Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor?

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/21/2014 4:29:53 PM

fbs

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline

Let's say that you have two forces, and after the initial shoooting and destroying and disabling you only have the remaining weapons below, and all other factors are equal (leadership, morale, etc...):

Side A: 50 PzKpfw I (CV=7 each; total CV = 350 or 0.35)
Side B: 20 JS-1 (CV=9 each; total CV = 180 or 0.18)

So the battle resolution engine tells me 50 obsolete light tanks, if they survive the initial shooting, will easily block 20 heavy tanks, whatever armament the heavy tanks have, and that's because a modern heavy tank is worth only 20% more in CV value than an obsolete light tank...

So the only hope for the heavy tanks is to shoot and destroy/disable the light tanks during shooting phase. But, as each heavy tank only shoots once, 20 JS-1 can only kill 20 PzKpfw I, therefore a force of 70 PzKpfw I will easily block 20 JS-1, even before any shooting is done.

Now, after spending one week to kill 20 light tanks, my 20 JS-1 now attack 50 light tanks, kill 20 more, and are still on a 1:1 combat. Then on the 3rd week my 20 JS-1 once again kill 20 light tanks, so 10 remain and finally the JS-1 move forward in victory, after being stymied for 3 weeks by 70 PzKpfw I. Then they find - oh, no, they find 100 mule carts!! Gah, it will take 5 weeks more to get them mules out of the way... (this last paragraph was a joke, btw)

Another case:

Side A: 800 Rifle Squad (CV=3 each; total CV = 2400 or 2.4)
Side B: 500 Rifle Squad (CV=3 each) + 100 King Tiger (CV=9 each; total CV=2400 or 2.4)

This is a combat with modified CV ratio of 1:1. So this is telling me that instead of scrapping and worrying about 100 King Tiger tanks, I can just grab 300 squads (3,600 men) and this would be equal for the purpose of finding the battle winner.

Now, here's the thing... 300 rifle squads cost as little as 300x7 = 2,100, while 100 King Tigers cost 100x788 = 78,800, or 37 times more expensive than the lowly infantry. If we had used PzKpfw IV it would be pretty similar: 100 PzKpfw IVh cost 31,500, and have the same CV as the 300 infantry.

Notice I'm not talking defense here... from these formulas, it is much cheaper and certain to attack with a tide of lowly rifle squads than with tanks or artillery. And given that each unit only shoots once during the shooting phase (I believe), if I see 100 King Tigers somewhere I just throw infantry or light tanks at them, then only a maximum of 100 of them would be killed, and the Tigers will be forced to retreat...

The only thing these heavy tanks seem to be good for is to kill medium tanks, not to win battles; the medium tanks, to kill light tanks, once again they don't win battles; and the light tanks, to kill machine guns and mortars. Machine guns and mortars are the actual battle winners, because they kill infantry and that's what really hurts the enemy CV...

The whole thing looks a lot like Stratego...

< Message edited by fbs -- 3/21/2014 7:26:16 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/21/2014 6:37:25 PM

GamesaurusRex

Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline

quote:

The whole thing looks a lot like Stratego...

Well that's only because you haven't examined the the insane "win-loss" nonsense the game applies to the commanders. If you had, you would know that 'Chutes and Ladders' is a more appropriate analogy.

(in reply to fbs)

Post #: 2

RE: Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/26/2014 10:19:41 PM

HermanGraf

Posts: 64
Joined: 6/17/2009
Status: offline

Reading stuff like this and other posts really discourages nubs like me from learning the game. It seems so broken :(. For 70 $$ i thought it would have been a clean and well polished game. Oh Well. this weekend i finally have some time, ill spend all saturday trying to learn this massive monster.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 3

RE: Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/26/2014 10:36:11 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

Make a scenario where those monolithic units with equal CV fight, all other factors equal. Would be interesting to see the results.

(in reply to HermanGraf)

Post #: 4

RE: Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/27/2014 12:29:21 AM

fbs

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HermanGraf

Reading stuff like this and other posts really discourages nubs like me from learning the game. It seems so broken :(. For 70 $$ i thought it would have been a clean and well polished game. Oh Well. this weekend i finally have some time, ill spend all saturday trying to learn this massive monster.

Well, keep in mind, HermanGraf, many people here are grognards, that will be outraged for the smallest things -- like expecting increased fuel needs for Italian units during winter because they need to thaw more water to make pasta (btw, there's a game that has that rule about pasta, I'm not joking).

So if you listen to the turf wars and the trivialities, you'll end up with the impression that nothing works and a Tamagochi is a more realistic simulation. But that's incorrect: almost everybody here, me included, have an incredible appreciation and deep affection for the game, and would pay many times more for it.

So, have no doubt, this is an amazing and unique game with a baffling depth and level, and you find the developers / scenario designers / tester take this as a work of love. The amount of detail is exquisite, and the vehemence that people argue their positions only speaks of their dedication.

If you ever want to learn about the complexities of WW2, this is your game.

Now, back to the fuel needs for Italian units...

(in reply to HermanGraf)

Post #: 5

RE: Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/27/2014 6:29:27 AM

gingerbread

Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline

No no, the Italians need more water points, not fuel points.

And it's not the best rule in that game, that honour goes to: 'Dead camels may be transported by air. Live camels may not.'

(in reply to fbs)

Post #: 6

RE: Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/27/2014 6:35:55 PM

GamesaurusRex

Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline

And you will find that the toughest scenario you will face related to this game is the "FW" scenario...

(Forum Warfare)...

But both game and forum ARE entertaining !

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/27/2014 7:37:38 PM >

(in reply to gingerbread)

Post #: 7

RE: Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/30/2014 11:21:10 PM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

The CVs as you're describing them are basically just [device type * CV multiplier for that type].

Yes, it is possible for a lot of infantry squads to have as much displayed CV as a few Tiger tanks, but the way the simulation works (as far as I understand it) is that these devices are virtually lined up in neat little rows as though it was the Napoleonic age, and then the devices all shoot each other, taking into account the various anti-soft / anti-hard and armor values. As such, while 800 rifle squads might have as much CV as 500 squads and 100 Tigers, the latter force is still going to have some sort of upper hand during combat because the squads won't have nearly as much chance of landing a disabling or destroying shot on the Tigers.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 8

RE: Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/31/2014 12:24:05 AM

swkuh

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline

Amazing to think of resolving combats shot by shot for two hundred turns or so. What were developers thinking? Not the way I roll.

If I want to know what the resolution algorithm does I can set up an experiment to see.

< Message edited by rrbill -- 3/31/2014 1:27:35 AM >

(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 9

RE: Does the CV Thingie Benefit Infantry over Armor? - 3/31/2014 2:52:25 AM

fbs

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

The CVs as you're describing them are basically just [device type * CV multiplier for that type].

Yes, it is possible for a lot of infantry squads to have as much displayed CV as a few Tiger tanks, but the way the simulation works (as far as I understand it) is that these devices are virtually lined up in neat little rows as though it was the Napoleonic age, and then the devices all shoot each other, taking into account the various anti-soft / anti-hard and armor values. As such, while 800 rifle squads might have as much CV as 500 squads and 100 Tigers, the latter force is still going to have some sort of upper hand during combat because the squads won't have nearly as much chance of landing a disabling or destroying shot on the Tigers.

Correct, but the problem is that I understand they only shoot once. So even if 500 infantry cannot put a dent in a Tiger, the Tigers can only kill so much infantry after one shot, and at the end the thing decides who won the battle based on sum of remaining CV alone.

Now, if one would reason that a Tiger tank should shoot more than once in a battle, then the scenario would turn completely...

I think a more realistic approach would be to keep shooting until one side's losses exceed their morale -- only then decide by remaining CV. That would make a low-morale defender (or attacker) to run away early, and would make a determined attacker or defender inflict more losses on the other side.

< Message edited by fbs -- 3/31/2014 4:02:10 AM >

(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 10