Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Actually, Baloogan & co did that in his scenario...was quite impressive $ figure...and US/NATO side only.

I think the engagement cost 265 mil US$, ammunition etc...AMRAAMs, Tomahawks etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillSirKill

Now I'm not advocating for a kill by kill assessment....but rather a lump total of Kills vs Ordanance used for each side...

it would make it a more in depth end of battle report... A player could drill down and see if the next attempt would be more efficient and cost effective

quote:

ORIGINAL: SSN754planker

I remember playing Harpoon Commanders Edition, and in some of their DB entries, the unit had a money value, but that was all there was. It wasn't implemented for whatever reason. But i agree, scoring based on monetary value of a unit is not a good way of scoring as it is used in Command.

What id like to see is an ability to do SAR missions for downed pilots that survive getting shot down. After all, human life is priceless!

quote:

Ground Units
Tanks and other armored units
NOTE: T-80 production has ceased. You have to get Ukrainian T-84s if you want them now.

* T-90A 'Vladimir' MBT: $4.15 million (based on Russian MOD)
* T-90M MBT: $3.5 million - (based on Indian purchase)
* T-90S MBT: $3.9 million - (based on Cyprus purchase)
* BMPT Tank Support Fighting Vehicle: $3 million - (educated guess based on the cost of a T-90)
* BMP-3M IFV: ~$3.5-4 million - (based on how dumbed down Greek vehicles were, and South Korean press release)
* BMP-3 IFV: $3.2 million for basic unit (based on Greek purchase)
* BMD-4 ACV: ~$4 million
* BMD-3 ACV: $3.5 million
* 2S25 Sprut-D: $4.5 million - (guess based on the cost of the BMD-3)
* BTR-90M IFV: ~$2 million (more guessing)
* BTR-90 IFV: ~$1.5 million (educated guess based on a statement that it costs half as much as the Stryker)
* BTR-82A IFV: ~$1.4 million - (See below)
* BTR-80A IFV: ~$1.2 million (guess based on relation to BTR-90)
* BRDM-3 Recce: ~$1.2 million (guess based on it being a BTR-80A variant)
* BTR-T APC: $700,000 on Russian-supplied T-55 (based on costs for similar vehicles)
* BTR-80 APC: $400,000 (guess based on prices for surplus units in late-90s)

Upgrades to existing tanks and armored units

* BMD-4 ACV: $500,000 upgrading from BMD-3 to BMD-4.
* BTR-T APC: $400,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks, $700,000 if you dont have any T-55s to upgrade (based on costs for similar vehicles)
* BMPT Tank Support Fighting Vehicle: $1.4 million as an upgrade to existing T-72 stocks - (based on BTR-T upgrade costs and T-72 modernization projects)
* T-55M5: $700,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. This modernization kit adds convex explosive reactive armour "Kontakt-5" panels around turret front, armour panel on glacis plate, a longer hull, a new style fire control equipment with stabilized TVK-3 and TKN-1SM sights for the gunner and commander, an improved V-55U engine (or V-46-5M) and a main gun stabilization system. The original 100 mm D-10T2S gun is maintained
* T-55M6: $1.8 million as an upgrade of existing stocks ($2.4 million with options). A more radical upgrade with longer chassis with 6 road wheels each side, a 690 hp V-46-5M diesel engine and with the complete turret with automatic loader and 2A46M 125mm main gun of the T-72BM. Also the protection was increased to T-80U level. Optionally the tank can be equipped with the 1A40-1 fire control system with ATGM system 9K120 "Svir" (as T-72B) or with the 1A42 and 9K119 "Refleks" systems (as T-80U).
* T-72BM: $800,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. This adds a new 125mm gun, 1,000 hp diesel, a thermal gunners site, new camouflage, and Relikt ERA (which is supposed to be twice as effective as Kontakt-5)
* BMP-1P: $600,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a 9P13M Konkurs launcher on an exposed pintle.
* BMP-1PG: $350,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds an AGS-17 auto grenade launcher.
* BMP-1MS: $920,000 as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a new turret with 2 2A42 30mm autocannons, 1 Kornet launcher and 1 PKTM coax machine gun.

Artillery, rockets and missiles

* BM-30 300mm MRL: $12.1 million (based on very recent sale to India)
* 2S19 152mm SPH: $2.25 million (based on 2000 price)
* 2A65/MZ-146-1 152mm towed howitzer: $800,000 - (based on the costs of the French 155mm SP and towed howitzers, and the 2S19)
* 2S31 120mm SP Gun/Mortar: $1 million (based on 2000 price)
* 2S23 120mm SP Gun/Mortar: ~$750,000 (based on 2000 price
* 9K720 Iskander: $120 million per battery (6 launch vehicles, 24 missiles, command and support vehicles) - (wild guess)

Missile systems

* S-400 (SA-21): $400 million per fire unit (8 launchers, 112 missiles, command and support vehicles) (estimate based on performance figures, larger missile load, etc)
* S-300PMU-2 - (SA-20B): $200 million per fire unit (6 launchers, 48 missiles, command and support vehicles) (guess based on below)
* S-300PMU-1 - (SA-20A): $160 million per fire unit (6 launchers, 48 missiles, command and support vehicles) - (based on VERY recent Iranian order and other sales)
* Buk-M1-2 (SA-17): ~$120 million per battalion with 6 TELARs, 6 transloaders, & 36 missiles (pretty much a guess)
* Tor-M1 (SA-15): $25 million (based on possible future sale)
* Pantsir-S1: $16+ million (based on sale to Algeria)
* Bastion-P Coastal Defense Battery: $150 million for radar, control center, 6 launchers, & 36 missiles - (based on Syrian buy)

Aircraft
Fighters (multirole, air superiority, strike)

* Su-35: $75+ million - (most legitimate claims were $65 million, but the Su-30s real price makes it clear the Su-35 should be significantly higher than that)
* Su-30MK series: $60-70 million - (contract prices vary widely, from $50 million to Malaysia to over $80 million per unit for the Algerian trade-in)
* Su-33: ~$60-70 million - (based on relative prices of other Russian aircraft)
* Su-32: ~$60-65 million - (based on relative prices of other Russian aircraft)
* MiG-35: $55-60 million (assuming this is just referring to flyaway)
* MiG-29K: ~$50-55 million (Indian acquisition was $46+ in 2004, should be slightly more expensive than MiG-29M, which has most of the improved features but is not reinforced for carrier operations)
* MiG-29M: ~$50+ million ($5-10 mil more than SMT)
* MiG-29SMT: $45+ million (various contracts at between $40 and $45 million, some as low as $37. But, cheaper ones, as shown in the last link, arent quite new-build)

Helicopters and ground attack aircraft

* Ka-52: ~$40-50 million (based on below)
* Ka-50N: ~$35-45 million (based on Mi-28 cost)
* Mi-28: ~$35-40 million (based on sale of used units to Turkey)
* Mi-35: $16+ million (based on sale to Venezuela)
* Ka-60/64: $12 million (based on sale to India)
* Mi-17/Mi-8: $9 million (based on sale to Venezuela)
* Ka-27: $12 million - (based on the costs of the similar in size Mi-17)
* Mi-26M: $18 million - (guess based on military-today, adjusted upwards 50%)
* Su-25TM/Su-39: $40 million - (rough estimate)



September 5th, 2012 #2
hamidreza

Transports, tankers, AEW&C aircraft and trainers
In late 2009, Dmitry Medvedev announced that Russian production of the An-124 will resume, making the aircraft available from a Russian manufacturer.

* A-50 AEW&C: ~$250-300 million as upgrade of existing Il-76, +$30 million for Il-76 aircraft - (extremely rough estimate based on 15-year-old joint Russian/Israeli program for China)
* Il-78M Tanker: $35 million (based on 2001 contract and inflation)
* Il-76MF: $50 million - (based on Jordanian purchase)
* Il-76MD-90: $40+ million - (based on MF cost)
* An-124-102: $195 million (based on this data)
* An-124-200: $160 million (based on this estimate)
* An-124-100M: $150 million (based on this estimate)
* Tu-214: $40+ million - (estimate based on Wikipedia and Il-76 costs)
* Il-112V: $20 million - (estimate based on Il-76 costs)
* Sukhoi Superjet 100: $30 million - (based on this contract)
* Yak-130: $13 million - (based on 2007 sale)

UAVs

* Yakolev Pchela UAV: $22 million per system (mobile ground control station, technological truck, loader/transporter, 10 Pchela with expendables)
* ZALA 421-12 UAV: $340,000
* ZALA 421-06 helicopter UAV: $380,000
* ZALA 421-8 micro UAV: $172,000 per system (2 UAV, portable ground station, 2 spare power supply, backpack)
* Dozor 600 UAV: $4 million per system (mobile ground control station/truck, 6 UAVs)

Aircraft Upgrades
* MiG-21-93: $4.5 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a new radar (MiG-29 class), upgraded avionics, improved cockpit egonomy, and the capability to fire Vympel R-27 (NATO: AA-10 'Alamo') and Vympel R-77 (NATO: AA-12 'Adder') missiles, along with airframe life extension.
* MiG-21-97: $5.5 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Includes the MiG-21-93 package, plus the Klimov RD-33 engine. Evaluations place this in the F-16 class.
* MiG-23-98: $6 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Adds a new radar, new self-defense suite, new avionics, improved cockpit ergonomy, helmet-mounted sight, and the capability to fire Vympel R-27 (NATO: AA-10 'Alamo') and Vympel R-77 (NATO: AA-12 'Adder') missiles, along with airframe life extension.
* MiG-29SMT: $21 million as an upgrade of existing stocks.
* Su-27SM2: $37 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Avionics and weapons upgrades to Su-35 class, plus the Salyut AL-31F-M1 engine.
* MiG-31BM: $7 million as an upgrade of existing stocks. Avionics upgrade, HOTAS, cockpit update, upgrade to the NIIP Zaslon radar. Adds ability to use R-77/RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) missiles, and the full range of air-to-ground weapons. Price based on 2007 contract to upgrade Kazakh MiG-31s
* Su-30MKIB Super 30: $12 million as an upgrade to existing Su-30MKI. Adds the Zhuk ASE AESA radar, modernizes the onboard computers and ECM to Su-35 standards, adds the ability to use the BrahMos missile.

Naval Units

Submarines

* Borei Nuclear Submarine: $1.4 billion+ - (rough estimate)
* Graney Nuclear Submarine: $1 billion+ - (rough estimate)
* Akula II Nuclear Submarine: $800+ millon - (based on suggested cost of finishing 2 and estimated cost in '07)
* Amur 1650 Submarine: $450 million (based on statement that theyre $100 million cheaper than contemporaries)
* Amur 950 Submarine: ~$400 million (mostly an educated guess)
* Improved Kilo (636) Submarine: ~$300 million - (contracts vary from $250 to $350 million each, but the Algerian sale hits right in the middle)

Surface warships

* Sovremenny I/II Destroyer (956EM): $800+ million - (based on 2002 sale to China)
* Gorshkov Frigate: $400 million - (based on this estimate)
* Krivak III Frigate: $400 million (based on 2006 Indian purchase)
* Gepard Frigate: $150-200 million, depending on variant - (no good links, but Vietnam appears to have paid $300 million for 2)
* Tigr Corvette: ~$150+ million - (based on globalsecuritys statement. Its also a development of the Stergushchy)
* Stergushchy Corvette: $150 million - (based on this figure at current exchange rates)
* Tarantul Missile Corvette: $65+ million (based on estimates for a sale to Libya)
* Molniya Missile Corvette: $60+ million (based on sale to Vietnam, and the fact that its basically just a Tarantul with different missiles)
* Buyan Corvette: $60 million - (based on the price of the similarly-sized Tarantul. The Buyan is not as heavily armed, but does include stealth features, so this seems a reasonable compromise cost.)
* Ivan Gren landing ship: $45 million (based on the cost of the similar Frank S. Besson class LSV)
* Zubr class heavy LCAC: $79 million (based on a recent sale to China)

Munitions

* P800 Yakhont: - $2.5-3 million - (estimate based on Syrian buy)
* Kh-31AM: ~$1.5 million - (estimate based on US purchase of target drone version with no guidance or warhead)
* Kh-31PM: ~$1.3 million - (estimate based on above)
* Igla-S (SA-24) MANPADS: ~$1.6-1.8 million for 1 launcher and 10 missiles - (based on below)
* Igla (SA-18) MANPADS: $1.4 million for 1 launcher and 10 missiles - (based on this source for cost and this for number)
* Kornet-E (AT-14) ATGM: $875,000 for 1 launcher and 10 missiles - (based on recent Turkish buy)
* Metis-M (AT-13) ATGM: ~$500,000 for 1 launcher & 10 missiles - (based off unconfirmed data and inflaition compared to Kornet price)

FUTURE SYSTEMS
Russias often hard to gauge on future equipments because it has a history of suppressing information until theyre ready to be demonstrated. Thus, its mostly supposition as to whats coming next, but we do know of a few things that are definitely in the works.

Ground:
T-95 MBT: $5.2 million estimate. Russian military involvement was cancelled April 2010, but it could still be developed and marketed as a private venture. IOC probably 2013-2016 if continued.
S-500: $450 million as a very rough estimate. Little is known other than that it's NOT a development of the S-400, and is intended to provide better ballistic missile defense. Expected for an IOC of 2012.

Air:
*PAK-FA: Russia claims $80 million, Insiders say easily $100-120+, maybe even as high as $135 million. Ill assume that the higher ones are export price, though even that very well may not be. First flight in 2010, and based on delays, were probably looking at service in 2014-2016.
Il-214: $40 million rough estimate. Joint venture with India, IOC expected around 2016.

Naval:
New Carrier: ~$3-5 billion each. Some sources state a new class of 2-4 carriers is in the works, with construction starting 2013-2014. May or may not amount to anything.
New Amphibious Ship: ~$300-800 million each, depending on specs. See above.
Pauk replacement: Theyll start needing it soon. Nothing in the works that I know of though, and they may just be left unreplaced due to increasing blue-water emphasis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marder2075

I would like to see another DB- Field added: "Humans per Unit"
e.g. F16 Falcon = 1.
BMP = 9 (or so)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marder2075

I would like to see another DB- Field added: "Humans per Unit"
e.g. F16 Falcon = 1.
BMP = 9 (or so)

Command does have that field in the database, for ships, subs and aircraft.
http://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=590

Doesn't seem to have it for land facilities though; would be cool if it did!

quote:

Bazza042
Am I the only one here who thinks that the accountants are taking over....

I imagine an accountant, complete with calculator, next to the Admiral in charge of the CAG, saying:

"Um I don't think you ought to try downing that incoming plane with a missile, best way is to wait till the plane is
closer and use your guns: far more cost effective. He has only got a 0.6% chance of sinking the carrier, so lets use the
gu.........."

quote:



kaburke61
Agreed. I think of all the changes/additions to CMANO the devs could work on, this IMO is low on the list. I'm not sure I've ever seen or read things like "Time to take out that Panther across the valley, but load up the HEAT rounds 'cause the AP rounds are more expensive" (and no, I don't know which is actually more expensive, just illustrating the point!). If I was a soldier (or sailor, or Captain, etc.), the last thing on my mind when my life is on the line is "hmmmmmm....how can I save the US government some money"

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaburke61

Agreed. I think of all the changes/additions to CMANO the devs could work on, this IMO is low on the list. I'm not sure I've ever seen or read things like "Time to take out that Panther across the valley, but load up the HEAT rounds 'cause the AP rounds are more expensive" (and no, I don't know which is actually more expensive, just illustrating the point!). If I was a soldier (or sailor, or Captain, etc.), the last thing on my mind when my life is on the line is "hmmmmmm....how can I save the US government some money"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaburke61

Agreed. I think of all the changes/additions to CMANO the devs could work on, this IMO is low on the list. I'm not sure I've ever seen or read things like "Time to take out that Panther across the valley, but load up the HEAT rounds 'cause the AP rounds are more expensive" (and no, I don't know which is actually more expensive, just illustrating the point!). If I was a soldier (or sailor, or Captain, etc.), the last thing on my mind when my life is on the line is "hmmmmmm....how can I save the US government some money"

Costs do count but not in the direct way your describing. Cost of ammunition is definitely a factor in training but also in stocking - You won't get the accountant on the Bridge advising the admiral but you will get him in the ports advising on how many of which weapons can or will be loaded - its a lot more complex than that but cost does count. However, I don't advocate that it be a DB item, it's the scenario designer's call on how he balances the game, I'm doing just that in an upcoming scenario where AMRAAMs are in very short supply an the F-15's will have to load up Sparrows or go home.

Interesting discussion.

B

quote:



Pretty sure this exact type of nonsense happened during the Vietnam war.

If a pilot fired an AGM-45 Shrike at an enemy SAM, that was viewed as proper procedure/ a good thing.

If he fired a AGM-78 Standard ARM at one, he'd have to fill out a purposely lengthy amount of paperwork and pray they ruled his actions were justified.
You know, because getting shot at by a SAM isn't necessarily excuse enough to fire a more expensive (and effective) missile