interest.


This is why you don't configure a 10 to 1 odds scenario...people get frustrated and lose interest. This guy is going back to playing Steel Panthers...

< Message edited by jonj01 -- 2/24/2014 3:55:58 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 3:03:08 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonj01

...
about 15% will rally, and another 15% will turn into a half squad.
...


Not sure what you are saying here or where these percentages come from... if it turns into a 1/2 squad, it's still shaken until rallied.

Any squad that is shaken can only rally if it's with a leader, nurse or hero. There are 4 leaders, a nurse and any heroes that get created.
In all the games of this scenario I've played, and that's a lot because I was in the alpha and beta testing, the nurse is barely effective.
The leaders usually stay near the back so the only way squads can get rallied is to move back to them.
A leader can only rally 3 squads per turn. Not all the leaders start on the map on turn 1.
If a leader dares to come forward then you try to kill it. If it's on a stack of shaken units use your hero to run over and melee them... they will all die.

If you just shake most of the squads and not try to kill them there aren't that many that are going to pose much of a problem.
On average I get about 4 heroes generated in a scenario. I think I saw 6 in on go through... and I lost that one.

Not trying to argue with you, just trying to point out that the scenario is doable, and deleting it is a bit un-reasonable.
No it's not balanced as a two player scenario.
It's setup as a single player scenario with the Russians rushing headlong into your gun fire.

Yes the "One more time" skill card is tough and I usually lose when it comes up, but I've only seen it in this scenario a couple of times.... maybe because I don't see that many heroes...

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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Post #: 27
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 3:13:04 AM   
jonj01

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 2/21/2014
Status: offline 		If you let the heros live...you generate less..as the scenario has a limit of 2 on the board at any time(i think). I dont fire on shaken squads unless there is a good squad in the same hex. And my arty is really effective as a pop them from the get go...although I might change this tactic as it always generates at least a hero when I attack 3 full stacks of them.

You yourself Barthheart said it takes a few times to get past this scenario. And you are a A-B tester.

And the fact you can do everything right and lose due to a single skill card is plain bull.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 28
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 4:44:15 AM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jonj01


quote:

people get frustrated and lose interest. This guy is going back to playing Steel Panthers...


I meant I was going Back to playing Single Player scenarios, and not the campaign ones as the german player (did not mean steel panthers). I am merely frustrated with my inability to get past this scenario and thereby continue with the campaign game. I still enjoy the game system immensely, and look forward to user created scenarios. Would be nice to have a way to move forward with the campain even if you lose a scenario.

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Post #: 29
RE: Human wave failed attempt #9 - 2/24/2014 10:22:12 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Have you guys tried the Russian campaign?

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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Post #: 30
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