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6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 3:22:43 AM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:51:17 PM >
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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 4:01:33 AM   
zuluhour


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The best of the best is here. I would have confused ya.

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 4:02:45 AM   
zuluhour


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Ask what you are trying to do.
Amphibious? transport-strategic?

sorry just finished a bad billiards night.

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 3/22/2014 5:06:24 AM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 4:17:05 AM   
Alfred

 

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You should take a screenshot of the unit question and post it on the forum.  That will make it possible to follow exactly what your problem without relying upon your quite inaccurate descriptions.

1.  On the regt screen, on the left hand side it will give you a figure for troop load and a different figure for cargo load.  As you don't understand the micromanagement of loading, you need to look for vessels which have sufficient carrying capacity in those two distinct areas to embark the regt.  Each vessel lists the amount it can carry in its troop hold and its cargo hold.

2.  You will not find an Allied xAK vessel which has a 2277 troop capacity.

3.  You will not find an Allied xAP vessel which has a 5819 cargo capacity.

4.  Ergo you will need more than 1 vessel in the Task Force.

5.  Transport Task Forces are more efficient than Amphibious Task Forces in moving units.  Which one you are trying to use is another one of those details you fail to provide.

6.  I have no idea what you are referring to when you state "I can only assume that means 5+ in rule 6.3.2.3".  That table is for advance users and can be disregarded by 99% of players.  For absolute basics, just read pages 110-111 of the manual.

Alfred

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 5:22:18 AM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:51:46 PM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 5:52:30 AM   
Alfred

 

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You obviously haven't read what I posted.  Or alternatively are quite incapable of comprehending the very direct answer I gave you.  Nor did I say that AK can't load troops and AP can't load cargo.  That is simply a creation of your own imagination.

I repeat.

1.  Look at regt screen.  It tells you what you need.  See screenshot on page 182 of the manual.

2.  Look at ship screen.  It tells you what that ship can carry.  See screenshot on page 87 of the manual.

3.  Include sufficient ships with aggregate carrying capacities in each discrete category to move regt in question.


When you say it is a simple transport mission from San Fran to Pearl how exactly do you expect anyone to have any confidence that you know the difference between the different transportation modes, let alone the further complication of dealing with restricted units.

But you continue to not provide accurate details, which would be solved by providing relevant screenshots, because being repetitive is so conducive to eliciting assistance.


Alfred

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 6:01:49 AM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:52:08 PM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 6:22:51 AM   
Alfred

 

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Why do you keep on making reference to terms which are not necessary to master (but good for those players who do master them) and disregard what I say.

Assuming the regt has a troop load cost of 2277 and a cargo load cost of 5819, and it is in strategic mode and not restricted:

1.  Create a Transport Task Force.
2.  At the ship selection screen, filter to only show AP
3.  The screen will list the troop (and cargo capacity if any) of the available ships.
4.  Select sufficient AP ships until you have approximately 2500 troop carrying capacity.  If you don't want any "freeboard", just stop at 2277 troop capacity.
5.  Then change filter to show only AK whose cargo carrying capacity will be listed.
6.  Select sufficient AK until you have approximately 6500 cargo carrying capacity.  Again if stingy, just stop at 5819 cargo carrying capacity.

Alfred

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 6:31:16 AM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

Trying to figure the exact number of cargo vessels to load an infantry regiment.
The rules are of absolutelly little help as they seem to only make loading harder to understand. I have examined the Cargo capacity of the unit and it stands at 5819 (I can only assume that means 5+ in rule 6.3.2.3). I have been able to determine that the troop load is 2277.

Loading this force on xAK's is difficult to figure out, not that I can't just grab a dozen of them and do it but I'd like to be a bit more precise. I have discovered that its NOT a matter of adding the two (Cargo + Troop) capacities and finding vessels able to hold that much. NO its a lot more complex and after many trial and errors I have just about given up. The rule book was of no value in this endevor and spending countless hours rereading the same 'ol vague rule makes one really regret the purchase.

Can someone help me to understand how to meet the capacity without making a 10 vessel TF and then after loading starts hittting the min ship buttton? Why can't it be just a simple issue why must it be so full of metaphores and so vague?


If you look at the lower left hand column on the regiment's display screen, you'll see the Troop Load Cost and the Cargo Load Cost. For a US Army infantry regiment, Troop Load Cost will typically be around 3700 and Cargo Load Cost will be about 2300. (Other nationalities' infantry regiments/brigades will usually have a lower Cargo Load Cost, as they were less generously equipped with artillery, AFVs, and motorized support, which all loads in cargo space.)

Towards the bottom of the right hand column of the ship display you'll find the Troop Capacity and Cargo Capacity of the ship. Most Allied xAK type ships have only Cargo Capacity, so they're not a good choice for loading an infantry unit. You're better off using AP or xAP types. A US Navy Harris class AP has Troop Capacity of 1700 and Cargo Capacity of 1467 (I'm using DaBigBabes-C mod with reduced cargo capacities, so stock Cargo Capacities are higher.) Civilian xAP types generally have a higher ratio of Troop Capacity to Cargo Capacity.

You need enough ships so their total Troop Capacity and Cargo Capacity exceed the Troop Load Cost and Cargo Load Cost of the unit being loaded. You could load the USA infantry regiment (Troop/Cargo cost of 3700/2300) on three Harris Class APs (total Troop/Cargo capacity of 5100/4401) with room to spare, which will usually be filled with supplies. Two Harris class APs would not have enough Troop Capacity for the regiment.

You can load Troops in Cargo capacity and vice versa, but there is a loading penalty for mismatched loads. The Allies can load troops in Cargo Capacity at 6X normal cost, so you can put a 500 Troop Load Cost unit in a xAK with 3000 Cargo Capacity. To load the USA infantry regiment cited above on xAKs, you would need a total Cargo Capacity of at least 24,500 (3700 * 6 + 2300), and the unit would suffer more disruption loaded in cargo space than it would on an AP.

Cargo loads in Troop Capacity at 3X normal cost, so you can put 500 supply points or Cargo Load Cost in 1500 Troop Capacity. Japanese have the same penalty for loading cargo in troop space, but Japanese troops can put up with more crowding so their penalty for loading troops in cargo capacity is only 3X. Also, most Japanese xAKs have 200 - 300 Troop Capacity along with their Cargo Capacity. (These penalties apply to AK and AP type ships: the penalties for other types of ships may vary. There's a table in the manual with all the details.)

Everything above assumes you're loading the regiment in a transport TF. If you're loading in an amphibious TF, the ship capacities are reduced by 20%. The regiment would still fit in three Harris class APs. Historically, a US Navy transport division would normally consist of three APs or APAs, and one AK or AKA. Each AP could carry a combat loaded reinforced infantry battalion with enough supplies for 5-7 days of combat, while the AK could carry enough supplies to support the regiment for 30 days after major combat had ended.

- Mark

< Message edited by msieving1 -- 3/22/2014 7:39:59 AM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 6:51:43 AM   
LoBaron


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edited. msieving1 was faster.

(and Alfred, obviousely...)

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 3/22/2014 7:52:45 AM >


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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 6:52:46 AM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:52:40 PM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 6:57:57 AM   
LoBaron


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Suggest you post a screenshot. Should load IMHO.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 3/22/2014 8:00:43 AM >


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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 7:06:42 AM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:53:08 PM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 8:42:35 AM   
LoBaron


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The should/could/would usually is the result of insufficient information provided...

Alfred asked for screenshots in his very first response, if you want optimal support I suggest you comply.

There are reasons for what happens in the game, without screens all we can do is guess. One reason for example could be that you had replacements and/or upgrades set to on and received some while loading. What do I know?

Btw, if you are easily frustrated just because something is not completely clear on first glance this might be the wrong game for you.

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 8:48:44 AM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

...let me put this in simpler terms;

Created an xAP (2505 Troop Capacity) and an xAK (6050 Cargo Capacity) single Transport TF.
34th Inf Regiment beeing loaded has a 2277 troop load cost and a 5819 Cargo load cost. Unit is in Strat mode and all the common conditions for transport have been met.

I COULD NOT LOAD ALL OF THE UNIT! WHY? What is the necessary formula and where can I find it in the rules?

What do you mean when you say, "If you don't want any "freeboard", just stop at 2277 troop capacity?" I can come close but rarely if ever get exact. Besides I can't even load the whole unit with excess...


I usually start the load, set the TF to Do Not Unload, and wait until everything is loaded before setting the destination. Otherwise the TF will often take off before everything loads. Once loading is complete you can set the destination and let the TF unload.

I tried recreating your case: in Scenario 1, I loaded the 34th Infantry Regiment (Troop/Cargo cost 2277/5819) at San Francisco in a TF made up of xAP Santa Barbara (Troop/Cargo Capacity 2505/1250) and xAK Admiral Cole (Cargo Capacity 4800). The regiment loaded with no problems. I think the solution is just to make sure the unit is fully loaded before allowing the TF to sail.

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 9:01:29 AM   
Alfred

 

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Read Don Bowen's two posts and my single post in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3356783&mpage=1&key=loading%2Clcu&#3356848

Don explains why it is not a 100% efficient loading process and I detail why some excess capacity, or "freeboard" as I have referred to in today's thread, is a good thing.

There are some players, and I am not limiting this comment only to the OP, who demand absolute, cast iron formulae so that they have 100% control over every single minute aspect of this game.  This game will never satisfy those players because it is simply not structured like that.  It is a bit too close to reality in which perfection is not possible.

Alfred

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 10:13:46 AM   
Banzan

 

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I think there may be some bug with loading troops. I was still trying to figure it out before posting about it, but sometimes parts of your troops are left behind who shouldn't.
As an example, an amphibious TF (~300% of the needed troop and cargo space) left 112 mot. support and one gun of the division at the harbour.

Happend twice already in my current game (latest beta), but i never noticed early enough, so i had no savegame for michaelm to check. Looking (and saving) now everytime i build an amphibious to see if i can repeat it.

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 12:34:36 PM   
Gaspote


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Banzan

I think there may be some bug with loading troops. I was still trying to figure it out before posting about it, but sometimes parts of your troops are left behind who shouldn't.
As an example, an amphibious TF (~300% of the needed troop and cargo space) left 112 mot. support and one gun of the division at the harbour.

Happend twice already in my current game (latest beta), but i never noticed early enough, so i had no savegame for michaelm to check. Looking (and saving) now everytime i build an amphibious to see if i can repeat it.


Yep I noticed the same thing but sometimes, I tried an all the units load even with the troop loading screen showing one won't be fully load.

I noticed small units take the biggest ships sometimes so the biggest units have to take the smaller and can't load fully. I know I load all my transports one by one to avoid those bugs.

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 2:02:08 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Bug or no bug its very easy to deal with. Just load the fragment on the following turn and merge it with the first TF. All you do is lose a day. No biggie...been like this for as long as I can remember.

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 3:13:38 PM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:53:41 PM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 3:26:08 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013
...let me put this in simpler terms;

As Alfred suggests, everything you want to know about basic load calculations is in 6.3.2.2, 6.3.2.3, and 6.3.2.4. You could make a spread sheet to do the calculations yourself, but since the game does it anyway, that’s sort of a purposeless exercise. The rules are in the manual, in black and white, and if one wants to go with manual calculations, more power to them. The 34th IR has a (game calculated) load cost of 2277/5819. If one grunts through a manual calculation, one gets a load cost of .. wait for it .. 2277/5819.

Things do not load point-by point; they load device-by-device. A US infantry squad (device) is 13 points. One can’t load half a squad. Things also load in unit-sized groups, or “packages”. The load algorithm attempts to plop in a package of 27 squads (roughly a Bn), if that’s too big it tries it in packages of 9 (roughly a Coy) and then in packages of 3 (roughly a platoon).

If one does not have enough troop space for the “troops”, one can put troops into cargo space at the “troops in cargo” cross load penalty. This does not show up on the LCU screen as load cost alternatives, because the game has no way of knowing what ships, or load conditions, one is using. But the penalties are clearly defined and one can add a couple columns to their spreadsheet and get an exact value if they wish.

For the above reasons, an exact convergence of capacity and cost is not possible. There’s obviously a bit of fuzziness at the margins of LCU loading. However, the basics are rather simple. For “transport” TFs, make a TF with “troop” capacity a bit more than your “troop” load cost, and a “cargo” capacity a bit more than your “cargo” load cost. I routinely use 10%, been doing it for years and have never, ever, had an issue. For “assault” TFs, the same rules apply, but recognize that cargo cap is reduced by 20%. Again, many years of use with no issues whatsoever.

Msieving1 describes darn near the exact TF that people routinely use, day-in-day-out, for many years to hump the 34th IR from SFO. An xAP with troop cap 2505 > 2277 (so all the troops can fit) and an added xAK so that the combined cargo cap is 1250 + 4800 = 6050 > 5819.

Suggest one reads msieving1’s posts very, very carefully. There’s gold in them thar hills and some excellent, practical, advice on loading.

If you are not getting the same results that literally hundreds of people have been getting over several years, you are doing something strange, or pushing some different buttons.

Screen shot (or savegame) is mandatory for any further evaluation.


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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 3:38:21 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

...let me put this in simpler terms;

Created an xAP (2505 Troop Capacity) and an xAK (6050 Cargo Capacity) single Transport TF.
34th Inf Regiment beeing loaded has a 2277 troop load cost and a 5819 Cargo load cost. Unit is in Strat mode and all the common conditions for transport have been met.

I COULD NOT LOAD ALL OF THE UNIT! WHY? What is the necessary formula and where can I find it in the rules?

What do you mean when you say, "If you don't want any "freeboard", just stop at 2277 troop capacity?" I can come close but rarely if ever get exact. Besides I can't even load the whole unit with excess...


Units in strat mode cannot load into Amphibious TFs - try using a Transport TF. Also, when in strat mode everything is loaded as cargo so you do not need any 'Troop' space. Make a Transport cargo with all cargo space and load them up - all extra crago space will be loaded with supplies so don't worry about having too much. Use these only for moving units between large, safe, bases as units in strat mode cannot unload easily from transports. Strat mode / Transport TFs are for moving a lot of men in less space and without using higher priority APs. I use it a lot as Japan when moving troops from Japan to main bases - and then amphib TFs to move them forward to the front lines.

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 3:51:40 PM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:54:15 PM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 3:56:20 PM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:54:35 PM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 4:24:02 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013
Yea we get it Symon, blah, blah, blah, guess and then throw in a few AK's for good measure. As far as rules 6.3.2.2, 6.3.2.3 & 6.3.2.4 they are absolutelly worthless overstating the obvious, "troops can be loaded on ships..." and failing completely to instruct on how exactly to do that. All I can conclude is what I have always maintained, that programmers and game designers need to stay out of the rule writting business as they are brilliant at one thing and miserable at the other and the yes men around them rarely tell them the truth.

Okey dokey Bunny3013. I have you calibrated. You are nothing but a troll weasel. You are outta here. Go off and do porn websites or whatever 9 year olds do when mom and dad ain't looking.

You are cut off. JWE

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 4:29:57 PM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 4:29:19 PM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 4:38:59 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

Real mature Semen, real mature.


And yet you have the answer to your problem in your own sig line, Mr. 169 posts.

(""Half assed," is the source of most problems.")

One of the main designers of the game FULLY answered your question, after others with immense knowledge did so first, and all you can do is dig in and double-down. This is a friendly place that will help those in need. You've been helped. Since you don't seem to understand that it may be the case that this isn't the game for you. If you have trouble loading TFs, one of the most basic tasks, your head will explode when you encounter a carrier battle.

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 4:41:06 PM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:55:00 PM >

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 4:57:39 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013
Aaaaah and the moose couldn't resist a dig while he tells me in the same breath how friendly a place this is.

Most people on this forum are polite. I am not. I am a developer. I'm your worst nightmare. I know how the game works. You are a worthless piece of feces. Even friendly people recognize your stink. Think you should go elsewhere and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.

Green button. JWE

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RE: 6.3.2.3 - 3/22/2014 5:04:33 PM   
gunny3013

 

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< Message edited by gunny3013 -- 3/23/2014 9:55:17 PM >

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