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Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/24/2014 5:00:30 PM   
JohnSmith


Posts: 36
Joined: 10/4/2013
Status: offline 		Yes, a slightly different topic here!

Obviously we all share an interest in naval and military history/simulations, so I thought why not also share our book interests within this topic.

Ever since reading Red Storm Rising (which I'm sure everybody here has read, if not get it!), I've been an avid fan of the techno-thriller genre, and more specifically 'counter-factual history'/current events.

So can anybody recommend any books on a 'WW3' or USSR/Russia vs NATO type conflict in the modern day/and or cold war era? Would love to hear opinions!
Post #: 1
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/24/2014 5:40:30 PM   
deepdive

 

Posts: 125
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		Apart from Tom Clancy`s Red Storm and Hunt for Red October i recomend;

"Hostile Waters" by Peter Huchthausen, Igor Kurdin and Alan White.

"Typhoon" by Robin White.

"Submarine" by John Wingate.

"Blind mans bluff" by Sherry Sontag and Christopher Drew.

"Raise the Red Dawn" by Bart Davis, This last one really boiled my blood.

Bjørn

< Message edited by deepdive -- 3/24/2014 6:43:11 PM >

(in reply to JohnSmith)
Post #: 2
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/24/2014 5:47:24 PM   
blh42

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		"DEFCON 1" by Joe Weber

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Post #: 3
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/24/2014 5:50:08 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		More land warfare-oriented:

Harold Coyle: Team Yankee

http://www.amazon.com/Team-Yankee-Harold-Coyle/dp/0425110427

Ralph Peters: Red Army

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Army-Ralph-Peters/dp/1451636695/ref=la_B000APTSH6_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1395683260&sr=1-1

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RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/24/2014 6:58:29 PM   
jdkbph


Posts: 339
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: CT, USA
Status: offline 		Aside from those already mentioned....

General Sir John Hackett's The Third World War is interesting. A somewhat dry read but (supposedly) very accurate technically.

I also mentioned The Sixth Battle by Barrett Tillman in another thread.

And one I haven't read but would like to if I can find it in some sort of e-book format is The War that Never Was by Michael A. Palmer.

JD

< Message edited by jdkbph -- 3/24/2014 7:59:05 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/24/2014 9:23:20 PM   
JohnSmith


Posts: 36
Joined: 10/4/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jdkbph

Aside from those already mentioned....

General Sir John Hackett's The Third World War is interesting. A somewhat dry read but (supposedly) very accurate technically.

I also mentioned The Sixth Battle by Barrett Tillman in another thread.

And one I haven't read but would like to if I can find it in some sort of e-book format is The War that Never Was by Michael A. Palmer.

JD



The Sixth Battle sounds like an interesting read! I'll definitely be sure to check it out! Cheers!

(in reply to jdkbph)
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RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/24/2014 9:32:49 PM   
GBOATZ

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/22/2013
Status: offline 		Warhead by Robert F. Baker (Jun 1981) -
Day of the Cheetah is a 1989 -Dale Brown
Flight of the Old Dog Dale Brown 1987 (I also have the Megafortress game that was created from the book)

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Post #: 7
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/24/2014 9:35:04 PM   
NakedWeasel


Posts: 500
Joined: 1/14/2014
Status: offline 		I've never read it, as it is a bit difficult to find, but I have heard more 'pooner's and grognards of our ilk suggest the Sixth Battle even more than Clancy, and Bond.

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View them as a single foe
And so fight on!

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RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/25/2014 1:48:40 AM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		Larry Bond has quite a few, have read some of his older stuff, Red Phoenix, Cauldron etc. He wrote the naval battle scenes in Red Storm Rising. He also invented or was instrumental in the original Harpoon board game - yes cardboard miniatures, rulers etc, can you imagine! He apparently used Harpoon to model many of the battle scenes he describes in his books.

Here is the web page, he has quite a few new ones which I haven't read, but the older ones are well worth your time. http://www.larry-bond.com/books.htm

B

(in reply to NakedWeasel)
Post #: 9
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/25/2014 1:56:02 AM   
NakedWeasel


Posts: 500
Joined: 1/14/2014
Status: offline 		Yeah, back in the late 90's, a bunch of us Harpooner's appealed to both Bond and Clancy for their input, and their blessing in allowing us to recreate their stories as Harpoon scenarios. As I remember it, Bond did not respond to our request, and Tom Clancy replied with a rather terse, "No. Develop your own content." I was rather put out with Clancy over this.

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Though surrounded by a great number of enemies
View them as a single foe
And so fight on!

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RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/25/2014 6:59:46 AM   
NickD

 

Posts: 163
Joined: 2/14/2014
Status: offline 		Arc Light by Eric L. Harry covers a limited nuclear war between the US and post-Soviet Russia which is followed by a full-scale NATO invasion of Russia. It's pretty good read if you can swallow the storyline (which gets rather silly once NATO forces cross the Russian border), though there isn't much on naval combat from memory. The coverage of the nuclear war is rather chilling.

While not a work of fiction, Peter Hennessy's book The Secret State provides some fascinating - and terrifying - accounts of the British government's plans for fighting a nuclear war with the USSR in the period between the 1950s and 1970s.

< Message edited by NickD -- 3/25/2014 8:15:44 AM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 3/25/2014 9:56:48 AM   
DeltaIV


Posts: 161
Joined: 3/3/2014
From: EUCCP
Status: offline 		All the books I'v read and consider important were already mentioned. There's also a bunch of Russian authors that wrote books on this topic (and were also translated to English), i will post the names after i find them in the attic.

Also note that the classic "Red Storm Rising" was co-authored by the Larry Bond and i think that these epic air/naval combats were actually his product/design. I've read some other Clancy's books and didn't consider them that much interesting. Red Storm is actually only one that i've kept.

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Post #: 12
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/10/2014 9:59:07 PM   
GBOATZ

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/22/2013
Status: offline 		I've mentioned this title before and believe it would be perfect for a scenario for Command:

"Warhead by Robert F. Baker (Jun 1981)"

Premise: Navy Boomer is en route home from a patrol when their families aboard a plane are hi-jacked to a soviet sponsored middle eastern client who demands the release of certain political prisoners and lands the plane near a Soviet military base. Soviets seem to drag their feet at either offering assistance or allowing American Delta force to land a rescue contingent on soviet soil. Frustrated and fed up when the terrorist start killing airline passengers to show their resolve, the Captain of the Boomer, who's wife and kids are among the hostages tells the Soviets, either allow American Delta Force to land or they will target a Soviet city for annihilation. The American President, U.S. military leadership, US Ambassador and even most of the boomers crew as well as the Soviets are appalled at this reaction! Despite the protests from all directions, the Boomer captain and most of his tactical crew are adamant and willing to suffer the consequences to save their families. Some negotiation is begun but a number of Russian hard liners suddenly see in this situation a way to test their ability to defeat an American Boomer as they have determined the boomers approximate location from their broadcasts and has sent a task force to intercept it! The American President warns the Soviets that it would be a mistake as the boomer is very able to protect itself and people will be hurt! The Soviets ignore his warning and bear down on the boomer with their task force! What happens next? Who wins the naval battle? And what of the hostages? Gotta read the book to find out!


(in reply to JohnSmith)
Post #: 13
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/10/2014 10:51:46 PM   
tommo8993

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		The cold war trilogy by Harvey Black.

The Red effect, The Black effect and The Blue effect.

Focused on a war gone hot in 1984, mainly focuses on the British army, very detailed, very descriptive and a real page turner.

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Post #: 14
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/13/2014 4:04:57 PM   
Werewolf13

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel

I've never read it, as it is a bit difficult to find, but I have heard more 'pooner's and grognards of our ilk suggest the Sixth Battle even more than Clancy, and Bond.


You can find it here: But it WILL cost you - selling at a premium it seems.

The Sixth Battle

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Post #: 15
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/13/2014 5:25:17 PM   
chrisol

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 1/5/2008
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline 		Just thinking, I'm sure I didn't pay much for The Sixth Battle when I picked it up recently...

...oh, I see



Chris

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Post #: 16
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/13/2014 7:49:40 PM   
SSN754planker


Posts: 448
Joined: 10/2/2013
Status: offline 		Ive read every book mentioned in this thread and "The War That Never Was" still tops them all. It is just that good.

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Post #: 17
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/17/2014 10:18:59 AM   
hawkeye_de

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline 		Has somebody already read the 'Fourth Crisis', The battle for Taiwan? http://www.amazon.de/Fourth-Crisis-The-Battle-Taiwan-ebook/dp/B00B1MR7P2/ref=pd_sim_kinc_8?ie=UTF8&refRID=1S3B8PBJQ4A6VJDNN3M2

< Message edited by hawkeye_de -- 5/17/2014 11:20:59 AM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/19/2014 8:48:25 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326


quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel

I've never read it, as it is a bit difficult to find, but I have heard more 'pooner's and grognards of our ilk suggest the Sixth Battle even more than Clancy, and Bond.


You can find it here: But it WILL cost you - selling at a premium it seems.

The Sixth Battle


One of the books I have read several times. Well written.

_____________________________


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Post #: 19
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/19/2014 10:47:55 AM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		Can recommend both the sixth battle and the war that never was. The latter is particularly addictive to harpoon players and is brill

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Post #: 20
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/19/2014 4:04:04 PM   
Dabo

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 5/25/2004
Status: offline 		Loved the 6th battle although an healthy dose of suspension of disbelief is needed: a single CV battle group against pretty much the whole Russian feet and the whole long range naval aviation in…. South Africa.

I didn’t like Arc light much: 2000 nukes had detonated over the US and pretty much everything goes on normally, two US corps conquer Russia in a fortnight with the Russians not firing a single 1kt arty round. Nuclear warheads disabled in flight and BTW they should have had impeached the second president not the first for clear and present idiocy.

On a similar topic Thrinity’s Child by William Prochnau is much better, scary as hell (there was an HBO movie based on the book called By dawn’s early light)

(in reply to chesmart)
Post #: 21
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/24/2014 7:21:55 PM   
mikeCK

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hawkeye_de

Has somebody already read the 'Fourth Crisis', The battle for Taiwan? http://www.amazon.de/Fourth-Crisis-The-Battle-Taiwan-ebook/dp/B00B1MR7P2/ref=pd_sim_kinc_8?ie=UTF8&refRID=1S3B8PBJQ4A6VJDNN3M2


Yeah, it's garbage. Oddly written as well

(in reply to hawkeye_de)
Post #: 22
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/25/2014 3:30:20 AM   
Currahee

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 5/25/2014
Status: offline 		I think I have read the vast majority of 'WWIII literature' out there.

Red Storm Rising - one of my favorites. Like any good Command/Harpoon player I have read it at least six times (and I'm not even out of High School yet...)
The War that Never Was - excellent (and detached - I prefer stories about global war to exclude romance) story of naval warfare in the 1989 time frame(I think - some things in it however weren't in existence until 1991, like the SLAM-ER)
The Third World War - dated, written back in the 70s, but still good, chilling, and authentic. Even if it is older than me.
Cheiftains - decent until the end. Really? A Nuke? That's how your going to end the story? How about I burn the book? That would convey the same effect. And the author believes too much in the power of artillery. I mean, he has like half of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment wiped out by concentrated artillery fire. And he thinks all Americans are idiotic Custer-like commanders - which is understandable, I guess, since the writer is British.
Arc Light - scary nuclear warfare scenario, and then we invade Russia and somehow make the surrender. Now, I believe in the power of the US military as much as any other American, but the conquest of Russia seemed a bit...quick. Of course, the bulk of Russia's army was trapped in the East by radiation zones, so maybe it's not too implausible.
Protect And Defend - We (NATO, if I recall) defend Siberia from China after anarchists topple the Russian gov't. It was a little far fetched.
The Red Effect Series - Cheiftans 2.0 (w/out the stupid ending). Little naval combat, however, but since I am mainly a ground warfare guy I liked it. It chronicles the Soviet invasion of Western Europe in 1984. It is a very good series and I recommend it.
Red Army - a good story from the other side. Yeah, the sovs make all the breaks it seems, but that was kind of the point of the story. Made me glad that the war never went hot.
When Angels Wept - a counter-factual history of the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was disappointed the author seemed to want to devote 2/3 of the book to biographies of Kennedy and Khrushchev, but in the actual nuclear war part, it was authentic and frightening. Recommended.
Red Thrust - less a story than an hard core analysis of the Red Army, but still a good and realistic read.
Red Phoenix - good story of the NKs invasion of the south in 1988(?).
The Sixth battle - as mentioned before in this thread, another classic. It deals mostly with naval warfare. I wanted to kill the national security adviser however ("These world wide soviet naval deployments to cut off South Africa from the world and take it over are in no way threatening! We should take no action until it is too late so we can lose a carrier battle group to the entire concentrated forces of the soviet navy!") Oh, has anyone noticed how the author links his book to Red Phoenix by mentioning the F-16 pilot from that book?
Thunder of Erebus - now the superpowers want Antarctica. I haven't read it yet, but from flipping through it is seems a little fanciful - F-15Gs, soviet cruise missiles carrying torpedoes, magic mineral that zaps ICBMs. Heck, the Aurora conspiracy plane even makes an appearance.
Fourth Crisis - I wouldn't say it's garbage. I mean, it is an ebook, but it wasn't idiotic. Maybe some things were convenient (like the nuke threat at the end) but it was worth whatever I paid for it - which was less that $3.00 if I recall.
Red Tide: Chinese Invasion of Seattle - The first book was surprisingly good and actually made me think the Chinese could plausibly pull it off. Then the author wanted you to believe that a rag tag team of about ten escaped US Army Rangers could defang the entire Chinese perimeter, sink a Chinese amphibious ship, and liberate a college campus. And he has the 7th Infantry Division, equipped solely with .22 rifles and shotguns, somehow hold off a Chinese armored battalion. Sure, they suffered like 90% casualties, but still...
First Clash - the absolute finest book on modern (fictional) ground warfare I have ever read. Recommended, but only if you like land warfare and can pay attention to what is actually happening - it took me a few reads to truly appreciates its beauty.

I have exhausted my immediate knowledge of WWIII literature, and its late where I live. Btw, has anyone read Choke Point, First Salvo, or Show of Force by Charles Taylor? Are they any good?

< Message edited by Currahee -- 5/25/2014 7:27:49 AM >

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RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/25/2014 11:22:13 AM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline

quote:

And the author believes too much in the power of artillery


And what's wrong with that!


quote:


First Clash - the absolute finest book on modern (fictional) ground warfare I have ever read. Recommended, but only if you like land warfare and can pay attention to what is actually happening - it took me a few reads to truly appreciates its beauty.


I remember reading that when it was a training pub issued to all officers going through their training (Cdn) but that was a couple years ago... Very chilling when your reading your job description..

B

(in reply to Currahee)
Post #: 24
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/25/2014 3:03:32 PM   
Currahee

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 5/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98



quote:

And the author believes too much in the power of artillery


And what's wrong with that!


quote:


First Clash - the absolute finest book on modern (fictional) ground warfare I have ever read. Recommended, but only if you like land warfare and can pay attention to what is actually happening - it took me a few reads to truly appreciates its beauty.


I remember reading that when it was a training pub issued to all officers going through their training (Cdn) but that was a couple years ago... Very chilling when your reading your job description..

B


1. Point taken...but the writer still has it seem that the Russians don't need T-72s or fighter jets - they just need a whole lot of BM-21s, Smerches, and Gvodikas, and commence a rolling barrage to the Rhine. And some body bags to clean up the mess. Well, maybe more like the 3rd Guards Shock Broom and Dustpan Army, considering the effects of artillery on the human body.

2. I think they even wrote sequel, with Canadian super tanks (the Chimera - bonus points to anyone who knows what that actually is) and Leopard 2s - late cold war stuff- but it unfortunately was never published for the public. But yes, the original was written, well, like a field manual. Didn't stop them from mass marketing it.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 25
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/25/2014 4:18:19 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline
quote:

with Canadian super tanks (the Chimera - bonus points to anyone who knows what that actually is


The Chimera was a fictional Tank Destroyer based on Leopard 1 chassis and a Leopard 2 gun. The fictional Corps we used for Staff exercises back then (Corps 86), had a Divisional Anti-Tank Battalion, with two Companies of TOW launchers under armour and one company of TD's, I think it had 16, can't really remember. Problem is that it was a fish our of water and we never really had a doctrinal (and certainly not a financial) reason for it.

B

(in reply to Currahee)
Post #: 26
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/25/2014 5:17:31 PM   
Currahee

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 5/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

quote:

with Canadian super tanks (the Chimera - bonus points to anyone who knows what that actually is


The Chimera was a fictional Tank Destroyer based on Leopard 1 chassis and a Leopard 2 gun. The fictional Corps we used for Staff exercises back then (Corps 86), had a Divisional Anti-Tank Battalion, with two Companies of TOW launchers under armour and one company of TD's, I think it had 16, can't really remember. Problem is that it was a fish our of water and we never really had a doctrinal (and certainly not a financial) reason for it.

B


Well, I walked right into that one. Probably should have noticed the Canadian flag...
Anyway, '5 points' awarded...although something tells me you could take me to school on anything to do with the Cold War.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 27
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/25/2014 7:08:21 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		Sorry bout that. Just retired out of uniform, almost 38 yrs. My last job was teaching at our Army staff College . Oh, and I was artillery hence the 'Gunner' in the name.

I think the sequel you spoke about a couple of posts back is 'Crisis in Zefra'. It not as good in my opinion and paints a different type of conflict. Its available public domain.

http://www.kschroeder.com/foresight-consulting/crisis-in-zefra/Crisis-in-Zefra-e.pdf

This may not be the one your thinking about, but if you have a title I can see if its around. None of that stuff is classified and it was meant to be widely read.

B



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Post #: 28
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/25/2014 7:55:14 PM   
Currahee

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 5/25/2014
Status: offline 		That...would...be...awesome.

I think it was called "Counterstroke," and it was written by Kenneth Macksey, same guy who wrote "First Clash." (and on an unrelated note, the fictional book about operation Sea lion getting the go ahead - "Invasion!" if I recall).
When I say that there was sequel to FC, I wanted to get it, but I discovered it was out of my reach. If you could change that, I would love it. And if you can't, thanks for the offer anyway.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 29
RE: Counter-Factual Fiction Books - NATO vs. Russia/WW3 - 5/25/2014 9:59:53 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		I can't seem to find it online either. I'll check the Army Library tomorrow.

B

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Post #: 30
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