RE: The towel is thrown

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RE: The towel is thrown - 3/19/2014 7:53:37 AM

Spidery

Posts: 1821
Joined: 10/6/2012
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline

Commiserations on your loss and thank-you for an interesting AAR.

I think MrKane is a very tough opponent.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 391

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/19/2014 8:04:14 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Sorry Nic. That sucks.

This is one where the system allowing so many late war planes is just too much to handle. Mr Kane used them beautifully, but as we all know the Allies should be able to eventually win out in the air. If they can't this is the result, and I'm sure he's not happy ending the game here either.

To be honest, Erik, it's not just the air war. Surely there i have been having problems against MrKane since the beginning and, lately, things got even worse.
But he won, hands down, also on the ground and on the seas. He used SLs and forts in a way i've never seen. Always fast in replaying to my moves and counterattacking. On the seas, he has used his force very rationally, and won several decisive battles.
And mines...wow....at Singapore, in the three battles fought there, i think i have lost half of my fleets just to mines. Never seen anything like that.
Learnt a lot. Really.
In a word: a complete and total defeat. I have no excuses. If the allies do not even reach parity in VPs by feb 1945 it means they have lost. Sic et simpliciter.
Better to accept it, swallow it, learn the lesson, and move over

I get it. I'd like to have some info on his side to see what the heck is going on over there. Makes me wonder if there was anything left close to the Home Islands.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 392

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/19/2014 8:40:45 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Sorry Nic. That sucks.

This is one where the system allowing so many late war planes is just too much to handle. Mr Kane used them beautifully, but as we all know the Allies should be able to eventually win out in the air. If they can't this is the result, and I'm sure he's not happy ending the game here either.

To be honest, Erik, it's not just the air war. Surely there i have been having problems against MrKane since the beginning and, lately, things got even worse.
But he won, hands down, also on the ground and on the seas. He used SLs and forts in a way i've never seen. Always fast in replaying to my moves and counterattacking. On the seas, he has used his force very rationally, and won several decisive battles.
And mines...wow....at Singapore, in the three battles fought there, i think i have lost half of my fleets just to mines. Never seen anything like that.
Learnt a lot. Really.
In a word: a complete and total defeat. I have no excuses. If the allies do not even reach parity in VPs by feb 1945 it means they have lost. Sic et simpliciter.
Better to accept it, swallow it, learn the lesson, and move over

I get it. I'd like to have some info on his side to see what the heck is going on over there. Makes me wonder if there was anything left close to the Home Islands.

I think I can answer.
Luzon and Mindanao are heavily fortified and crowded with divisions, AAs, engineers and base forces.
Formosa too.
As far as I can tell, a part from the Divisions holding Batavia, Balikapan, Palembang and Singapore, there's nothing that really worth between the present front line and the Philippines. Probably Japan is empty but he really doesn't need to have anything there at the moment.
With Hokkaido and the western Kuriles heavily fortified, with the Mariannas, PI and Formosa too, he has a perimeter strong enough. The KB (fully operative) is enough to prevent any hail mary allied move to bypass those strongpoints.
He had evacuated, at the very right time, everything from Burma and Thailand and now was moving back from central china to a safer perimeter. A sound strategy, perfectly executed and helped by the slow pace of the allied advance (slow pace determined by the presence of those fortresses that couldn't be safely bypassed - Singapore, Palembang, Batavia, Kendari, Truk-Ponape)

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 393

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/19/2014 8:53:50 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 27, 45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Singapore at 50,84, Range 9,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
E Yasoshima, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
E Kuri, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
E Tsuga, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
E Hishu, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
E Kiku, Shell hits 2, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB King George V
BC Renown
CA London
CA Suffolk, Shell hits 1
CA Cumberland
DD Quadrant
DD Queensborough
DD Quilliam
DD Racehorse
DD Relentless
DD Wager

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 98 encounters mine field at Singapore (50,84)

Allied Ships
DD Relentless, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 287 encounters mine field at Singapore (50,84)

Allied Ships
DD Stockham, Mine hits 1
DD Dortch, Mine hits 1, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 518 encounters mine field at Singapore (50,84)

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales, Mine hits 2
CA Canberra II, Mine hits 1
CA Wichita, Mine hits 2, heavy damage
DD William Porter, Mine hits 1, heavy damage
DD McKee, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Healy, Mine hits 1, heavy damage
DD Halligan, Mine hits 1, on fire
DD Guest, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Baltimore, Mine hits 1
DD Porterfield, Mine hits 1
DD Philip, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD O'Bannon, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 519 encounters mine field at Singapore (50,84)

Allied Ships
BB Richelieu, Mine hits 1
BB Indiana, Mine hits 2
DD Izard, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hoel, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hazelwood, Mine hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hall, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Bradford, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Beale, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Brown, Mine hits 1, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Singapore at 50,84 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 12 damaged
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 26 damaged
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 3 destroyed on ground
H6K4-L Mavis: 14 damaged
H6K4-L Mavis: 1 destroyed on ground
A7M2 Sam: 7 damaged
A7M2 Sam: 2 destroyed on ground
N1K5-J George: 9 damaged
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-100-II Tony: 1 damaged
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-94-II: 2 damaged
Ki-94-II: 1 destroyed on ground
E15K1 Norm: 3 damaged
E15K1 Norm: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-67-Ia Peggy: 1 damaged
Ki-67-Ia Peggy: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-83: 1 destroyed on ground
D4Y4 Judy: 1 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-46-III Dinah: 4 damaged
Ki-46-III Dinah: 1 destroyed on ground
L2D2 Tabby: 8 damaged
L2D2 Tabby: 2 destroyed on ground
G4M2e Betty: 14 damaged
G4M2e Betty: 2 destroyed on ground
A6M8 Zero: 2 damaged
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-84r Frank: 5 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed on ground
J7W1 Shinden: 3 damaged
N1K2-J George: 4 damaged
N1K2-J George: 2 destroyed on ground
H8K2 Emily: 9 damaged
H8K2 Emily: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 2 damaged
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-49-II KAI Helen: 1 damaged

80 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB King George V, Shell hits 1
BC Renown
CA Cumberland
CA Suffolk
CA London
DD Racehorse
DD Quilliam
DD Queensborough
DD Quadrant

Japanese ground losses:
221 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 11 (2 destroyed, 9 disabled)
Vehicles lost 7 (3 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Airbase hits 17
Runway hits 28

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Singapore at 50,84 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 9 damaged
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed on ground
B7A2 Grace: 26 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed on ground
G4M2e Betty: 11 damaged
G4M2e Betty: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-83: 56 damaged
Ki-83: 11 destroyed on ground
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 11 damaged
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 1 destroyed on ground
H6K4-L Mavis: 40 damaged
H6K4-L Mavis: 4 destroyed on ground
N1K5-J George: 21 damaged
N1K5-J George: 2 destroyed on ground
J1N1-S Irving: 13 damaged
J1N1-S Irving: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 6 damaged
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed on ground
A7M2 Sam: 10 damaged
A7M2 Sam: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-84r Frank: 6 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed on ground
J7W1 Shinden: 4 damaged
J7W1 Shinden: 1 destroyed on ground
L2D2 Tabby: 3 damaged
L2D2 Tabby: 2 destroyed on ground
E15K1 Norm: 4 damaged
E15K1 Norm: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 3 damaged
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 1 destroyed on ground
H8K2 Emily: 9 damaged
H8K2 Emily: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-46-III Dinah: 2 damaged
D4Y1-C Judy: 1 damaged
D4Y1-C Judy: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-100-II Tony: 3 damaged
Ki-100-II Tony: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-94-II: 2 damaged
Ki-94-II: 1 destroyed on ground
D4Y4 Judy: 4 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 1 destroyed on ground

126 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina, Shell hits 2
CL Birmingham
CL Biloxi
CL Trenton
DD Rowe
DD McGowan
DD Foote
DD Colahan
DD Chevalier
DD Brownson
DD Braine
DD Bache
DD Ammen

Japanese ground losses:
236 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 32 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 16 (1 destroyed, 15 disabled)

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 47

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Singapore at 50,84 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-83: 52 damaged
Ki-83: 8 destroyed on ground
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 37 damaged
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 5 destroyed on ground
G4M2e Betty: 5 damaged
G4M2e Betty: 3 destroyed on ground
N1K2-J George: 4 damaged
N1K2-J George: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 7 damaged
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 5 damaged
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 3 destroyed on ground
H6K4-L Mavis: 20 damaged
H6K4-L Mavis: 6 destroyed on ground
N1K5-J George: 10 damaged
N1K5-J George: 4 destroyed on ground
Ki-84r Frank: 7 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-49-II KAI Helen: 2 damaged
Ki-49-II KAI Helen: 1 destroyed on ground
A7M2 Sam: 1 destroyed on ground
L2D2 Tabby: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-100-II Tony: 1 damaged
Ki-100-II Tony: 1 destroyed on ground
H8K2 Emily: 9 damaged
H8K2 Emily: 1 destroyed on ground
D4Y4 Judy: 4 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 3 destroyed on ground
E15K1 Norm: 1 damaged
Ki-46-III Dinah: 2 damaged
Ki-46-III Dinah: 1 destroyed on ground
B7A2 Grace: 8 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 4 destroyed on ground
A6M8 Zero: 9 damaged
A6M8 Zero: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-67-Ia Peggy: 3 damaged
Ki-94-II: 4 damaged
Ki-94-II: 1 destroyed on ground

18 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB Richelieu
BB Alabama
DD Boyd

Japanese ground losses:
557 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 12 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 19 (3 destroyed, 16 disabled)

Airbase hits 12
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 21

BB Richelieu firing at Singapore
BB Alabama firing at Singapore
DD Boyd firing at Wake Coastal Gun Battalion
Wake Coastal Gun Battalion firing at DD Boyd

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 469 encounters mine field at Singapore (50,84)

Allied Ships
CL Newfoundland, Mine hits 1, on fire
DE Express, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Singapore at 50,84 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84r Frank: 9 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed on ground
N1K2-J George: 5 damaged
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 4 damaged
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 2 destroyed on ground
J7W1 Shinden: 14 damaged
J7W1 Shinden: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 34 damaged
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 5 destroyed on ground
Ki-83: 10 damaged
Ki-83: 1 destroyed on ground
A7M2 Sam: 5 damaged
A7M2 Sam: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 33 damaged
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 3 destroyed on ground
N1K5-J George: 7 damaged
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed on ground
L2D2 Tabby: 2 damaged
L2D2 Tabby: 1 destroyed on ground
B7A2 Grace: 5 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-49-II KAI Helen: 2 damaged
Ki-49-II KAI Helen: 1 destroyed on ground
G4M2e Betty: 3 damaged
H8K2 Emily: 2 damaged
E15K1 Norm: 2 damaged
E15K1 Norm: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-94-II: 4 damaged
Ki-94-II: 1 destroyed on ground

210 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
CL Richmond, Shell hits 3
CL Kenya
CL Ceylon
CL Sumatra

Japanese ground losses:
25 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 18

...the subsequent naval attacks of Graces sunk what was left of all those damaged ships, slowly moving back to safety...

This is just an extract of part of what happened at Singapore... consider that, 6 months ago, many more of these attempts were launched, and the results had been even uglier...
However, one would think that after all these naval bombardments, the base would have been pretty trashed, right? The low Japanese service rating fighters would be grounded at least, right?
Look what my bombers found....

orning Air attack on Singapore , at 50,84

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 42,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 41
A7M2 Sam x 81
J7W1 Shinden x 73
N1K2-J George x 87
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 36
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 210
Ki-83 x 137
Ki-84r Frank x 39
Ki-100-II Tony x 49

These guys alone managed to shoot down 200 of my fighters (sweep and escort), plus 150 4Es. More 100 4Es were destroyed by the heavy flak and by op losses (flying at 15K).

And this was just the last attempt, the one that really broke my spirit. This battle was preceeded by days and days of defeats in the air. With every a/c used. At every altitude used. With whatever setting you could imagine. Nothing worked.
Now, if you posed the question "could the allies go on?", my answer would be yes.
For sure the allies could keep on fighting. They have so much...their OOB is so generous... but could the allies advance towards the HI with a chance of getting in range Japan by late 1945? My answer would be "No".
The Japanese, this time, have won. No question about that

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 394

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/19/2014 10:30:26 AM

veji1

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/9/2005
Status: offline

couldn't you try to send more ground troops to attack Singapore ?

_____________________________

Adieu � Dieu odieux... sign� Adam

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 395

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/19/2014 11:28:57 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

couldn't you try to send more ground troops to attack Singapore ?

At Singa were confirmed 130K men, with 800 guns.
In a +4 terrain and a river crossing, with probably 9 forts?
I've already experimented at Palembang... 35K Japanese (2 divisions) without any support troops, just a tank rgt and some AA units... 7 forts and +3 terrain... I bombed that damned place for 8 months, every single day... not a single attack worked. Not only a single fort could be put down.
A land attack at Singapore would have been a disaster.
Also consider that to even think about that, I would need an army 100% prepped. Means 3 more months of preparation lost. My divisions in Malaya (7 at the moment) were sieging (and so were fully prepped) for Kotha Baru, where the Japanese were defending with 90K men before they managed to evacuate them all under my nose.
Once Khota Baru fell, my units needed to immediately start preparing for another series of targets (I chose Taiwan and Hanoi for that Army)...
I think the only "good" solution for Singa was to cut it out of its supply routes (thing that I've done isolating it by land, conquering Malaya, and by sea, conquering NW borneo and Groot Nanotea) and to shut it down by air and sea bombings, so to simply be able to keep it closed and bypassing it.
Man...I was wrong

Consider that with SLs you cannot simply "bring more". An overstacked attack may mean half of your troops destroyed or disabled. And a trashed division in Java, Sumatra or Singapore, means that that unit, in order to be used for the next planned advance, needs at least 3 months of rest (hoping to have enough replacements in the pools, which, for some LCUs - brits for example - is not often the case).
When you reach Jan 1945 you need to start thinking about these timings... the health of your LCUs starts to become a primary objective, and so does the preparation, cause you cannot efford anymore a trashed LCU, just like you cannot efford to got a badly damaged major ship.
In 1945, a damaged CV, BB or CA is = to a sunk one. You cannot hope to use it anymore...it's out of the war. The same, imho, for a badly trashed LCU.

(in reply to veji1)

Post #: 396

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/19/2014 6:09:28 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

Singapore isn't an urban heavy hex, it's just an urban light.

_____________________________

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 397

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/19/2014 7:18:06 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

Can I see a strat map of the last turn you played? I'm curious as to how far you got.

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 398

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 12:39:31 AM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

quote:

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 42,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 41
A7M2 Sam x 81
J7W1 Shinden x 73
N1K2-J George x 87
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 36
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 210
Ki-83 x 137
Ki-84r Frank x 39
Ki-100-II Tony x 49

Santa Maria!!

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 399

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 10:33:01 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Can I see a strat map of the last turn you played? I'm curious as to how far you got.

Sure!

Here u go

In orange you can see what is the new defensive perimeter where the Japanese are moving to, based on my assumptions thanks to the intelligence reports.

Basically, when the game ended, the perimeter was:

Reaghen-Bankok in Thailand
Singapore in Malaya
South of Thuyun in China (moving down towards Canon)
Miri-Brunei and Balikapan-Samarinda in Borneo
Doggala-Kendari in the Celebes
Ambon-Lautem-Kai enlanded in the southern DEI
Horn Island, NG, upper solomons in SOPAC
Ponape-Truk-Mariannas in CENTPAC

With 3 strongpoints isolated and sieged: Singapore, Palembang and Batavia

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 400

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 10:43:54 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Another big strategic mistake of mine that I now see is the following:

It's impossible to think to advance on a Burma-DEI vector and on a CENTPAC one without having in mind the real goal to unite these two vectors.
Basically, doing what I did (so to say: concentrate all my major assets in the DEI-SRA advance), means that you're gonna be too stretched on supplies and you're gonna do without any serious repair shipyard.
Why? Because in DBB India produces very little supplies. Basically not enough to support a real late war massive offensive.
The supplies need to be brought up from the western coast to Oz and from Oz to the DEI...a LONG journey...
CT has probably enough (barely) of them, but very few tons of fuel are brought there...
Then the absence of any major repair yard means that, once a major ship is damaged, it's gonna be out of the war for a looooooong time. Much longer than if you used the western coast yards.
Colombo is too small...and it gets crowded too soon.
Sydney has the very same problem, and CT isn't that better.
Say a BB gets 30 flt damage fighting near Singapore... you need to ship it back to Colombo first (which normally is already crowded by damaged CVEs, APAs and CL/DDs), then to CT...and from there to eastern coast... all these movements easily takes a couple of months...plus the repair works...plus the trip back...

If you really want to strangle the empire, and you want to do a double-vector attack (DEI and Pacific), I think you really need to make a plan that, sooner better than later, makes the two vectors combine.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 401

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 1:30:09 PM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

Fascinating game with a bummer of a conclusion for you, GJ. Mr. Kane has proven in several games that he knows his stuff.

While I do concur that uniting the vectors is a good plan strategically, I would argue that your main problems in this game were tactical. The combination of a stacking limit optimized ground defense and the very effective use of the supercharged Japanese economy to produce crazy numbers of late war fightprod resulted in nuts you couldn't crack, and those nuts would have been present regardless of the vector(s) chosen for the advance. I am not experienced enough with the Allied side to suggest a solution, but I will certainly try to think of one. Massed 4E night bombing comes to mind, but I know you are opposed to that, and given the game engine's issues with night bombing I don't entirely blame you.

It also seems in several recent games that the limitations of the now common Allied assault into the DEI are showing, or at least that good Japanese players are learning counters. Imperials have also learned (in large part thanks to you) to fortify the northern approach. Perhaps it is time for the Allies to re-visit the middle of the map - one advantage to the Pacific theaters is the ability to isolate an island base and destroy it. CENPAC requires late war Allied goodies to pull off, but it is a short route to Japan. The men in green have also had success with overland campaigns into China, but that would not have worked in this case.

Finally, I continue to wonder whether the game would work better if the "bounce" was just removed entirely. While altitude gave a real life advantage, it just seems overdone. Not trying to re-start an ancient argument here, but once P-51s are losing to anything with a prop it seems like things are out of whack.

As always you are a great sport and an excellent player. Chin up and fight on in the next game!

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 3/20/2014 2:34:53 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 402

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 1:48:23 PM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

Ok, now that the game is over I popped into Mr. Kane's AAR. I think you should do so as well and perhaps talk to him in a debriefing. It appears that several of your assumptions were incorrect due to fog of war. He believed Singapore desperately vulnerable to ground attack as it was only defended by one division. Further, his fighter pools were almost empty, supplies were becoming a concern, and the next line in the PI had much lower forts than the DEI line. I understand your decision to throw in the towel, and Japan was still a long way away for Feb '45, but you were closer to a breakthrough than you believed.

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(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 403

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 2:49:26 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

I concur with Cribtop.

I admit I've mostly been skimming your AAR, as I think you put up a lot of posts in a row a couple of times while I was out of town or otherwise not regularly checking the forums, so maybe my perception is off. But basically: why was it necessary to go "all in" for Singapore, Palembang, and Batavia? Why not just skip them, while keeping them isolated? I understand the need for a shipyard (how big is Soerabaja's? It's easier to take than Batavia due to terrain)... I don't know. I just think maybe there's a reminder in here for the rest of us to just go around the big thorny patch sometimes. This may not have even been one of those times, but it's worth thinking about.

(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 404

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 3:09:27 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I concur with Cribtop.

I admit I've mostly been skimming your AAR, as I think you put up a lot of posts in a row a couple of times while I was out of town or otherwise not regularly checking the forums, so maybe my perception is off. But basically: why was it necessary to go "all in" for Singapore, Palembang, and Batavia? Why not just skip them, while keeping them isolated? I understand the need for a shipyard (how big is Soerabaja's? It's easier to take than Batavia due to terrain)... I don't know. I just think maybe there's a reminder in here for the rest of us to just go around the big thorny patch sometimes. This may not have even been one of those times, but it's worth thinking about.

Just a brief note before leaving town...

I tried to bypass those strongpoints, and i tried to simply isolatethem and bomb to oblivion. The problem was that, with the reduced effect pf the 500lb GP bomb, high forts and what seemed to be an unlimited number of supplies those bases couldn't simply be bypasses. The air threat was simply too big. My CAP was unable to provide any decent cover for my TFs, due to the impossibility to defend against His sweeps. If you bypass a base like Singapore you have to be sure that that base is dead, like the allies did with Truk in RL. Otherwise, sooner or later, 2000 planes will pop up there attacking your TFs...and you cannot always use the CVs as escort.

T me that was a forced choice rather than an option

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Post #: 405

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 4:16:59 PM

khyberbill

Posts: 1941
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline

quote:

but once P-51s are losing to anything with a prop it seems like things are out of whack.

I have a concern with this issue as well. In my recent PBEM that reached 11/45 the P-51 was not doing well. Only the P47N seemed to more than hold it's own. And I was trying to follow all the advice on the forum such as varying altitudes, rested pilots, high EXP etc.

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Post #: 406

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 4:26:24 PM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

Yeah, I just watched a show in which pilots described the P-51D as "the perfect plane." I also remember a documentary on modern air racing and one of the most common planes used in racing is a restored P-51 due to its excellent combo of speed and maneuverability. By all accounts it was the ultimate air superiority fighter of the pre-jet age.

GJ, have you tried a game with Symon's air mod yet? I hear good things but haven't tried it myself yet.

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Post #: 407

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 4:33:09 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I concur with Cribtop.

I admit I've mostly been skimming your AAR, as I think you put up a lot of posts in a row a couple of times while I was out of town or otherwise not regularly checking the forums, so maybe my perception is off. But basically: why was it necessary to go "all in" for Singapore, Palembang, and Batavia? Why not just skip them, while keeping them isolated? I understand the need for a shipyard (how big is Soerabaja's? It's easier to take than Batavia due to terrain)... I don't know. I just think maybe there's a reminder in here for the rest of us to just go around the big thorny patch sometimes. This may not have even been one of those times, but it's worth thinking about.

Just a brief note before leaving town...

I tried to bypass those strongpoints, and i tried to simply isolatethem and bomb to oblivion. The problem was that, with the reduced effect pf the 500lb GP bomb, high forts and what seemed to be an unlimited number of supplies those bases couldn't simply be bypasses. The air threat was simply too big. My CAP was unable to provide any decent cover for my TFs, due to the impossibility to defend against His sweeps. If you bypass a base like Singapore you have to be sure that that base is dead, like the allies did with Truk in RL. Otherwise, sooner or later, 2000 planes will pop up there attacking your TFs...and you cannot always use the CVs as escort.

T me that was a forced choice rather than an option

That all makes sense. I think you were forced into the choice due to time constraints? Mr. Kane seems an elite opponent. I'm glad now that I'm playing the people I'm playing rather than taking him up on his offer several months ago when my first Allies PBEM closed

.

Because you can always make sure to reroute around these points/remain under LRCAP umbrellas. For Truk, that means rerouting north and covering via Wake/Saipan/Tinian or south with cover from Hollandia/Peleliu. Eventually, Truk will be out of range for any fighter aircraft to fly there, and any fighters there will be stuck, at which point the danger lessens a bit.

For Singapore, that means continuing to route your stuff around the Borneo/Celebes area while avoiding the Sumatra area. Same deal here with the out of range to transfer, but it's much much much harder to do than with Truk, as that means you pretty much have to capture all of Thailand, Indochina, Borneo/Sarawak, and some of the PI.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 408

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 4:34:47 PM

khyberbill

Posts: 1941
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline

In the game the P-51D is comparable in combat to the P-40K with longer range. When was the last time you saw a special on the P-40K?

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Post #: 409

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 4:34:58 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Another big strategic mistake of mine that I now see is the following:

It's impossible to think to advance on a Burma-DEI vector and on a CENTPAC one without having in mind the real goal to unite these two vectors.
Basically, doing what I did (so to say: concentrate all my major assets in the DEI-SRA advance), means that you're gonna be too stretched on supplies and you're gonna do without any serious repair shipyard.
Why? Because in DBB India produces very little supplies. Basically not enough to support a real late war massive offensive.
The supplies need to be brought up from the western coast to Oz and from Oz to the DEI...a LONG journey...
CT has probably enough (barely) of them, but very few tons of fuel are brought there...
Then the absence of any major repair yard means that, once a major ship is damaged, it's gonna be out of the war for a looooooong time. Much longer than if you used the western coast yards.
Colombo is too small...and it gets crowded too soon.
Sydney has the very same problem, and CT isn't that better.
Say a BB gets 30 flt damage fighting near Singapore... you need to ship it back to Colombo first (which normally is already crowded by damaged CVEs, APAs and CL/DDs), then to CT...and from there to eastern coast... all these movements easily takes a couple of months...plus the repair works...plus the trip back...

If you really want to strangle the empire, and you want to do a double-vector attack (DEI and Pacific), I think you really need to make a plan that, sooner better than later, makes the two vectors combine.

Regarding the India supply issue - India can be used to supply that vector. You must bring in massive amounts of supply to India, and ship it from there. First off, in the early going Cape Town requires fuel to be brought in or else the ships visiting there will run dry. Second, Cape Town can be denuded of supply (keep a little so as not to starve arriving units) easily early on, but continues receiving large supply convoys as time goes on and so is a good long term source of supply. The fuel situation there will also abate during '43 as the arriving convoys will begin including large amounts of fuel. And fuel should not be shipping from Cape Town to India. Abadan can supply all the fuel imports that India needs. You can also, in the early going, send some supply convoys from the Atlantic to Cape Town to bolster what is available for India.

Next is Aden. Initially supply from there is small but will help a bit. As soon as the Med is open, get two or three Liberty ship CS convoys going from the Atlantic to Aden. It's shorter than the Cape Town route and then will be shorter to trans-ship to India. That will probably roughly coincide with no longer needing to send supply convoys from the Atlantic to Cape Town.

Basically, you have to supplement the supply available in Cape Town/Aden that can be sent to India. And in Babes 'C' especially, you have to make sure there is adequate shipping there to move it.

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Post #: 410

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 7:55:01 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

Sorry to see this end. Thanks for sharing hte game with us!

now its beer-thirty!

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Post #: 411

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/20/2014 11:01:47 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

In the game the P-51D is comparable in combat to the P-40K with longer range. When was the last time you saw a special on the P-40K?

That is certainly not the case with a 32k max altitude HR. In my experience the P-51 did very well, including the B and D models.

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Post #: 412

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/21/2014 2:19:01 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
That is certainly not the case with a 32k max altitude HR. In my experience the P-51 did very well, including the B and D models.

Should add here that no P51 was ever piloted by a pilot with under 70EXP. So that might contribute a bit to their success.

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Post #: 413

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/21/2014 4:07:28 PM

comsolut

Posts: 484
Joined: 5/30/2004
Status: offline

Greyjoy,

Thanks for the AAR! Helps players like me, improve their game.

Lee

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Post #: 414

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/21/2014 5:48:36 PM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

Important safety tip:

Never, ever underestimate the Western Poles.

This was like the maginot Line from Malaysia to Paramashiro Jima and there was no Ardennes to skip around it.

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Post #: 415

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/22/2014 5:12:08 AM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

Yep, those Winged Hussars will mess you up!

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Post #: 416

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/23/2014 2:25:10 AM

Mike McCreery

Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline

Congratulations on a great game!!!

Mr. Kane appears to be a great player and he beat you mentally which was what the Japanese were trying to do IRL.

Losing is not the end, it is just the continuation of a long learning experience.

I hope you will come back stronger in the future!

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Post #: 417

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/23/2014 4:25:03 PM

pontiouspilot

Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline

very enjoyable AAR....I want to see a rematch. What HRs would you advocate to re-play Citizen Kane??

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Post #: 418

RE: The towel is thrown - 3/24/2014 2:27:36 AM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Thanks, GreyJoy. Appreciate your vantage from the "wrong" side this time. Tip of the hat to Mr. Kane too-he's been an impressive opponent.

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