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RE: Renaming Air Counters

 
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RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/2/2014 5:58:05 PM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

There's only one way to get a definitive, 100% factual answer. I'll watch Pearl Harbor tonight and let you know.

We all know exactly what you will be watching.




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“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
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Post #: 31
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/2/2014 6:05:04 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

There's only one way to get a definitive, 100% factual answer. I'll watch Pearl Harbor tonight and let you know.

We all know exactly what you will be watching.



warspite1

For the avoidance of doubt I wish to confirm that was a joke. I would have more chance of finding out what took place on December 7th 1941 if I watched Barney The Dinosaur


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 32
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/3/2014 7:48:05 AM   
Greyshaft


Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Barney the Dinosaur? Dang it all now I remember that he spoke with a funny accent. So he was the spy after all ... I had always thought it was Colonel Mustard in the library with the atomic bomb.

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/Greyshaft

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Post #: 33
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/3/2014 6:31:15 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		No it was Dr. Pepper in the garden with the rubber hose. Then they talked...

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Post #: 34
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/3/2014 7:26:41 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So just to be clear - these changes DEFINITELY do not give the games problems (it really doesn't need anymore)?

The air unit names are used to determine lend lease groups. There are a maximum of 70 lend lease groups (the actual number is probably far less). But the first 8 in the list are special since there are alternative names, as shown below.

Besides the first 8, if you change the name of any of the lend lease air units, or their matching LENT air units (from the source country), then the program will not be able to identify them as being members of the same lend lease group. Basically the names are used to determine which units belong to a lend lease group. See page 203 of the Players Manual volume 2 too. The last data field for air units is the source country striped/lend leased air units' source country. The names of the air units tie all the members of a group together.

---
// ****************************************************************************
procedure TUnitTable.BuildLendLeaseGroups;
// ****************************************************************************
// Define the air unit lend lease groups.
// ****************************************************************************
var
AU: TAirUnit;
UnitIndex: Integer; // Index into Units
LLGroupIndex: Integer; // Index into LendLeaseGroupNames
Unique: Boolean; // Whether a lend lease air unit has a unique name
ASWType: Boolean; // Whether the air unit is a subhunter or not
Found: Boolean; // Used in search for lend lease name
begin
LendLeaseGroupNames[1] := rsBF109E2;
LendLeaseGroupNames[2] := rsFW190D2;
LendLeaseGroupNames[3] := rsC47Skytrain;
LendLeaseGroupNames[4] := rsA20ABostonI;
LendLeaseGroupNames[5] := rsP36AMohawk;
LendLeaseGroupNames[6] := rsP40CTomahawk;
LendLeaseGroupNames[7] := rsP40EKittyhawk;
LendLeaseGroupNames[8] := rsP40FKittyhawk;

AltLendLeaseGroupNames[1] := rsBF109E2Emil; // 1st 8 have alternative names
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[2] := rsFW190;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[3] := rsC47Dakota;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[4] := rsDB7BostonI;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[5] := rsP36AHawk75A;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[6] := rsP40CHawk81A;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[7] := rsP40EHawk87C;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[8] := rsP40FHawk87D;

LendLeaseGroupCount := 8;
---

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 35
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/3/2014 11:29:46 PM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So just to be clear - these changes DEFINITELY do not give the games problems (it really doesn't need anymore)?

The air unit names are used to determine lend lease groups. There are a maximum of 70 lend lease groups (the actual number is probably far less). But the first 8 in the list are special since there are alternative names, as shown below.

Besides the first 8, if you change the name of any of the lend lease air units, or their matching LENT air units (from the source country), then the program will not be able to identify them as being members of the same lend lease group. Basically the names are used to determine which units belong to a lend lease group. See page 203 of the Players Manual volume 2 too. The last data field for air units is the source country striped/lend leased air units' source country. The names of the air units tie all the members of a group together.

---
// ****************************************************************************
procedure TUnitTable.BuildLendLeaseGroups;
// ****************************************************************************
// Define the air unit lend lease groups.
// ****************************************************************************
var
AU: TAirUnit;
UnitIndex: Integer; // Index into Units
LLGroupIndex: Integer; // Index into LendLeaseGroupNames
Unique: Boolean; // Whether a lend lease air unit has a unique name
ASWType: Boolean; // Whether the air unit is a subhunter or not
Found: Boolean; // Used in search for lend lease name
begin
LendLeaseGroupNames[1] := rsBF109E2;
LendLeaseGroupNames[2] := rsFW190D2;
LendLeaseGroupNames[3] := rsC47Skytrain;
LendLeaseGroupNames[4] := rsA20ABostonI;
LendLeaseGroupNames[5] := rsP36AMohawk;
LendLeaseGroupNames[6] := rsP40CTomahawk;
LendLeaseGroupNames[7] := rsP40EKittyhawk;
LendLeaseGroupNames[8] := rsP40FKittyhawk;

AltLendLeaseGroupNames[1] := rsBF109E2Emil; // 1st 8 have alternative names
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[2] := rsFW190;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[3] := rsC47Dakota;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[4] := rsDB7BostonI;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[5] := rsP36AHawk75A;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[6] := rsP40CHawk81A;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[7] := rsP40EHawk87C;
AltLendLeaseGroupNames[8] := rsP40FHawk87D;

LendLeaseGroupCount := 8;
---

What is a way to identify the Lend Lease aircraft units in the excel file?


_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 36
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/3/2014 11:48:17 PM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline 		I can identify lend lease aircraft in game using the 1943 and 1944 scenarios. Any aircraft that might be possible for dates of 1945 and later for the allies and 1944 or later for the axis are unknown so far.

Does the excel file have an identifier that makes finding them quicker? If only to avoid renaming them.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 37
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/22/2014 8:53:02 PM   
Guzz


Posts: 19
Joined: 12/29/2013
From: Plymouth, UK
Status: offline 		War Hunter, I'd like to see the Japanese air units with their allied code names on them.
Val, Kate, Zeke etc.
Is that something you could do please?

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 38
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/23/2014 11:50:51 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Guzz

War Hunter, I'd like to see the Japanese air units with their allied code names on them.
Val, Kate, Zeke etc.
Is that something you could do please?

warspite1

Guzz - like it

BTW it seems from what Steve says that changing the names may affect the game - best to steer clear


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 39
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/23/2014 2:12:33 PM   
Guzz


Posts: 19
Joined: 12/29/2013
From: Plymouth, UK
Status: offline 		Fingers crossed WarHunter can get a workaround up and running.
I think the Jap codenames would add a real feel for their units.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 40
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/23/2014 3:02:00 PM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Guzz

War Hunter, I'd like to see the Japanese air units with their allied code names on them.
Val, Kate, Zeke etc.
Is that something you could do please?


Greetings Guzz,

I think this particular request is doable. The Japanese don't have any Lead Lease aircraft to mess with. That alone makes renaming alot easier than any nation with Lend Lease. As we can only play solo this should be workable.

Right now i have 3 versions of the game setup on my machine. MWiF no mods, MWiF with no terrain mods, MWiF with every Mod from this forum.

When i do feel like playing some solo, I'll fire up my fully modded game and play. So far no problems related to renamed land or air units. (what few i have done)
The real test will be netplay. When it becomes active we'll have a chance to see what a modded game on one machine will do with a no-modded game on another machine. Not so concerned about graphic mods as i am about renamed land and air units. Pretty much why the no-modded game is there on the machine. In case something don't match.
We just won't know til then, will we. For solo play all seems ok for me.

Give me a few days, a week or so to see what can be worked up for you. I just have to be extra careful in how i rename.

_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Guzz)
Post #: 41
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/23/2014 5:48:00 PM   
Guzz


Posts: 19
Joined: 12/29/2013
From: Plymouth, UK
Status: offline 		I'm looking forward to them WarHunter.
I thought I'd help you save some 'look up' time with a list of Jap planes/codenames taken from the book 'Axis aircraft of WW2' (author: David Mondey):

Aichi B7A Ryusei - 'Grace'
Aichi D3A - 'Val'
Aichi E13A floatplane - 'Jake'
Aichi E16A1 Zuiun floatplane - 'Paul'

Kawanishi E7K floatplane - 'Alf'
Kawanishi H6K seaplane - 'Tillie'
Kawanishi H8K seaplane - 'Emily'
Kawanishi N1K Kyofu floatplane - 'Rex'
Kawanishi N1K1 and N1K2-J shiden - 'George'

Kawasaki Ki-10 - 'Perry'
Kawasaki Ki-32 - 'Mary'
Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu - 'Nick'
Kawasaki Ki-48 - 'Lily'
Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien - 'Tony'
Kawasaki Ki-102 - 'Randy'

Kyushu Q1W Tokai - 'Lorna'

Mitsubishi A5M - 'Claude'
Mitsubishi A6M Zero-Sen - ' Zeke' (commonly known as 'Zero')
Mitsubishi G3M - 'Nell'
Mitsubishi G4M - 'Betty'
Mitsubishi J2M Raiden - 'Jack'
Mitsubishi Ki-15 - 'Babs'
Mitsubishi Ki-21 - 'Sally'
Mitsubishi Ki-30 - 'Ann'
Mitsubishi Ki-46 - Dinah'
Mitsubishi Ki-51 - 'Sonia'
Mitsubishi Ki-57 - 'Topsy'
Mitsubishi Ki-67 Hiryu - 'Peggy'

Nakajima A6M2-N floatplane - 'Rufe'
Nakajima B5N - 'Kate'
Nakajima B6N Tenzan - 'Jill'
Nakajima C6N Saium - 'Myrt'
Nakajima J1N Gekko - 'Irving'
Nakajima Ki-27 - 'Nate'
Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa - 'Oscar'
Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki - 'Tojo'
Nakajima Ki-49 - 'Helen'
Nakajima Ki-84 - 'Frank'

Tachikawa Ki-36 and Ki-55 - 'Ida'
Tachikawa Ki-54 - 'Hickory'

Yokosuka D4Y Suisei - 'Judy'
Yokosuka K5Y - 'Willow'
Yokosuka P1Y Ginga - 'Frances'

I'm not sure if all those are in the game's force pool or not but that's all the aircraft in Mondey's book covered.
I think fighters were given male codenames and bombers were female.

Here is a Wikki link too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_Allied_names_for_Japanese_aircraft

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 42
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/23/2014 11:38:34 PM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline 		Guzz,
Thanks for the help in looking for the names you want on the counters.

_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Guzz)
Post #: 43
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/24/2014 12:53:55 AM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline 		Looks like i made better progress than predicted. Let me know if this is acceptable. If you want any changes just point them out.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Guzz)
Post #: 44
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/24/2014 5:32:14 AM   
Guzz


Posts: 19
Joined: 12/29/2013
From: Plymouth, UK
Status: offline 		Very nice work WarHunter.
Thank you very much for your time on this.

I'm wondering how the units would look with their original designation but with their codename added in 'abbreviation marks'?
Space might be tight on some of the units, especially the land bombers, but if at all possible I'd like to see how they look with the codename as an addition rather than a replacement.

Excellent start though.

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 45
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/24/2014 9:57:46 AM   
Cataphract88


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/5/2012
From: Britannia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Guzz

Very nice work WarHunter.
Thank you very much for your time on this.

I'm wondering how the units would look with their original designation but with their codename added in 'abbreviation marks'?
Space might be tight on some of the units, especially the land bombers, but if at all possible I'd like to see how they look with the codename as an addition rather than a replacement.

Excellent start though.


These look great WarHunter; I like Guzz's idea above as well.


_____________________________

Richard

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Post #: 46
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/25/2014 4:12:21 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		lol

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Post #: 47
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/25/2014 6:07:06 AM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Guzz

Very nice work WarHunter.
Thank you very much for your time on this.

I'm wondering how the units would look with their original designation but with their codename added in 'abbreviation marks'?
Space might be tight on some of the units, especially the land bombers, but if at all possible I'd like to see how they look with the codename as an addition rather than a replacement.

Excellent start though.

Guessing you are looking at something more along the lines of this?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Guzz)
Post #: 48
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/25/2014 1:51:12 PM   
Guzz


Posts: 19
Joined: 12/29/2013
From: Plymouth, UK
Status: offline 		Hey pretty sweet WarHunter.
Good work fella.
I think it definately works better with both manufacturer designation and codename on the unit.

Being ultra picky and perfectionist the codename would benefit being centered directly between the aircraft and it's yellow range circle.
Also a couple of the dive bombers would look better with the codename in the top left.....Val and the carrier based Judy.

But I don't wanna appear ungrateful WH as they're looking very nice.
Real cool.
Thanks for doing it.


(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 49
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/25/2014 2:29:28 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Are you sure about your Japanese names

Japanese family names are first and the indiviual persons name is second.

I would not use the carrier name on the counters because you are not limited to placing the CVP on that carrier. Though it is interesting for historical purposes.

For the Purists ~ My post #7



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 2/25/2014 3:42:17 PM >

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Guzz)
Post #: 50
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/25/2014 3:00:42 PM   
Guzz


Posts: 19
Joined: 12/29/2013
From: Plymouth, UK
Status: offline 		Sorry Extraneous, I don't follow what you mean there bud.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 51
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/25/2014 3:43:05 PM   
Cataphract88


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/5/2012
From: Britannia
Status: offline 		It's looking great, WarHunter.

_____________________________

Richard

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Post #: 52
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/25/2014 11:24:31 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		The use of 1st CV Div.

The Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) 1st Carrier division consisted of:
April 1, 1928 - Akagi and Hosho
December 1, 1931 - Kaga and Notoro
November 15, 1934 - Hosho and Ryuho
December 1, 1937 - Kaga
November 15, 1939 - Akagi
April 10, 1941 - Akagi and Kaga
July 14, 1942 - Shokaku, Zuikaku, and Zuiho
April 1, 1944 - Taiho, Shokaku, Zuikaku
August 15, 1944 - Amagi and Unryu
December 15, 1944 - Amagi, Junyo, Katsuragi, Ryuho, and Unryu
April 10, 1945 - Dissolved

Nagumo is being used for a CVP name?


While Warspite is very good on the other navies. He has not researched the IJN quite as well as the others.

D3A1 – Chihaya - Akagi ~ Should be D3A1 - Takehiko (Chihaya is his first name) - Akagi
A6M2 – Sato - Kaga ~ Should be A6M2 - Masao (Sato is his first name) - Kaga


A good information site for the IJN.

Combined Fleet

Combined Fleet ~ Kido Butai (Mobile Strike Force) Tabular Records of Movement



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

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Post #: 53
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/26/2014 7:01:42 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

While Warspite is very good on the other navies. He has not researched the IJN quite as well as the others.

D3A1 – Chihaya - Akagi ~ Should be D3A1 - Takehiko (Chihaya is his first name) - Akagi
A6M2 – Sato - Kaga ~ Should be A6M2 - Masao (Sato is his first name) - Kaga


warspite1

Hi Extraneous. My source for these names was Shattered Sword (Parshall & Tully) Potomac Books.

All names were laid out in the same way and I took the "first" name as the surname in each and every case. I would be surprised if Shattered Sword was wrong but having said that, I have not cross referenced with any other source so clearly it might be.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 54
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/26/2014 8:42:54 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Example

quote:

ORIGINAL: My post
Carrier Akagi (CV)
High altitude Bombing Group First Wave Cmdr. Fuchida Mitsuo (Three groups of 5 aircraft)


Commander Mitsuo Fuchida is best known for leading the first wave of attacks on Pearl Harbor.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

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Post #: 55
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/26/2014 8:44:03 AM   
Finarfïn


Posts: 145
Joined: 12/23/2013
Status: offline 		hey warhunter,

i'll check this but from the depth of my memory ;p :

ki-15 is the Army version of C5M whose's code name is babs, not sure but if i remember right it was one of those planes which detected PoW and Repulse.

Code for A6M2-N (hydroplane version of zero) was rufe.

Ki 100 don't received any code name, but as it was a ki61 cell with a radial engine maybe it's correct.

Friendly Fin








(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 56
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/26/2014 4:49:47 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Guzz

Hey pretty sweet WarHunter.
Good work fella.
I think it definately works better with both manufacturer designation and codename on the unit.

Being ultra picky and perfectionist the codename would benefit being centered directly between the aircraft and it's yellow range circle.
Also a couple of the dive bombers would look better with the codename in the top left.....Val and the carrier based Judy.

But I don't wanna appear ungrateful WH as they're looking very nice.
Real cool.
Thanks for doing it.



The program positions the placement of the names based on the type of air unit. For example, fighters have a horizontal profile so part of the name is top center and the second part is left justified below the plane image. Naval air have a slanted image with the range or the right, so the second part of their names can go on the bottom. The image for bombers dictates that the name is left justified in the middle and at the bottom. And so on.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Guzz)
Post #: 57
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/26/2014 5:20:22 PM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline 		Everything posted in this thread have been examples of possible renaming. Nothing is written in stone. This particular mod, (As a request for Guzz and anyone else that feels brave), is just for the Japanese air counters. It's being made with as little editing as possible on the excel file.

Some names will not be renamed among the air units. Two have been identified by Finarfïn. A6M2-N & Ki-15. Better to leave these in default rather than mess with them. Another aircraft that will not be renamed, J7W2 Shinden. Have messed with them, but at the end of the day they go back to the original.

Ki 100 Never had its own unique codename. Was mis-identified as a 'Tony'. Decided that was OK for the mod. The only other name i took liberty with was this one Ki-109 'UFO'.

Artistically could spend time centering all the aircraft names. But it would be folly as the amount of time used could be better used drinking beer. St' Patrick's day around the corner.

Renaming all air units is not feasible. I don't mind working with requests. When i have time i work on my renamed air-unit mod for private use. That will not be finished for some time. And only after some real game testing.

Almost done with this. Will post screen shots later.

_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 58
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/26/2014 6:00:12 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Example

quote:

ORIGINAL: My post
Carrier Akagi (CV)
High altitude Bombing Group First Wave Cmdr. Fuchida Mitsuo (Three groups of 5 aircraft)


Commander Mitsuo Fuchida is best known for leading the first wave of attacks on Pearl Harbor.



Shattered Sword is one of the few (western) books about the Japanese in WWII that used the Japanese style of naming, which is given name last and surname first - the reverse of how we do it in North America and Europe.

Both are right. Only the convention used in writing them differs.

---------------------
derynckpaul

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 59
RE: Renaming Air Counters - 2/26/2014 7:25:36 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Example

quote:

ORIGINAL: My post
Carrier Akagi (CV)
High altitude Bombing Group First Wave Cmdr. Fuchida Mitsuo (Three groups of 5 aircraft)


Commander Mitsuo Fuchida is best known for leading the first wave of attacks on Pearl Harbor.



Shattered Sword is one of the few (western) books about the Japanese in WWII that used the Japanese style of naming, which is given name last and surname first - the reverse of how we do it in North America and Europe.

Both are right. Only the convention used in writing them differs.

---------------------
derynckpaul
warspite1

WarHunter, assuming Parshall and Tully have not got the names round the wrong way on just these two, then I would say choose which convention you want to use.

If you take the names as I set out, then fine. If you choose the way Extraneous has suggested, then all the other names I've given you will need to be amended to keep the convention consistent.

Let me know mate as I can look up the other name for each.


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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