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Was this incredibly lucky or a normal event in H2H?

 
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Was this incredibly lucky or a normal event in H2H? - 1/16/2003 1:20:54 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		My SS squad reaches the top of a low ridge. Low and behold, below them between 200 and 300 yards away are arrayed: an Achilles TD, a Stuart Recce, a Bren Carrier, a White 60mm Mortar Jeep and a Sherman V. Other than the Sherman these are open topped, well armored AFVs. Any "smart" SS squad would quickly run from this massed armor, right?

Well, being that I can't resist taking pot shots. I snap off a few rounds with the squad MG and BOOM, there goes the Bren Carrier. That seemed fun so another SS squad goes to the top of the ridge and starts shooting... BOOM, there goes the Stuart Recce. Since no one is firing back I move my PzIV onto the ridge and he proceeds to cause the crews of the Achilles and the White Jeep to bail, all without a Main Gun hit. The panzer even has enough rounds left to take a couple shots at another Bren that is 1000 yards away, bouncing an AP round off its armor. The only other thing left in site is the Sherman V.

Question: I know open topped vehicles are modeled in SPWAW, but is it really that much of an advantage to be able to fire from above at them? If so, then I'm going to try harder to get these high ground shots at open top vehicles. I can just imagine the MG rounds bouncing around inside the crew cabins as VikingNo2 watches the replay in dismay.:D

Has anyone else had this happen or was I lucky?
Post #: 1
- 1/16/2003 1:34:37 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Here's a scientific anwer to your questions, rbrunsman:

This was not a lucky event, it's totally normal to both H2H and the regular SP:WAW version. I will now prove this by two examples;

1) You were fighting the British

2) See 1)

q.e.d. :D :D :D

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Post #: 2
- 1/16/2003 2:45:54 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Yeah, this is pretty normal. It's not too uncommon that I'll find my recon is by necessity, of some sort, open-topped, or if I'm using HT's in an anti-personnel role to get open-topped mixed up with fully armored vehicles. Another thing that leads to the deception of getting hit by higher fire to open-topped vehicles is the reassurance you usually have with them. In other words, most of the time the anti-personnel role is so much of the time on the same level or with fully armored vehicles that one can be rudely surprised.

You can see the reverse work out for the GE forces if you purchase the SK222 and forego the 6 or 8/rads. It's probably a pretty rare bird in this forum who has experienced the later GE open-topped TD's getting destroyed by higher level small arms fire though. Imagine losing a Nashorn to small arms!

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Post #: 3
- 1/16/2003 3:12:45 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]Here's a scientific anwer to your questions, rbrunsman:

This was not a lucky event, it's totally normal to both H2H and the regular SP:WAW version. I will now prove this by two examples;

1) You were fighting the British

2) See 1)

q.e.d. :D :D :D [/B][/QUOTE]

LOL :D :D :D I love 'scientific' explanations.

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Post #: 4
- 1/16/2003 4:41:58 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Belisarius, of course! I should have figured that one out myself! Those poor Brits! LOL :D

My impression is that the Brits are just bad. This comes from fighting with them and against them. Does anyone seriously like fighting with them? They have some nice equipment it just doesn't seem to work too well IMHO.

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Post #: 5
- 1/16/2003 4:42:54 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		They are slightly more useful than ski-troops.

Goblin

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Post #: 6
- 1/16/2003 8:51:42 AM   
TheOverlord


Posts: 337
Joined: 11/13/2002
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		When the Brits are strapped to the outer armor of tanks, they stop the tink tink of small arms fire, and the screams dont last too long......otherwise I cant think of anything else to do with them.

:D :p :D

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Post #: 7
Depends - 1/16/2003 9:21:53 PM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]Belisarius, of course! I should have figured that one out myself! Those poor Brits! LOL :D

My impression is that the Brits are just bad. This comes from fighting with them and against them. Does anyone seriously like fighting with them? They have some nice equipment it just doesn't seem to work too well IMHO. [/B][/QUOTE]
The Brits are actually fun to use after 1/45. They get some really nice tanks, armored cars and Mechinized-AA. Their infantry still sucks but they also get some really nice aircraft and artillary. Besides that I generally never play them.
They also are not that bad early in the war due to the Mitilda.

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Post #: 8
- 1/16/2003 11:38:14 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]They are slightly more useful than ski-troops.

Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

DON'T REMIND ME!
:mad: ([SIZE=1]grumble, grumble[/SIZE]) Stupid Ski Troops cost me the WC...:mad:

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Post #: 9
He He - 1/17/2003 1:38:37 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]DON'T REMIND ME!
:mad: ([SIZE=1]grumble, grumble[/SIZE]) Stupid Ski Troops cost me the WC...:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah that was funny!!!:p :p :p

Wouldn't have anything to do with you bringing a Tiger to a infantry fight would it? :D

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Post #: 10
- 1/17/2003 2:13:39 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Gary, I'm still bitter and not talking to you!;)

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Post #: 11
UPDATE - 1/17/2003 1:54:20 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Those crews that bailed seem to have dusted themselves off and hopped back into their vehicles because that Stuart Recce and the Achilles have disappeared on me. I knew I should have finished off the crews.:mad:

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Post #: 12
- 1/17/2003 6:50:30 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		perhaps the british are modelled to weak in the game, in reality they were not THAT bad, even sometimes without american help they won battles..

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Post #: 13
- 1/18/2003 5:49:30 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank W.
[B]perhaps the british are modelled to weak in the game, in reality they were not THAT bad, even sometimes without american help they won battles.. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't believe you. I bet you're an expatriot Brit living in Germany.:D

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Post #: 14
- 1/18/2003 6:25:06 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		[I]Originally posted by Frank W.[/I]

[QUOTE]even sometimes without American help they won battles[/QUOTE]

Those must have actually been Canadian units :D !

Just kidding! I find that the Brits have some pretty good equipment, even mid war. Perhaps not first rate like the German stuff, but as the war goes on things improve ...

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Post #: 15
- 1/18/2003 7:31:43 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		It's all in the time period. ;)

If you pitch a U.S. force against a British one in '42, the Brits *SHOULD* come out on top, but in SP:WAW I'm not too sure... :p

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Post #: 16
- 1/18/2003 8:01:05 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		someone put up one of those funny AI vs. AI battles??

US vs. GB ?

i will do and report back !

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Post #: 17
- 1/18/2003 8:01:51 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]I don't believe you. I bet you're an expatriot Brit living in Germany.:D [/B][/QUOTE]

****.. my secret discovered :)

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Post #: 18
- 1/19/2003 7:31:22 AM   
Tutty

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 1/28/2002
Status: offline 		I enjoy playing with the Brits. Maybe I just like a good chalange! Though it is pretty frustrating putting a puny 2 pounder up against a Panzer III....

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Post #: 19
- 1/19/2003 9:25:03 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		try the CS tanks instead of 2pdr.

and 40mm AA not to forget...

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Post #: 20
- 1/19/2003 9:41:02 AM   
Karnaaj

 

Posts: 243
Joined: 3/17/2002
From: Spokane WA USA
Status: offline 		I always found that the Bren carriers are easy victims. Level-ground rifle fire can destroy 'em, from a 4-man recon squad, and get an MG hosing 'em, they're almost always gone before the second burst...

Ah, the SK 222 is open-topped? I was *wondering* what the hell was the problem. Seems that I lost one due to a top hit from an MP40 once... I was thinking that they "armoured" the sucker by putting a coat of wax on it.

Haven't really noticed any serious open-top losses in SP:WAW. The fun ones were in Close Combat II: A Bridge Too Far... my piddly little 50mm mortars would occasionally nail the Brit open-top flame/engineer tanks. VOOOSH! It was also fun if you could get enough hits (usually with 80mm, I'd espect - disremember at the mo') to collapse a building on top of the eight or so pinned infantry squads inside. Kinda made up for them getting one of those engineer tracks into line-of-sight and spigot-bombing my poor MG42 team into a fine red mist...

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Post #: 21
- 1/20/2003 12:56:45 AM   
Tutty

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 1/28/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]try the CS tanks instead of 2pdr.

and 40mm AA not to forget...[/QUOTE]

Yeah those 3in. howitzers really do help.

and yes, the 40mm AA is indeed my weapon of choice. No infantry is getting past that baby!

THe 290mm Spigot packs quite the wallop too!

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Post #: 22
- 2/2/2003 9:56:14 PM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline 		The British are modelled very poorly in most Steel Panthers games and derivatives.

Their infantry tended to be sturdy and fought well, their equipment was normally behind the German's until supplies from America started to come over in large quantities.

At the start of the war they were often poorly led, leading to some big disasters, but that was at the strategic level, nothing to do with the quality of the troops, which was better than the Americans until 1943, once American units had got sufficient experience (they came to fight the Germans in the Eurpean/North African theater over 2 years later than the first clashes between British and German troops).

In italy, North West Europe and eventually in the far East the British continued to fight well and made an important contribution to final victory. Britain was exhausted by its continuous war effort by then and infantry replacements were scarce.

A number of veteran divisions had lost their fighting edge because soldiers who had survived through 3 or four years of war felt they had done more than their fair share. Still ,they participated in a number of vital battles which they won at great cost and through efforts that were no less valiant than those of their American allies.

The animosity between Allies is well documented and due mostly to a few oversized egos at the top and the usual effect of the media distorting the truth to get controversy going and sell papers.

Americans did not take well to early British attitudes of condescension (a very British phenomenon, still alive these days when they have less and less justification), but that does not warrant the biased attitudes that lead to the belittlement of the British contribution to the Allied war effort, and are reflected in their poor representation in games such as SPWAW.

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Post #: 23
- 2/4/2003 10:19:03 PM   
Panzer Leo

 

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fabs
[B]The British are modelled very poorly in most Steel Panthers games and derivatives.
[/B][/QUOTE]

What should be modeled different ? Any hints on how to improve it ?

My experience with British troops was pretty good up to now...can't tell of special weaknesses...the infantry equipement in late war is not really the best, but troop quality and leadership is amongst the finest around...the Para's are good for some real tough battles...

...there's still some time left till the H2H patch comes out...enough time to do something on the UK...but I have to get input on what's wrong... :)

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Mir nach, ich folge euch !

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Post #: 24
- 2/5/2003 1:22:51 AM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline 		I'm referring to the morale and experience ratings. In most scenarios I have played they are lower than the German values, and I don't think that reflects reality.

Has anyone noticed how German gunners almost always hit first time, while Allied gunners can miss two or three times in a duel between tanks? And British units stop fighting the minute they are fired on, while German units continue to fight on regardless of the amount of fire they are exposed to?

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Post #: 25
- 2/5/2003 1:48:08 AM   
Panzer Leo

 

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fabs
[B]I'm referring to the morale and experience ratings. In most scenarios I have played they are lower than the German values, and I don't think that reflects reality.

Has anyone noticed how German gunners almost always hit first time, while Allied gunners can miss two or three times in a duel between tanks? And British units stop fighting the minute they are fired on, while German units continue to fight on regardless of the amount of fire they are exposed to? [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm...if scenarios are designed that way, I certainly can't do anything about it...I can only take a look at the default values for battle purchase and the UK does not look bad...in fact it looks pretty good...

Exp is 5 pts higher, Morale 5 pts lower and Leadership equally to German in '44...that makes both forces pretty equal...in '45 the British are definetely better then Germans (except for morale...it is the effect you described above)...also the British have a very good Fire Control for standard units (3), easily bipassing German infantry in '44 and '45...

And the tank fighting...well, I think it depends a lot on the guns involved, so I can't say much about that...the only thing I know is, that the British build the only larger caliber gun in noticable numbers equally in performence to it's German counterpart, the 17pdr...it's the best Allied gun in my eyes and I always fear these thingies when going against British troops with armor...

I don't say your impression is wrong, but I can't find reasons why the British should be so bad...I think some playing with generated battles would help to find out the actual battlefield behaviour...

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Post #: 26
- 2/5/2003 1:48:24 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Fabs, not in 1945! My Germans are terrible and the Brits are hitting with alarming accuracy on the first shot. E.g. A Comet rises from behind a hill, takes 2 shots and kills 2 AFVs then withdraws behind hill to be repeated next turn. My Germans are quivering in their boots. I've never seen such terrible ratings for the Germans since I don't usually play this late in the war.

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Post #: 27
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