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Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/14/2014 7:43:36 PM   
Auchinleck

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I'm playing a Solitaire Global War. I'm a bit at a loss on how to begin the game as the Japanese player. After the initial setup, most of the land units are committed to China. War with the U.S. seems a ways off if it doesn't happen until late 1941. Because this game is so different from anything I've ever attempted to play, and because so much is not intuitive yet, I'm unsure what I should be using the vast Japanese navy for in the meantime, and where I should be sending troops to, etc.
Post #: 1
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/14/2014 7:54:11 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		You have three possible strategies:
- passive in China
- aggressive in China
- attack Russia

Ideally Russia won't force a fourth choice on you which would be: trying to react to Russian aggression. Most choose aggressive in China if that doesn't happen. You can't do too much with your navy unless China is dumb enough to try and defend on the coast. In that case you can pretty much double yourself in any attacks and the Chinese will disappear rapidly. So in lieu of that you want to build up your land power and some ATRs to help in the job of re-orging disrupted attacking units and to air transport Inf Divs or Paras to reinforce a breakthrough or to transport supply and keep an outflanking unit organized for further movement. Your objective is to add to your resource base as cheaply as possible while destroying as many Chinese units as possible.

The passive approach is to take whatever is given to you and try to do a Strategic Bombing campaign to keep Chinese production as low as possible.

In either case TRS are valuable as they can re-org units and aircraft that are on coastal hexes.



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Post #: 2
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/14/2014 9:55:13 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		13.3.3 US entry actions

Japan should this as soon as possiable.

19. The Axis align a minor country ~ Siam or other minor
(There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool for Siam)

A minor that joins a side because a major power declares war on it doesn’t count.



Japan should be ready for this.

1. Japan occupies Indo-China (1 USA entry chit and a 20% chance that another being added to the USA (Ja) entry pool)
Japan aligns French Indo-China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Move any Vichy units in French Indo-China to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in French Indo-China immediately become Japanese controlled.


These are two of the more important actions Japan should take.

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Post #: 3
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/15/2014 12:31:31 AM   
Jimm


Posts: 607
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: York, UK
Status: offline 		and build aircraft carriers!

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 4
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/15/2014 4:55:12 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

13.3.3 US entry actions

Japan should this as soon as possiable.

19. The Axis align a minor country ~ Siam or other minor
(There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool for Siam)

A minor that joins a side because a major power declares war on it doesn’t count.


Why? What good is Siam against China? There are no resources in Siam. Why take a 30% chance to give the US a chit in 1939 when the average chit value is higher than in 1940?

I have never seen a JP player do this and as the US I'd welcome it. When the other side is happy you've done something, that means it's a poor move.

All the JP players I've seen align Siam when they DoW the CW, so they can take the back door route to Singapore.

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Post #: 5
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/15/2014 5:11:47 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Sooner or later Japan does have to DOW the CW, yes? At least grab Singapore and maybe some oil in the Dutch East Indies?

Is it worth it to pursue the historical gains in the Central and Southeast Pacific? I guess Truk and Rabaul are victory hexes, so at least that much?

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Post #: 6
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/15/2014 9:53:41 AM   
Dabrion


Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline 		Japan will have to DOW Netherlands to get access to the DEI oil (assuming you play with oil). That usually means a DOW CW as well, as Netherlands will have joined in with CW as a consequence of Euro-Axis operations.

If CW has a strong Pacific presence, Singapore might be worth taking to close your backyard, Philippines are far more important though. In the Pacific the major Ports are the important hexes, those that have access to more than one sea zone are most important. If you take those hexes, place a strong garrison there and assume it oos (use [two] white print units). In your fleet HQ think about a supply unit.

The logic of the Pacific theatre is taking those hexes, staging there in order to get a shot at the next one. This is what the US will be doing for he better part of the late war, how hard this race will be basically determined JP chances. Obviously the larger Japan belly, the longer it can keep the fight in the Pacific and off the mainland, which is crucial. There is little direct economic gain involved (quite the opposite if you consider all the naval and special assets you need), but indirectly this is the only way to provide/maintain security to your home waters and therefore the resources that your industry need (similar position to UK).

_____________________________

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- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 7
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/15/2014 12:57:52 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
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From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

13.3.3 US entry actions

Japan should this as soon as possiable.

19. The Axis align a minor country ~ Siam or other minor
(There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool for Siam)

A minor that joins a side because a major power declares war on it doesn’t count.


Why? What good is Siam against China? There are no resources in Siam. Why take a 30% chance to give the US a chit in 1939 when the average chit value is higher than in 1940?

I have never seen a JP player do this and as the US I'd welcome it. When the other side is happy you've done something, that means it's a poor move.

All the JP players I've seen align Siam when they DoW the CW, so they can take the back door route to Singapore.


I tend to align Siam in J/F 1940. I don't want the CW to DoW the place and move the Rangoon MIL into the country. But I don't align Siam in 1939...

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Post #: 8
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/15/2014 1:02:49 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Sooner or later Japan does have to DOW the CW, yes? At least grab Singapore and maybe some oil in the Dutch East Indies?

Is it worth it to pursue the historical gains in the Central and Southeast Pacific? I guess Truk and Rabaul are victory hexes, so at least that much?


Yes. Every major port you can grab from the Allies, you should take them. This is because major ports are the only places the US can muster enough forces for an invasion. However, pursuing places like Guadalcanal? Usually not worth the effort. Now, if you can get shots at Pago Pago or Pearl... Now we are talking...

But beware of the major problem every major power can get. That's to overstretch themselves. Units in far away Island ports can become isolated and of no importance of the war anymore. I once captured all South Pacific major Ports but got blown away at Truk out of Pearl and that was the end of it... Yamashita was lost for the rest of the game, sitting in New Zealand doing absolutely nothing...

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(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 9
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/15/2014 2:43:29 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Semi newbie here with limited experience, but some basic observations.

The posters talking about ports are right on. Those are the key to thwart long term projection of US naval power. Without them, the US can't invade out of high sea box numbers, making invasions deeper in Japanese territory more difficult.

Fleet battles in the early-mid Pacific time frame are very much cat and mouse. A fleet sitting in port, ready to go to multiple sea zones (like the Japanese out of Truk) is far more dangerous than a fleet that has already moved for the turn and is in a given sea zone. The other side can decide if they want to engage or not, possibly setting up an ambush or they can avoid that sea zone and go do whatever they wish elsewhere.

Have a overall strategy with the Japanese for when the Pacific campaign starts. You do want to capture Rabaul as both a victory hex and also a major port. Once you have it with a white print unit, it will be extremely tough to get you out of there because you are doubled on defense. After that, you must decide to go east, south or west.

East against the US is extremely hard against competent US play. They will have Nimitz and another white print unit in Pearl, so trying to take it by invasion is virtually impossible. However, if you do manage to take it, the US is going to be crippled trying to launch counter offensives in the Pacific.

South against Australia/New Zealand could be profitable from the standpoint of some resources and a factory along with some victory hexes, but it will absorb a good number of land units and the Japanese probably don't have a lot of land units to conduct such an operation if they are trying to do anything in China. Even if they knock Australia out of the war, it is a lot of area to try to protect against the US.

West has a couple of different opportunities. India is like Australia in that perhaps a lot of land units would be consumed in trying to get India invaded and knocked out of the war. However, resources from there are fairly easy to guard and get home. Invading Ceylon as part of the initial attack is certainly possible and should be done because of the major port and victory hex. With it, the Japanese can do more in the Indian Ocean as well. Depending on how Madagascar went, the Japanese can also activate it and gain another major port along with a victory hex. This can be used to threaten South Africa. The Japanese can also look to get into business with the Persian gulf in concert with the Euro Axis. Either way, the bulk of the fleet is going to be watching what the US fleet does in this case, but they will be more on the defensive.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 10
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/15/2014 9:21:20 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Thanks for the very helpful posts. As my avatar implies, I've spent a fair chunk of my life playing Japan in games like War in the Pacific / Admiral's Edition, but even after testing MWIF for years, I'm still struggling to play effectively as Japan in the WIF universe. My cautious instincts tend to get the best of me.

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Post #: 11
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/16/2014 11:20:04 AM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		Well, it's not wrong to be cautious, even with the Japanese. Problem is only, that you need to capture oil and keep it in your possession and flowing towards Japan as long as you can. For that, you need to expand to get the Allied ships as far as possible from the precious convoy lines. So a cautious approach is to be aggressive and take major ports when you can, especially the ones which are close to the convoy lines...



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Post #: 12
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/16/2014 12:05:30 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Lets see why would I suggest Japan align Siam that has no resources or factories.

Bangkok MIL
Heavy Cruiser Sri Ayuthia
Light Cruiser Dhonburi

By sea How far is it from Bangkok to Madagascar, Persia, and Saudi Arabia?

When Japan goes to war with the CW it can now walk into Malaysia.



Other fun things for the Japanese to consider

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
3. Japan militarizes Marshalls sea area (There is a 60% chance a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool)
This occurs as soon as Japan moves the first unit into any hex on the border of the Marshalls sea area.

5. Japan occupies Madagascar (1 USA entry chit and a 50% chance of another will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool)
Japan aligns Madagascar but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Japan must have aligned French Indo-China (see entry action 1) in a previous turn.

Move any Vichy units in Madagascar to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in Madagascar immediately become Japanese controlled.

6. Japan forces closure of Burma Road (There is a 50% chance a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool)
The Burma Road is one way that the Allies can transport resources (see 13.3.2 US entry options, entry option 9. Resources to China) and build points (entry option 17. Lend lease to China) to China. The Axis can close it by physical occupation but Japan can also close it by diplomatic pressure on the Commonwealth.

If Japan does this, an Allied major power can’t transport resources or build points to China via the Burma Road or French Indo-China until it is at war with Japan or the USA chooses US entry option 24. Re-open Burma Road. China can still use the road to transport its own resources. You only have to roll a die for diplomatic closure of the Burma Road, not for physical closure.


So 30% is to rich for your blood


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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

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Post #: 13
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/16/2014 1:55:04 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
siam, is a good place to build up forces for a heavy defended Singapore and Malaysia ..

but that is something for 1940/1941..

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I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

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Post #: 14
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/16/2014 2:37:53 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Lets see why would I suggest Japan align Siam that has no resources or factories.

Bangkok MIL
Heavy Cruiser Sri Ayuthia
Light Cruiser Dhonburi

By sea How far is it from Bangkok to Madagascar, Persia, and Saudi Arabia?

When Japan goes to war with the CW it can now walk into Malaysia.



Other fun things for the Japanese to consider

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
3. Japan militarizes Marshalls sea area (There is a 60% chance a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool)
This occurs as soon as Japan moves the first unit into any hex on the border of the Marshalls sea area.

5. Japan occupies Madagascar (1 USA entry chit and a 50% chance of another will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool)
Japan aligns Madagascar but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Japan must have aligned French Indo-China (see entry action 1) in a previous turn.

Move any Vichy units in Madagascar to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in Madagascar immediately become Japanese controlled.

6. Japan forces closure of Burma Road (There is a 50% chance a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool)
The Burma Road is one way that the Allies can transport resources (see 13.3.2 US entry options, entry option 9. Resources to China) and build points (entry option 17. Lend lease to China) to China. The Axis can close it by physical occupation but Japan can also close it by diplomatic pressure on the Commonwealth.

If Japan does this, an Allied major power can’t transport resources or build points to China via the Burma Road or French Indo-China until it is at war with Japan or the USA chooses US entry option 24. Re-open Burma Road. China can still use the road to transport its own resources. You only have to roll a die for diplomatic closure of the Burma Road, not for physical closure.


So 30% is to rich for your blood




I don't think anyone is debating the wisdom of aligning Siam, but rather the timing of it. Siam serves no role until just before the Japanese are looking to open the war against the CW. By doing a early alignment, the Japanese potentially push the US that much closer to picking the embargo on strategic materials, etc which have a direct impact on the Japanese economy.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 15
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/16/2014 3:31:39 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Why should Japan go to war with the CW when they can conquer Saudi Arabia?

In the War Room see Strategy Discussions under AI for MWiF - Japan it starts about page 4 or 5.



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Post #: 16
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/16/2014 7:10:00 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Lets see why would I suggest Japan align Siam that has no resources or factories.

Bangkok MIL
Heavy Cruiser Sri Ayuthia
Light Cruiser Dhonburi

By sea How far is it from Bangkok to Madagascar, Persia, and Saudi Arabia?

When Japan goes to war with the CW it can now walk into Malaysia.

So 30% is to rich for your blood?


Bangkok is no closer than Canton.

Edit: The added units are lucky to be cannon fodder (HeavyCruiser? - what a joke ) or they might escort a convoy or two before getting pinged or shelved because using them costs precious oil. Their range and speed make them useless for Div invasions if you use the SCS transport rule and you don't get the CL if you don't play CLiF (which has its own set of issues). They'll sit in port flipped, as a couple JP CVs will be available for the same oil cost. They don't make or break JP strategy.

And in most games JP will align Siam, but mainly for the land access to Malaya and Burma, the ability to sail into the port of Kota Bharu, and to project LBA into the Indian Ocean.

But the timing is a matter of play style and overall strategy. "As soon as possible" is what you wrote and that means 2nd axis impulse of SO39 which is just plain unwise.

And the world is full of gamblers who went broke betting on a succession of 70% good/30% bad propositions. Two of those in a row and your chances of both good are less than 50%.



< Message edited by paulderynck -- 3/16/2014 8:44:45 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/16/2014 7:51:30 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

I'm playing a Solitaire Global War. I'm a bit at a loss on how to begin the game as the Japanese player. After the initial setup, most of the land units are committed to China. War with the U.S. seems a ways off if it doesn't happen until late 1941. Because this game is so different from anything I've ever attempted to play, and because so much is not intuitive yet, I'm unsure what I should be using the vast Japanese navy for in the meantime, and where I should be sending troops to, etc.

Back to your original question.

Defeating China should be your highest priority in terms of moving units around on the map for 1939 and 1940. To do that you are going to have to transport reinforcements from Japan to China. Clearly that involves the naval transports and amphibious units, but maybe also the cruisers if you are playing with divisions. The idea is to minimize the number of naval moves since for all the operations in China you want to take Land Actions. Learning how to quickly get the units from Japan to China, I'll leave up to you. There are several very good methods.

The weather in China dictates a lot of the land movement and combat. Frequently only the north or the south will have fine weather, so you should be positioned to move on both fronts, with the expectation that one of the two will be sitting around perfecting their Zen.

The Japanese bombers are rather sad. You would like to use them for ground strikes (like the Germans do in Europe) but with a tactical factor of 2, don't hope for very much. Getting rid of the Chinese fighter (and any other air units they build) should be a high priority. Its mere presence restrains Japanese air operations. Strategic bombing of Chinese factories to reduce Chinese production is a good idea (as mentioned by someone else). But all the Japanese air missions have a low probability of success, so think of them as waves washing against the shore, slowly and inexorably wearing away the sand.

Production is another matter entirely. Build land units aggressively, they can find immediate employment in China and will be essential later when at war with the US and the Commonwealth. Start building the naval units that require a long time to complete. They do not cost many BPs and you will want the carriers and transports/amphibious units when the big Pacific war breaks out. Timing is a big driver here. Figure on having the navy you want on the board when you go to war with the US. At the start of that war you will have an advantage, but it will be temporary. Naval units that arrive a year after the Pacific war starts will be of much less value. Note that building carrier air units and their pilots can be delayed a long time and still have them arrive in time to be placed on new carriers.

If the USSR declares war on you, simply shift your land operations from China to the USSR, going on the defense either in China or versus the USSR. As far as the Axis is concerned, having the USSR DOW Japan is a tremendous advantage for a number of reasons (I'll omit listing them here). If you want to attack the USSR on your own, then operations in China will be at a standstill. China can slowly build up strength and become impregnable if given a year or so of no Japanese attacks. The USSR is not a pushover if they decide to commit units in eastern Asia. This really only works if Germany is attacking the USSR in 1940 (in my opinion). Note that when the USSR is at war with Japan, the USSR production multiple goes up, and a lot of their reserve units appear on the map.

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Post #: 18
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/16/2014 8:31:14 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		All sounds good except the bit about the USSR production multiple going up. Is that different in MWiF than WiF?

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Paul

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Post #: 19
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/16/2014 11:13:32 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Bangkok is no closer than Canton.

Edit: The added units are lucky to be cannon fodder (HeavyCruiser? - what a joke ) or they might escort a convoy or two before getting pinged or shelved because using them costs precious oil. Their range and speed make them useless for Div invasions if you use the SCS transport rule and you don't get the CL if you don't play CLiF (which has its own set of issues). They'll sit in port flipped, as a couple JP CVs will be available for the same oil cost. They don't make or break JP strategy.

And in most games JP will align Siam, but mainly for the land access to Malaya and Burma, the ability to sail into the port of Kota Bharu, and to project LBA into the Indian Ocean.

But the timing is a matter of play style and overall strategy. "As soon as possible" is what you wrote and that means 2nd axis impulse of SO39 which is just plain unwise.

And the world is full of gamblers who went broke betting on a succession of 70% good/30% bad propositions. Two of those in a row and your chances of both good are less than 50%.




2nd impulse I believe what you ment was 2nd Axis impulse.

Wasn't it you all that call it the 3rd impulse With the 2nd impulse being the impulse the CW and France have to DoW Germany.

The last time I looked Japan doesn't have many US entry actions lower than 30%.

Get the Oil from Saudi Arabia. In 39 the CW doesn't need more fires to put out. That changes when production starts to arrive.

As for the units I listed them just to show there are some. And you know there are worse ones.


I think you are just arguing to be arguing again.



_____________________________

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(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 20
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/17/2014 2:32:05 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		Pardon my ignorance, but how is this oil from Saudi Arabia thing supposed to work? There's no rail link, so to trace to the oil, you're going to need a convoy in the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal, and probably the South China sea. 4 CP for an oil isn't great, but a convoy only has a range of 3, and Siam's ports all face the wrong way. So to get anything out there, you need to either

A) Declare war on the CW and seize a port, most likely Singapore.
B) Wait for France to get Vichied, and then absorb both Indochina and Madagascar, for a 12 and 15 USE respectively.

I simply don't see how it's possible to get Saudi oil in 39, and even if you could, it's going to be very hard to keep secure once the CW does enter the war and starts raiding your guys in the Indian ocean. And even if you can, it's a lot of effort to go through for a single point of oil. Why not work out how to grab Rangoon and the oil in Burma instead? That seems like a much better investment of energy.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 21
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/17/2014 4:23:35 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		Saudi oil is an easy pick-up for Japan, but only in mid-1940 once they can get a good SNLF division counter on the board, and it is not a risk-free operation. There are several ways to accomplish it depending on other geo-political events. Japan can generally dominate the Indian Ocean for one to two years depending on what the Allies are doing in Europe.


Japan's best strategy is to keep the Jolly Green Giant asleep for as absolutely long as possible. So no alignment of Siam until Nov/Dec 40, and never go into Vietnam until after Pearl Harbor. If the CW wants to muck about in Siam, let them. They can't hold a port on the South China Sea when Japan's powers are at their peak, so if they want to give Uncle Sam an extra sleeping pill (-5 roll for losing a USE chit), let the Allies have at it.

And the current paper rules discourage Japanese adventurism on distant maps with additional USE penalties.

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)
Post #: 22
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/17/2014 4:33:51 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		Disagree with you on the point of only doing Vietnam after Pearl. I realize 1.2 entry is nothing to take lightly, but if you wait, it's very easy for the CW to slip a division in on the surprise impulse to invade anywhere in Vietnam, and at that point, there's an allied unit present and you can't grab it.

The extra resource and frontage against China (well, on the old maps, not so sure it's needed in the European scale thing MWiF plays with) are too valuable, imo, to be worth risking losing forever because the CW has an infdiv and a fast cruiser sitting in India.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 23
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/17/2014 6:02:19 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Pardon my ignorance, but how is this oil from Saudi Arabia thing supposed to work? There's no rail link, so to trace to the oil, you're going to need a convoy in the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal, and probably the South China sea. 4 CP for an oil isn't great, but a convoy only has a range of 3, and Siam's ports all face the wrong way. So to get anything out there, you need to either

A) Declare war on the CW and seize a port, most likely Singapore.
B) Wait for France to get Vichied, and then absorb both Indochina and Madagascar, for a 12 and 15 USE respectively.

I simply don't see how it's possible to get Saudi oil in 39, and even if you could, it's going to be very hard to keep secure once the CW does enter the war and starts raiding your guys in the Indian ocean. And even if you can, it's a lot of effort to go through for a single point of oil. Why not work out how to grab Rangoon and the oil in Burma instead? That seems like a much better investment of energy.



To capture the Saudi Oil:

- Sail cruisers with divisions (the MAR and both INF divisions) on them with a convoy point into the Arabian Sea.
- Return to base to Mogadishu (Italian East Africa).
- Next turn, set up the convoy route (using the convoy point out of East Africa to go to the Persian Gulf) and invade with the divisions and MAR from the cruisers in Saudi Arabia. Make sure you got a TRS with an HQ sitting in the Gulf too, to prevent the Saudi's from setting up the CAV in the oil hex (if they do, land the HQ in the hex you've invaded and you can walk to the oil hex, killing the Saudi CAV).

Now, here are the downsides of this...

First: if the Saudi's set up the CAV in Riyadh, you can forget about conquering the country. Only if you put 2 HQ's in the country, you can get supply to be able to kill the Saudi's (lesson for everyone: always put the CAV in Riyadh).
Second: you need a corps on the oil to keep it save. If it leaves, the Saudi CAV can simply run across the desert and grab it back.
Third: US entry. You need to roll for the DoW and a smart CW player will try to get four corps in the country to roll again...
Fourth: as soon as war with the CW starts, the convoy line will have to be removed, which might telegraph your intentions to the CW.

So it can be done, only it doesn't sound advisable to me...



_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)
Post #: 24
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/17/2014 6:15:09 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Instead of that sort of effort that early into Saudi Arabia, I would think the Japanese just build a synth plant.

If the Euro Axis are putting any reasonable pressure on the CW, the Japanese should be in a position of naval superiority for a long time in regards to the Indian Ocean. Part of this is also rules set. If you are playing with CiF when it comes to aircraft, the CW simply do not have the carrier based aircraft to deal with the Japanese and they need most of their land based Nav to try to deal with the Euro Axis navy/subs.

The good news for the CW is the Japanese can rarely commit the amount of troops to take over everything in sight that control of the Indian Ocean implies.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 25
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/17/2014 6:57:58 PM   
Dabrion


Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Pardon my ignorance, but how is this oil from Saudi Arabia thing supposed to work? There's no rail link, so to trace to the oil, you're going to need a convoy in the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal, and probably the South China sea. 4 CP for an oil isn't great, but a convoy only has a range of 3, and Siam's ports all face the wrong way. So to get anything out there, you need to either

A) Declare war on the CW and seize a port, most likely Singapore.
B) Wait for France to get Vichied, and then absorb both Indochina and Madagascar, for a 12 and 15 USE respectively.

I simply don't see how it's possible to get Saudi oil in 39, and even if you could, it's going to be very hard to keep secure once the CW does enter the war and starts raiding your guys in the Indian ocean. And even if you can, it's a lot of effort to go through for a single point of oil. Why not work out how to grab Rangoon and the oil in Burma instead? That seems like a much better investment of energy.



To capture the Saudi Oil:

- Sail cruisers with divisions (the MAR and both INF divisions) on them with a convoy point into the Arabian Sea.
- Return to base to Mogadishu (Italian East Africa).
- Next turn, set up the convoy route (using the convoy point out of East Africa to go to the Persian Gulf) and invade with the divisions and MAR from the cruisers in Saudi Arabia. Make sure you got a TRS with an HQ sitting in the Gulf too, to prevent the Saudi's from setting up the CAV in the oil hex (if they do, land the HQ in the hex you've invaded and you can walk to the oil hex, killing the Saudi CAV).

Now, here are the downsides of this...

First: if the Saudi's set up the CAV in Riyadh, you can forget about conquering the country. Only if you put 2 HQ's in the country, you can get supply to be able to kill the Saudi's (lesson for everyone: always put the CAV in Riyadh).
Second: you need a corps on the oil to keep it save. If it leaves, the Saudi CAV can simply run across the desert and grab it back.
Third: US entry. You need to roll for the DoW and a smart CW player will try to get four corps in the country to roll again...
Fourth: as soon as war with the CW starts, the convoy line will have to be removed, which might telegraph your intentions to the CW.

So it can be done, only it doesn't sound advisable to me...




It is also possible with EHQS and/or a supply unit (basically exactly the case why they where introduced). Besides Italy usually has stakes on Saudi-Arabia first.. And they start with an HQ+SU in their NE-Africa possessions.

_____________________________

“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 26
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/17/2014 7:19:45 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

But the timing is a matter of play style and overall strategy. "As soon as possible" is what you wrote and that means 2nd axis impulse of SO39 which is just plain unwise.




2nd impulse I believe what you ment was 2nd Axis impulse.

Wasn't it you all that call it the 3rd impulse With the 2nd impulse being the impulse the CW and France have to DoW Germany.

I think you are just arguing to be arguing again.



You are hilarious. What a great sense of humor!

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 27
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/17/2014 7:21:45 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		Italy? Now that's something I haven't seen happening... But we tend to have Italy in the War early and with a closed Suez Canal and at war with France, shipping the oil home can't be done...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Dabrion)
Post #: 28
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/18/2014 5:25:58 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

But the timing is a matter of play style and overall strategy. "As soon as possible" is what you wrote and that means 2nd axis impulse of SO39 which is just plain unwise.




2nd impulse I believe what you ment was 2nd Axis impulse.

Wasn't it you all that call it the 3rd impulse With the 2nd impulse being the impulse the CW and France have to DoW Germany.

I think you are just arguing to be arguing again.



You are hilarious. What a great sense of humor!


You all call the Sep/Oct 2nd impulse the impulse the CW and France have to DoW Germany.

Shannon V. OKeets Post#46
paulderynck Post#135



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 29
RE: Advice on Japanese Strategy - 3/19/2014 4:45:16 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		1939 Sep/Oct 3rd impulse (2nd Axis impulse)

Japan aligns Siam.
Japan makes a DoW against Suadi Arabia (Other minor).

quote:

19. The Axis align a minor country ~ Siam or other minor
(There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ja) entry pool for Siam)
(There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ge/It) entry pool for Argentina, Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Iraq, Persia, Rumania, Spain, Turkey, or Yugoslavia)

This occurs when the minor country aligns with a major power (see 9.8 Aligning minors). A minor that joins a side because a major power declares war on it doesn’t count.


20. The Axis declares war on: (if Japan declares war place USA entry chit in the USA (Ja) entry pool else place it in the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (1 USA entry chit and a 20% chance of another will be added to the USA entry pool)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (There is a 80% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA entry pool)
Other minor (There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA entry pool)




From China to Saudi Arabia
1x CA (move 6 range 4) SCS transporting the 3rd division
2x TRS (move 3 range 3)
3x CP for the convoy line
1x Umezu HQ-I 5(3)2 (because he sets up in China)
1x INF 6-3
1x INF division 1-3

From Japan to China
1x TRS
1x Yamamoto HQ-I 8(4)3 (to replace Umezu in China)


The plan is to attack the Saudi CAV Corps (if ever) after you get ashore not attack it when landing. A notational not in the ZOC of a friendly corps on the surprise impulse on clear terrain has a combat factor of zero and is an automatic successful landing.


The INF division invades from the 3 sea box.

If the Saudi CAV Corps sets up on Al-Jubail (or any other coast hex) don't land on or next to the Saudi CAV Corps. If the Saudi CAV Corps doesn't run back to Riyadh the INF division can threaten to take Riyadh.

If the Saudi CAV Corps sets up one hex behind the coast the Saudi CAV Corps is automatically eliminated at 9 to 1 odds.

If the Saudi CAV Corps stays in Riyadh the Japanese INF and INF division have 7 to 1 odds.

You don't have to attack Riyadh if you don't want to since all your here for is the oil. In that case if the Saudi CAV Corps sets up in Riyadh you could use 1x CA (move 6 range 4), 1x INF division and 3x CP for the convoy line.

1x oil per turn that can be stored in Bangkok (or shipped to Japan with one more CP) until Japan goes to war with the CW.



A notional unit has 1 combat factor.
+1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps.
-1 when surprised.


2d10 Die roll modifications
+1 the defending unit is a notional unit.
-1 if a City hex.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 30
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