Coordinated Attacks

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Coordinated Attacks

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Coordinated Attacks

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Coordinated Attacks - 2/23/2014 9:03:01 PM

3RTR_Trooper

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/18/2014
Status: offline

Getting to grips with the first Air Tutorial. Getting rid of the Migs presents very few problems, in half a dozen runs at that element I've only lost one of mine. Next phase is cripple the SAM defence. As has been mentioned elsewhere it isn't unthinkable for a SAM to take out a Shrike. So, I need to overwhelm their system(s). I plan to attack from three or four different angles around the compass, we'll say 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock.

The enemy radar coverage has given me a nice 30 mile diameter circle which I can use as a nice start line for the attacks. What I'd like to do is to tell the four aircraft to arrive at their designated positions at a certain time. Like, go to RP123 and arrive at 06:20 for aircraft one, RP124 at same time etc. Is this possible now or envisaged as a later inclusion?

Still having a great time with this. Wife is happy for the first time in 42 years as she doesn't see as much of me as she used too.

Kind Regards,

Cliff

Post #: 1

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/23/2014 10:20:06 PM

Werewolf13

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

Good POST!

This one too would like to know the answer to your very cogent question.

_____________________________

Freedom is not free! Nor should it be. For men being men will neither fight for nor value that which is free.

Michael Andress

(in reply to 3RTR_Trooper)

Post #: 2

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/23/2014 11:10:57 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Troop 553

Getting to grips with the first Air Tutorial. Getting rid of the Migs presents very few problems, in half a dozen runs at that element I've only lost one of mine. Next phase is cripple the SAM defence. As has been mentioned elsewhere it isn't unthinkable for a SAM to take out a Shrike. So, I need to overwhelm their system(s). I plan to attack from three or four different angles around the compass, we'll say 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock.

The enemy radar coverage has given me a nice 30 mile diameter circle which I can use as a nice start line for the attacks. What I'd like to do is to tell the four aircraft to arrive at their designated positions at a certain time. Like, go to RP123 and arrive at 06:20 for aircraft one, RP124 at same time etc. Is this possible now or envisaged as a later inclusion?

Still having a great time with this. Wife is happy for the first time in 42 years as she doesn't see as much of me as she used too.

Kind Regards,

Cliff

Hi Cliff

We don't have any time on target calculators although some players may be working on some spreadsheets.

We expect to have this functionality when we get to the strike editor which will be some time in the the future.

Mike

_____________________________

(in reply to 3RTR_Trooper)

Post #: 3

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 12:39:34 AM

mikeCK

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline

A strike editor would be fantastic. That would allow for a lot more coordination of attack.

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 4

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 1:21:36 AM

Werewolf13

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Troop 553

Getting to grips with the first Air Tutorial. Getting rid of the Migs presents very few problems, in half a dozen runs at that element I've only lost one of mine. Next phase is cripple the SAM defence. As has been mentioned elsewhere it isn't unthinkable for a SAM to take out a Shrike. So, I need to overwhelm their system(s). I plan to attack from three or four different angles around the compass, we'll say 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock.

The enemy radar coverage has given me a nice 30 mile diameter circle which I can use as a nice start line for the attacks. What I'd like to do is to tell the four aircraft to arrive at their designated positions at a certain time. Like, go to RP123 and arrive at 06:20 for aircraft one, RP124 at same time etc. Is this possible now or envisaged as a later inclusion?

Still having a great time with this. Wife is happy for the first time in 42 years as she doesn't see as much of me as she used too.

Kind Regards,

Cliff

Hi Cliff

We don't have any time on target calculators although some players may be working on some spreadsheets.

We expect to have this functionality when we get to the strike editor which will be some time in the the future.

Mike

Ever heard of a Flight Sim called Tornadoe (mid 90's IIRC). Best air ops planning tool built in to that thing ever. I believe that there were some militaries that actually either copied it or used the planner in the actual game to plan missions.

It was a great tool. Maybe y'all could get your hands on it - probably out of copyright by now - and do something similar.

_____________________________

Freedom is not free! Nor should it be. For men being men will neither fight for nor value that which is free.

Michael Andress

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 5

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 2:18:59 AM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

Yeah think we mentioned this in our first interviews. Looked good and actually worked.It will probably be a culmination of a number of good things we've seen over the years..

Thanks

Mike

_____________________________

(in reply to Werewolf13)

Post #: 6

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 6:22:20 AM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

Tornado's developers (DI) had stated in an interview that the sim's mission planner was the bit "that drove them absolutely lunatic" (quoting from memory). So not sure we want to emulate that development _too_ closely

_____________________________

Facebook
Twitter

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 7

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 9:45:05 AM

3RTR_Trooper

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/18/2014
Status: offline

If it's in the pipeline then that's fine. I'd like to be able to script the entire operation and sit back and watch it roll.

I recall in my Service life coming under a simulated air attack which hit our station from five different directions over a 20 second period. As I was watching one take out the taxiways and ATC another was on a convergent course giving the bomb dump a hard time. There must have been at least three aircraft within the base perimeter wire at any one time.

Post raid we talked about it and came to the conclusion that even the length of time the debris from the explosions was in the air must have been taken into account so approaching/departing attackers didn't fly into it. They say the secret of good comedy is timing. It's the same for air raids.

If it had been for real you wouldn't have had time to put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye

Kind Regards

Cliff

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 8

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 3:55:09 PM

NakedWeasel

Posts: 500
Joined: 1/14/2014
Status: offline

It's a very complex affair indeed. I don't do too much of it right now, but did a fair amount with Harpoon. For simplicity's sake, I just started with the impact time, and worked backward from there, primarily taking into account the various weapon(s) launch range, and flight time at nominal velocity. What mucks it up is what the launching platform does before launch. If engaged defensive, as it very well may be- the AC might not be ready to launch at the specified time.

Due to the complexities, and the lack of an editor, and the required micro-management (Which I detest), I just do it as easy as possible. I lob standoff/cruise missiles, follow up with UAV's and drones on the outer edge of SAM range, and Big Finish/jazz hands with a swarm attack. Losses are typical and expected. But this usually squashes the HVT.

Frankly, I also try to utilize a lot of Sun Tzu sneakiness into the affair- feint with what seems to be a big attack at some other distant point (typically with TALD/MALD, and standoff OECM,) while the strike package goes downtown. This is also a great opportunity to destroy a number of enemy interceptors with BVR AAMs. The trick here is to not get too distracted with the distraction, while the attackers are doing their business.

Good times!

< Message edited by NakedWeasel -- 2/24/2014 5:06:10 PM >

(in reply to 3RTR_Trooper)

Post #: 9

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 4:07:19 PM

Blu3wolf

Posts: 198
Joined: 9/30/2013
From: Western Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Troop 553

If it's in the pipeline then that's fine. I'd like to be able to script the entire operation and sit back and watch it roll.

I recall in my Service life coming under a simulated air attack which hit our station from five different directions over a 20 second period. As I was watching one take out the taxiways and ATC another was on a convergent course giving the bomb dump a hard time. There must have been at least three aircraft within the base perimeter wire at any one time.

Post raid we talked about it and came to the conclusion that even the length of time the debris from the explosions was in the air must have been taken into account so approaching/departing attackers didn't fly into it. They say the secret of good comedy is timing. It's the same for air raids.

If it had been for real you wouldn't have had time to put your head between your legs and kiss your arse goodbye

Kind Regards

Cliff

yup, frag avoidance is part of strike planning for real. Outlined in T.O. 1-1M-34 iirc.

that good timing includes your step time at the airfield, your engine start, your take off times, climb, push times, cruise, descent time, time on target, attack profile, everything... plus an alternate mission if you get airborne and the mission is cancelled!

_____________________________

To go up, pull back on the stick.
To go down, pull back harder...

Speed is life. Altitude is life insurance.

(in reply to 3RTR_Trooper)

Post #: 10

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 4:23:23 PM

ComDev

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

The strike mission editor will be implemented in baby steps after 1.03. Played DID Tornado to death in the 1990s so its a major inspiration hehe. Although it should probably be said that this much complexity works ok for a single 6-a/c strike, but not so sure it works well for 10 stacked multi-carrier Alpha strikes.

...although, that being said I'd love to have my 6-plane groups split up and attack from different directions, three pairs at 2 min separation, 20 sec separation between planes, in and out in 4 min 20 sec, then reformate and head home

But lets do the first step first

_____________________________

Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to Blu3wolf)

Post #: 11

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 4:33:04 PM

ComDev

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

Then again, if you have good suggestions for what a strike mission editor in Command should look like then please post up. We've already received great feedback from our fantastic beta testers, and have done some design work. Here is a message I posted in the Beta forum:

quote:

Simply put, an advanced�strike�mission�editor is extremely difficult to make, and there is a reason why the Harpoon-series doesn't have any of this - not even waypoint for missiles.

Creating a good�mission�planning tool that will handle 4 aircraft with waypoint navigation, time-on-target, speed/altitude changes, weapon allocation, aimpoint distribution, etc, is by itself a pretty complex job. But in Command you do not control 4 aircraft, you control as many as 400. The�mission�editor should therefore also be able to join various elements into larger�strike�packages, handle take-off, form-up and ToT for these, from multiple bases/carriers with varying distances to the targets. The�missionplanner would also have to do multiple stacked�strike�packages, each with multiple�missions, each�mission�with multiple aircraft and flight plans, each with its own nav/target waypoint times, speed/alt settings and weapon allocations.

Then go on to assign aircraft returning from a�strike�mission�to a�strike�mission�in the next�strike�package on the stack, handle reserves & replacements to compensate for losses, and do this for 10�strike�packages in a row. Then on top of that add in cruise missiles with their own flight plans.�400 aircraft, 10 stacked�strike�packages, 4 aircraft per�mission�is 1000�missions and 4000 flight plans, with 10 waypoints each that's 40000 (!) waypoints... I guess you catch my drift��

We've asked the community to partake in the design of the 'Advanced�Strike�Planner' but the response tends to subside once we start digging into the matter. Seems it is just too complex. If you have any thoughts on how a�mission�editor on this scale should look like, please post up. Please note that we have a pretty good idea of what the editor should be able to do on a grand scale. Its the itty-bitty details we're after. Drawings, figures, etc, are especially helpful.�

Oh and please check out this thread:�

http://www.warfaresims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11472�

_____________________________

Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 12

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/24/2014 6:26:16 PM

3RTR_Trooper

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/18/2014
Status: offline

OK, lets try to put a few of the worms back in the can and see what is left

As a start I'd just go for 'getting to the church on time'. You start from the target and work backwards. So, from there, it will probably be the run into target with an IP as the start line. This needs to have a head on aspect for the stand off weapon to acquire.

Lets start with just two attackers. Number one comes from the north, heading due south, and number two comes from the south, heading north. Their base is on a heading of 45 degrees from the target.

This means number one has the least distance to travel. Do we launch together or with a time interval? My vote is together, if they're both in the air then the runway is clear for later launches.

We put in way points for number two to get to its way point immediately before its IP. It needs time to get itself, the IP and the target all in a straight line.

The software calculates the distance which we will call 300nm. Next we do the same for number one. This one comes out at 135nm. I'm pulling these numbers out of the air by the way so no critique on the maths please.

We pair the aircraft up and head them about 210 degrees so they hit an imaginary circle with the target at its centre at around the 3 o'clock point. Number one turns and flies around the radius in an anti clockwise direction and number two clockwise.

I'm still pulling the numbers out of the air here. Theoretically, they both have the same distance to travel and only a small amount of speed adjustment will finally get them synchronised.

Well, that's two taken care of. Lets move onto 17 now

Kind Regards,

Cliff

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 13

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/25/2014 5:51:49 AM

ComDev

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

Understood, and it works ok for two aircraft flying from a single base with no coordination with other assets, no tankers, no stacked missions, no speed/alt/emcon changes, etc etc etc.

Sadly, it will not work in most other cases. So need to take everything into account and do a solid (code) design so that we don't have to go back and do a re-design every time we have to add more compexity. A fully working strike editor is probably minimum 2000 hours of work, so better take it slow and make it good

We'll start with the first baby step after 1.03 is out and the dust has settled

_____________________________

Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to 3RTR_Trooper)

Post #: 14

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/25/2014 8:49:47 AM

3RTR_Trooper

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/18/2014
Status: offline

If the raid goes in at the FEBA then that simplifies things a lot. However, plan a raid that hits deep into enemy territory and the the level of complication goes up through the roof. You could loose a good percentage of the force and still be miles away from the target.

This could turn into a simulation in its own right and have the resulting script imported into CMANO.

I think we either need a bigger can or a lot less worms.

Kind Regards,

Cliff

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 15

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/25/2014 5:58:21 PM

ComDev

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

Hehe guess the design work has shown that the can has to be very, very big. We'll start small though

_____________________________

Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to 3RTR_Trooper)

Post #: 16

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/25/2014 6:47:54 PM

SSN754planker

Posts: 448
Joined: 10/2/2013
Status: offline

quote:

This could turn into a simulation in its own right and have the resulting script imported into CMANO.

That is exactly how i am seeing it too. If done right and how we are dreaming about it. Maybe this could be an "addon" to offset the amount of hours the devs will have to put into it, on top of the regular game bug bashing.

_____________________________

MY BOOK LIST
ST1/SS SSN 754

(in reply to 3RTR_Trooper)

Post #: 17

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/26/2014 3:24:12 AM

ComDev

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

Think it should be integrated into th existing sim as making a second simulator with an interface would be just as much work if not more :)

_____________________________

Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to SSN754planker)

Post #: 18

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/26/2014 9:18:17 AM

Have

Posts: 54
Joined: 10/8/2009
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Sadly, it will not work in most other cases. So need to take everything into account and do a solid (code) design so that we don't have to go back and do a re-design every time we have to add more compexity. A fully working strike editor is probably minimum 2000 hours of work, so better take it slow and make it good

Ever thought about exposing some of the most important unit behaviour/AI as a script API? This way the community could fine tune and even completely change the exposed parts of the game. It could enable some really interesting things in the long run.

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 19

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/26/2014 9:43:30 AM

Gunner98

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline

I'm not a programmer so may be way off the mark here. It seems to me that; although complex it can be simplified by breaking it into various parts, and by using the Mission planner and Event editor which work well and are already in the game, it becomes more manageable. I think daisy chaining multiple missions as emsoy described is a bridge too far at the moment and if the 'strike planner' (or whatever it will be called) was limited to one strike at a time, it would mean that the players have a role in the game after the first setup

. So my thoughts:

Step 1: Mission planning as we do now, break the target into its components, assign aircraft and Emcon etc.
- An IP (initial point) needs to be added to the strike mission parameters, probably by using a Ref point, this will solve the approach angle issue, just assign different IP to different missions.
Step 2: Strike planning, the new interface bit where the player associates missions with the strike, assigns a TOT and assigns strike times based on that TOT i.e. Mission X @ TOT+4(min). Needs to include all missions like OECM, SEAD, tankers, Ftr sweeps, recce all keyed to the baseline timing. Surface to Surface strikes need to be included but the parameters would be slightly different.

Background work:
Target planner - this routine works out the target end details from the IP forward: Alt, wpn release times, time of flight etc: end result is a time at IP
Base management planner - This one does all the time calcs to get the A/C from the hanger to the IP (all good if you don't have to tank up)
Mission interface planner - This one is probably based on the current event editor and relates to all of the support missions, Tankers, OECM, Recce (pre & post strike) etc
Surface to Surface strike routine - a simple Time of Flight calculation to match the assigned TOT I think

Feedback loop: The player needs:
-To be told if TOT cannot be met by 'Mission X'
-To have a TOT adjustment tool, where he can change the TOT (slightly) and get feedback on the results (i.e. Mission, X, Y, Z cannot meet the TOT will be over target @, or Mission W needs to tank up etc)
-Be able to add or take aircraft away from the strike, probably through the mission planner as they can do now

So...400 A/C, 1 strike package, 4 A/C per mission - 100 missions, 1 waypoint, the IP for only the strike missions (the support AC have normal mission parameters, so patrol and support areas assigned in the mission planner), cruise missiles superimposed with a TOF routine.

Simple really

Like I said, I have no idea how tricky this is to program, but those are my thoughts.

B

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 20

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 2/28/2014 9:48:49 PM

CommanderNimitz

Posts: 4
Joined: 2/22/2014
Status: offline

I made a simple formula that can be used for making coordinated missile strikes. I'll post it here when I get home later.

< Message edited by CommanderNimitz -- 2/28/2014 10:50:02 PM >

(in reply to 3RTR_Trooper)

Post #: 21

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 3/1/2014 3:56:25 AM

CommanderNimitz

Posts: 4
Joined: 2/22/2014
Status: offline

Here it is: S = F x 60[(d/r)-(d1/r1)]

S=launch time of second missile (type)
F=launch time of first missile (type)
d=distance to target of first missile
d1=distance to target of second missile
r=speed of first missile
r1=speed of second missile

< Message edited by CommanderNimitz -- 3/1/2014 5:02:54 AM >

(in reply to CommanderNimitz)

Post #: 22

RE: Coordinated Attacks - 3/1/2014 3:07:12 PM

guanotwozero

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Tornado's developers (DI) had stated in an interview that the sim's mission planner was the bit "that drove them absolutely lunatic" (quoting from memory). So not sure we want to emulate that development _too_ closely

Not tried Tornado, though I was reasonably impressed with Falcon 4's mission planner. It really only handled a single formation at a time, though.

It strikes me that the main coordination part of a multi-formation strike planner will be relatively straightforward, albeit a ton of work. However, the tricky part will be how to cope with in-game events that affect components of the missions.

An example: four formations are flying from different bases to a RV point, whence they will sequence to the target. All four are needed to fully complete the mission. One of the formations encounters a threat while en route to the RV - what should happen?

Doubtless different players will have different opinions based on the relative threat level, importance of mission, ability to deal with threat, etc. Maybe the easiest way to handle it is just to alert the player and let them decide, but then that leaves the AI side without a response plan for such events.

So yeah, I can see it could be a tough one...

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 3/1/2014 4:10:11 PM >

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 23