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RE: Pilot Training Groups - 2/28/2014 10:51:08 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
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quote:

ORIGINAL: margeorg

OK,

as I´m looking at this diagram, a classic question pops up again: Escort training at 10k altitude? In other threads it was postulated that escort training should happen at maximum altitude and range 0. So what is correct now?

@Richlove: Which taskplanner is this?



the altitude doesn't matter at all but the range does. If you set them to range 0 they will accumulate less fatigue. Easily tested, just use two equal squadrons, keep one at 0 range and the other at max range. Now
depending on the max range you might quickly notice that the 0 range squadron stays in the average fat range around 6 or 7 while the max range squadron jumps up to 20 fat or so, depending on the max range. And no,
the max range squadron isn't gaining more skill.


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Post #: 31
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 2/28/2014 3:54:07 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: margeorg

OK,

as I´m looking at this diagram, a classic question pops up again: Escort training at 10k altitude? In other threads it was postulated that escort training should happen at maximum altitude and range 0. So what is correct now?

@Richlove: Which taskplanner is this?



the altitude doesn't matter at all but the range does. If you set them to range 0 they will accumulate less fatigue. Easily tested, just use two equal squadrons, keep one at 0 range and the other at max range. Now
depending on the max range you might quickly notice that the 0 range squadron stays in the average fat range around 6 or 7 while the max range squadron jumps up to 20 fat or so, depending on the max range. And no,
the max range squadron isn't gaining more skill.


If I forget and put a group in training at a high altitude, let's say 30,000 ft just for example, I have noticed fatigue accumulates faster. I think I've seen an effect for even 20,000 ft but it is much less.

Yes, always set the range to 0 if practical. Another tactic is to have more pilots than planes. While a squadron Training at 100% with range 0 will usually accumulate very little fatigue, a squadron CAP at 100%, even with range 0, will often accumulate up to 28 to 30% fatigue if the #planes = #pilots. One solution to that is to have, say, 30 pilots for 25 planes.

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Post #: 32
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/1/2014 10:58:34 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

Since I devoted the time to make this, I figured I'd share it. This is how I'm going to structure my training tracks going forward. Thanks to those here that answered my questions.



Interesting diagram.

Here is one for the IJ side, with very a very approximate time scale. Mainly just to give an idea of the relative, not the absolute time for training in various areas.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 33
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/1/2014 11:41:26 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Out of curiosity. Do many people "dual train" their pilots? The only pilots I dual train are Naval strike pilots who gets NavB or NavT together with NavS. All my other pilots are "singel skill".

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 34
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/1/2014 12:17:22 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Out of curiosity. Do many people "dual train" their pilots? The only pilots I dual train are Naval strike pilots who gets NavB or NavT together with NavS. All my other pilots are "singel skill".


Depends a bit on what you mean with 'dual train'.

For fighter pilots, dual train is a must against an experienced opponent, although in this case 'dual train' mostly means using a secondary training round to max out def skill.

For all other flavors of pilots it depends on your style of play, but the nice sideffect of dual/multitrained pilots is higher avg exp right from training, and higher def skill.

Exp and def are skills which both improve chances of successful RTB, so are mandatory IMHO for pilot as well as airframe preservation.

For LBA heavies I often use recon skill as a secondary btw., but I in genaral vary a lot depending on specific requirements. Single skill pilots I use in emergency situations only, if nothing else is available.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 3/1/2014 1:22:44 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/2/2014 2:41:55 PM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 921
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

Since I devoted the time to make this, I figured I'd share it. This is how I'm going to structure my training tracks going forward. Thanks to those here that answered my questions.



Interesting diagram.

Here is one for the IJ side, with very a very approximate time scale. Mainly just to give an idea of the relative, not the absolute time for training in various areas.




This image has been downloaded one time~! Thanks Obvert.

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Post #: 36
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/2/2014 8:20:55 PM   
wneumann


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quote:

I've never heard about using max altitude for escort training.

I'm not sure the altitude used really matters for the most part. For escort training, any altitude above 1000' should work. Pilots will train for strafing when altitude of their squadron is set to 100'. For bombing, I've used 1000" for low level training, any altitude higher than that to train for high level attack.

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Post #: 37
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/2/2014 9:06:10 PM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 370
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline 		wowsers,

i am begining to think the USAAF method of "learn or die" is looking more attractive.

rms/pa

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Post #: 38
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/17/2014 5:37:08 PM   
pthighs

 

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I can't post links at the moment but you can download it at onenote.com

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Post #: 39
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/17/2014 9:29:01 PM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline 		Do exp really matter for transport ? It make a difference to have pilot level 70 or 50 ? In general terms it should reduce ops loss but I'm not sure about this.

As japanese, does 70 def skill make a difference too because it's really hard to reach.

Although I'm using strafe training first because pilot gain exp in air skill while on CAP. So I usually set them first to 60-65 strafe, then I change to air training, the really good pilot will then reach 70 def at 65-70 air skill so I send them in CAP group so they increase exp and air skill to 70+ in the same time.


For naval bomber, I use the best to bomb in China so they increase exp to 70 instead oh if 60, althougt mean if they sink a ships they won't have more increase in NavT or NavB skill. Does it's a good idea ?

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Post #: 40
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/17/2014 11:56:50 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Yes, I would assume that XP helps reduce ops losses and the like, same with Transport skill. Why else would it exist as a skill?

For fighter pilots, I train 100% in Escort first. Once the group average is at/near 70, I either train in Strafe or fly CAP (either 80/20 Rest or some lower percentage while still training) so that they gain XP.

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Post #: 41
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/18/2014 3:26:17 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		pilots gain less exp/ skill in CAP than in full training.
And air training being the main, if not the only role for fighters, it is absolutely my 1st training priority.
Once they reach the desired 50 EXP, 70 AIR, then depending on the situation, they will fill combat squadrons or continue training on strafe

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Post #: 42
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/18/2014 6:20:16 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

pilots gain less exp/ skill in CAP than in full training.
And air training being the main, if not the only role for fighters, it is absolutely my 1st training priority.
Once they reach the desired 50 EXP, 70 AIR, then depending on the situation, they will fill combat squadrons or continue training on strafe



This is true. However in my observations this is true to a point. Pilots definitely seem to gain a modicum of Experience when flying "combat" missions, even if it's just CAP over a backwater bunker, and this gain is faster than if they were on Training. This seems to be true once they've passed a value somewhere around upper-40s or low-50s Experience. Obviously, this sort of experience increase is nothing compared to actual combat, but also less risky to the pilot (again, obvious).

In my game with Bullwinkle, I've transferred a half dozen pilots into TRACOM from a unit flying front line CAP even when there hasn't been combat in between. I really doubt that if they'd been flying an identical percentage on Training: Escort that I'd have had them at 81+.

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Post #: 43
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/18/2014 6:58:57 PM   
Gaspote


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Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

pilots gain less exp/ skill in CAP than in full training.
And air training being the main, if not the only role for fighters, it is absolutely my 1st training priority.
Once they reach the desired 50 EXP, 70 AIR, then depending on the situation, they will fill combat squadrons or continue training on strafe



What is the defence level you try to have ? 70 too ?

I don't understand what you said. After exp 50 and when air and strafe are at 70, my pilots don't seems to gain exp from training.

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Post #: 44
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/18/2014 8:04:27 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

pilots gain less exp/ skill in CAP than in full training.
And air training being the main, if not the only role for fighters, it is absolutely my 1st training priority.
Once they reach the desired 50 EXP, 70 AIR, then depending on the situation, they will fill combat squadrons or continue training on strafe



What is the defence level you try to have ? 70 too ?

I don't understand what you said. After exp 50 and when air and strafe are at 70, my pilots don't seems to gain exp from training.



They will gain experience from training, but it will be very slow. Best to put them on combat orders - flying CAP, searching ocean, performing recon, etc.

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Post #: 45
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 3/19/2014 4:31:16 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		My fighter pilots seem to have little problem gaining experience by training them in sweep and then stafing. but my bomber training program increases their proficiency in search, ground and naval attacks - but experience is VERY slow to climb. Is that normal?

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Post #: 46
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 5/8/2014 12:56:08 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		Training Japanese torpedo bombers for Naval attack--

What altitudes are best? I am not sure if I had a bad roll or not, but I had a swarm of 60+ Torpedo bombers (trained at 13k altitude with 50 experience/70 Nav T skill) not get any hits on a US CV fleet in October 1943. After the battle my opponent suggested that I train the torpedo bombers at 5-6k altitude, and that maybe Low Nav attack skill matters for torpedo bombers? Or is Low Nav skill only for skip bombing? I am not sure, as in the beginning of the game your KB pilots are rock stars with high stats across the board, but my pilots were the 2nd graduating class that were trained in just Nav Attack and Nav Search at 13k.

I've also had the same problem with Betty torpedo bombers that broke through and also scored zero hits. So my training must be off, but what is the right answer? Thanks very much!!

< Message edited by leehunt27@bloomberg.net -- 5/8/2014 7:22:16 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 5/8/2014 4:08:45 PM   
richlove


Posts: 196
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline 		Lots of factors could have influenced your attack - weather, AA, leaders (on both sides), how much CAP you had to fight through all come to mind. HOWEVER, if your guys were torpedo armed they were using NavT skill, not NavB or LowN. In other words, they had the wrong skills.

To train NavT: train at 5000 ft, with a group that can be armed with torpedoes, ala:






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 48
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 5/8/2014 6:33:51 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		thanks Richlove. So then training my torpedo bombers at 5k altitude on Naval Attack (zero range, about 70% training is what I think works)

To clarify my last post, my torpedo bombers were at approximately 50 experience and 70 NavT (Naval Attack torpedo), and the dive bombers on a side note were about 50 Xp and 70 NavB (divebombing) as well. The Hellcat CAP vs Zero Escort was about equal and I seemed to get a large number of fruitless attacks in. It was a game changing event as you can imagine- because the Allied counterstrike plastered the KB. At least it lasted till late 1943 I guess :).

Here's the brief combat report on the attack, thunderstorms in hex!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Biak at 90,107

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 39 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 65
B5N2 Kate x 7
B6N1 Jill x 26
D4Y1 Judy x 62



Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 72


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 6 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
B6N1 Jill: 13 damaged
B6N1 Jill: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y1 Judy: 24 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
CV Essex, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CA Baltimore



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
7 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
5 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x B6N1 Jill bombing from 13000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
6 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
5 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
2 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
5 x B6N1 Jill bombing from 13000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
7 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(18 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 14 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
VF-71 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(18 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
VF-2 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Essex

< Message edited by leehunt27@bloomberg.net -- 5/8/2014 7:36:15 PM >

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Post #: 49
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 5/8/2014 6:54:51 PM   
richlove


Posts: 196
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline 		Oh, I think I mis-read your first post. If you have 50 XP / 70 NavT, your skill level is not a problem. It looks like the thunderstorms were the decisive factor. It also looks like the Hellcats had the time to intercept your strike, which probably disrupted your attack somewhat. LoBaron will probably swoop in and provide more detail ().

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Post #: 50
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 5/8/2014 8:05:23 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
My fighter pilots seem to have little problem gaining experience by training them in sweep and then stafing. but my bomber training program increases their proficiency in search, ground and naval attacks - but experience is VERY slow to climb. Is that normal?

It is normal in my experience. Bomber training seems to max EXP at the mid-50's, after that, only 'combat ops' will add to their experience. NavS, ASW, Recon & Transport ops will slowly gain EXP & add'l skill - Bomber ops are a bit faster. Have you tried training your bombers to Strafe?

note: even rear-area Fighters will gain EXP if set to CAP.
also: I often use Fighter airgroups to train pilots in GrdB, LowG, LowN & Sweep (at 100') for use as bomber pilots, b/c they gain EXP faster, & can reach high Defense skill.

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Post #: 51
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 8/10/2014 7:47:49 PM   
gRaider2001

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/31/2012
Status: offline 		I just want to say thank you to everybody who commented in this thread. It has been very helpful in me understanding how to train my pilot:-)

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Post #: 52
RE: Pilot Training Groups - 8/22/2014 3:51:56 PM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Are you always training at 100%?

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Post #: 53
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