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Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

 
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Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, S... - 3/27/2014 6:56:50 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		Time for another ride.
This time i'll get back playing the beloved Evil Empire against the Allied dogs. My opponent will be Obvert. We've met each other already two times in London and in both occasions we've pondered the idea of playing togheder...now the right time has come cause we both ended our matches and have some free time.
We are still deciding rules etc, but basically we have agreed on the main decisions.... It will be a DBB game, with stacking limits, reduced cargo, PDU OFF and RnD ON.... Pretty tough!

I will need your help guys in order to plan the overall strategy... And, above all, to tailor the economy around a PDU OFF game...it will be my first time ever with PDU OFF...and it's not going to be easy as you know....



< Message edited by GreyJoy -- 1/24/2015 12:13:53 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 6:59:30 AM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline
Subscribed

Good luck.


< Message edited by koniu -- 3/27/2014 8:07:32 AM >

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(in reply to GreyJoy)
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RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 8:37:54 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		Excellent! Look forward to this one.

Cheers,
CC

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(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 3
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 9:26:49 AM   
richlove


Posts: 196
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline 		Excellent! Can't wait to see both sides of this one.

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 4
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 10:03:30 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		Thanks guys!

Ok, the HRs aren't set yet, but I'm already thinking about what could be my future expansion strategy.

Let's bear in mind that this is a DBB game with Stacking Limits, so the refineries don't produce supplies...

The key goal is now, more than ever, to secure the oil sources.


I'm leaning towards the usual approach:

- PH attack with KB minus Kaga
- Kaga sent to the SRA to form a super-mini-KB
- Blitz operations against Palembang and Malaya, while leaving Luzon pretty much bypassed.
- Would like to isolate Java, conquering fast Ambon and Timor and estabilishing just a couple of early AFs near Java in order to keep isolated Sosarbaja and Batavia.
- Solomons? Yes, probably the usual stuff... PM and Lunga... not Noumea I think...but not so sure yet.

What about the 2nd phase? India-Cylon or Northern Oz... hard to say.

In my game against Brad one of my major mistakes was to abandon Darwin and northern Oz too early... Think I'd go for a Northern Oz strategy...but not so sure yet.


(in reply to richlove)
Post #: 5
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 10:05:16 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Looking forward to it!

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Post #: 6
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 11:03:30 AM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		Banzai!

Definitely take and hold Darwin and NW Oz. Key terrain to deny the enemy and favorable ground for fleet engagements if the Allies try something too soon.

_____________________________


(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 7
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 11:20:56 AM   
MrKane


Posts: 790
Joined: 3/9/2013
From: West Poland
Status: offline 		Good luck Nicola.

(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 8
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 11:32:04 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

Good luck Nicola.



Thanks Tom!!

(in reply to MrKane)
Post #: 9
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 11:33:43 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Banzai!

Definitely take and hold Darwin and NW Oz. Key terrain to deny the enemy and favorable ground for fleet engagements if the Allies try something too soon.


Yes, I do agree, even if Darwin may become a trap if the allies make a real effort from Eastern and Western Oz.
But I have a couple of ideas in mind...

The other option would be India... Mr.Kane has told me he managed to grab a lot of supplies and fuel (some millions!) during his adventure in India in our former game... that wouldn't be bad...

(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 10
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 11:42:53 AM   
MrKane


Posts: 790
Joined: 3/9/2013
From: West Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Banzai!

Definitely take and hold Darwin and NW Oz. Key terrain to deny the enemy and favorable ground for fleet engagements if the Allies try something too soon.


Yes, I do agree, even if Darwin may become a trap if the allies make a real effort from Eastern and Western Oz.
But I have a couple of ideas in mind...

The other option would be India... Mr.Kane has told me he managed to grab a lot of supplies and fuel (some millions!) during his adventure in India in our former game... that wouldn't be bad...


Yep, India is land of goodies. However in case Oz adventure, I think you need capture Perth & Horn Island to secure Southern DEI. You will not need Darwin if you have Horn Island.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 11
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 12:04:46 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline 		Subscribed!

Go get him!

< Message edited by pws1225 -- 3/27/2014 1:05:16 PM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 12
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 12:35:47 PM   
cohimbra


Posts: 632
Joined: 10/15/2011
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225

Subscribed!


+1

I've played a (part of) GC with PDU = OFF and I enjoyed it very much, never regret.
Good luck...Banzai!

(in reply to pws1225)
Post #: 13
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 12:38:38 PM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Banzai!

Definitely take and hold Darwin and NW Oz. Key terrain to deny the enemy and favorable ground for fleet engagements if the Allies try something too soon.


Yes, I do agree, even if Darwin may become a trap if the allies make a real effort from Eastern and Western Oz.
But I have a couple of ideas in mind...

The other option would be India... Mr.Kane has told me he managed to grab a lot of supplies and fuel (some millions!) during his adventure in India in our former game... that wouldn't be bad...


Yep, India is land of goodies. However in case Oz adventure, I think you need capture Perth & Horn Island to secure Southern DEI. You will not need Darwin if you have Horn Island.


India also has a lot of resources to take advantage of for a while while SW OZ has a little HI/LI in Perth and 100 Resources generating at Kalgoorlie.

On the OZ side if you take Horn Island, Merauke and Darwin he will have to do a lot of work before threatening to re-take Darwin.




_____________________________


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RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 12:55:15 PM   
veji1

 

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/9/2005
Status: offline 		GreyJoy, could you tell us a bit how you think PDU off is going to impact the game and mainly how you play it ?

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Adieu Ô Dieu odieux... signé Adam

(in reply to Mike McCreery)
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RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 5:06:22 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		This is awesome! Good luck. Hope Erik will do an AAR too.

(in reply to veji1)
Post #: 16
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 5:18:14 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Good luck.

Are the both of you playing for overt VPs and is auto-vic on the table? Or is this a "for the journey" game?

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 17
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 6:52:29 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this

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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 18
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 8:17:39 PM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Good luck! Both of you have fun!

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 19
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 10:14:28 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

GreyJoy, could you tell us a bit how you think PDU off is going to impact the game and mainly how you play it ?



This is a very nice question mate.

Well, let's say at first that i have no evidence. Not yet at least. My thoughts are just hypotesis...

However, based on what i'm seeing deeply looking at the upgrade paths of every single Group, the war outcomes should be very different from what we are all used to with PDU ON.

In 1942 we are all used to see a total and uncontested control of the skies by the japanese. As soon as Mr.Tojo arrive, all the IJA sentais get equipped with it, and the allied fighters are everywhere swept out of the skies.
The few P-38s that are around are just too few and they get swept to oblivion. The P-40 is outclassed and outnumbered in every theatre.
This dominion of the skies enables the empire to estabilish a strong perimeter everywhere. The Hordes of Helens and Netties complete the picture, keeping the allies (both on land and on seas) honest at least untill the Hellcats arrive (mid 1943).

With PDU OFF only 4x42 Sentais can upgrade to mr.Tojo...and only 1 to KI-44a...which means that at best you're gonna have 160 Tojos (a, b and c) only by dec 1942 (if you heavily research the Tojo line so to have both the b and c version). This means the IJAAF will have to fight for 12 months ONLY with KI-43 (most of the groups simply skip the IIb version and so to upgrade most of your Ic versions you need at least to get to the IIIa...which arrives pretty late in 1943).
The situation gets worse when you look at the IJN.
For the Whole 1942 and 1943 you have to fight ONLY with the A6M2, A6M3 and A6M3a. Half of the IJN won't be able to upgrade to the A6M5 untill you get the A6M2Sen Baku...which means early 1944 at best.
Even If you heavily RnD the N1K and J2M lines, only 4 groups will be upgradable to them by dec 1943...not much.

This means that, when the Empire will be hardly pressed for its expansion, it will have to fight only with A6Ms and Oscars...both offensively (sweeping bases against P-40,P38, Spitfires and Hurricanes) and defensively (CAPping against 4Es!).
The bombing army will also be much less strong, with most of the airgroups stuck with unarmoured Sallies till the end of the war and a very little minority upgradable to the armoured Helens. Lilys, Anns, Marys and Sonias will be needed in frontlines if you want to keep on advancing in 1942...

It is clear like a springtime morning that with these assets the Japanese cannot hope to do what they are used to in 1942.
Every advance past the very first months will have to deal with the allied air army. An air army which now is much more stronger than we used to consider...not because their airframes got better, but because they remain the same (p-39s, P-40s, P-38s, Hurricanes, Spit V) while the Japanese planes get worse.

So i really have to re-consider what is a reachable strategic target under these conditions...


(in reply to veji1)
Post #: 20
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 10:14:58 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Good luck.

Are the both of you playing for overt VPs and is auto-vic on the table? Or is this a "for the journey" game?



Didn't talk about it yet...will do asap!

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 21
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 10:18:46 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this



Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 22
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 10:43:01 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this


Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....


Having just been on the receiving end of a Manila strike only I can offer some input. Of 27 submarines at Manila all were sunk. KB then disappeared and did not support further operations in the DEI. CV Kaga and all the CVL/CVE's are enough to support operations in the DEI. Factor in the Betty/Nell threat once based in the DEI and there is little need to add KB. KB is certainly capable of taking out the submarine threat at Manila and still be available for operations in the Central or Southeast Pacific as early as January 42, even sooner if needed. Is it better to take out the submarine threat rather than damage as much of the American surface force at Pearl Harbor? I don't know. Personally I like having the fleet intact and providing I don't squander the surface assets they may have a far reaching impact. Do I miss the submarines? Sure, but we all know how ineffective they are for all of 1942 and the number of reinforcements is substantial. Time will tell.


_____________________________

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(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 23
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 10:51:03 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Good luck.

Are the both of you playing for overt VPs and is auto-vic on the table? Or is this a "for the journey" game?



Didn't talk about it yet...will do asap!


To be clear, I mean no insult or snark. Just an up-front clarification. Obvert had said at the end of the Jocke game that he has come around to the idea of playing for VPs and the pressure that puts on the moves.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 24
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 10:53:44 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		Jan 42? Sure, but for Jan 1942 the KB may have already helped secured most of the early pacific gains and then be able to get back to Japan and ready for a next push.
At the same time the KB hunting in the pacific means the allies must keep their assets hidden...

Not an easy choice obviously... I agree, however, that the allied subs aren't much of a threat in 1942...and they arrive in so big numbers later on that 27 subs won't make any difference...imho

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 25
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/27/2014 11:05:08 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Good luck.

Are the both of you playing for overt VPs and is auto-vic on the table? Or is this a "for the journey" game?



Didn't talk about it yet...will do asap!


To be clear, I mean no insult or snark. Just an up-front clarification. Obvert had said at the end of the Jocke game that he has come around to the idea of playing for VPs and the pressure that puts on the moves.



Yes yes, don't worry BW! I got it!
Don't really know if i like the idea of playing ONLY for VPs... racing for an autovictory may easily destroy my japanese plans for mid and late war...
We'll talk about it!

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 26
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/28/2014 12:54:13 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this


Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....


Having just been on the receiving end of a Manila strike only I can offer some input. Of 27 submarines at Manila all were sunk. KB then disappeared and did not support further operations in the DEI. CV Kaga and all the CVL/CVE's are enough to support operations in the DEI. Factor in the Betty/Nell threat once based in the DEI and there is little need to add KB. KB is certainly capable of taking out the submarine threat at Manila and still be available for operations in the Central or Southeast Pacific as early as January 42, even sooner if needed. Is it better to take out the submarine threat rather than damage as much of the American surface force at Pearl Harbor? I don't know. Personally I like having the fleet intact and providing I don't squander the surface assets they may have a far reaching impact. Do I miss the submarines? Sure, but we all know how ineffective they are for all of 1942 and the number of reinforcements is substantial. Time will tell.



I advocate a Kaga split as well for ahistorical starts. It just makes sense.

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 27
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/28/2014 2:01:45 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Grey Joy -

Count me in, this will be a good one. I expect to see the fur fly... <grin>

Obvert is an experienced player; I will learn much from your AAR.

Mac


_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 28
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/28/2014 2:02:08 AM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this



Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....


Cannonfodder is giving you very good advice here. As to advancing anywhere in the Pacific (Wake, Tarawa, and Rabaul, per your examples), if you commit to these early with your bonus-move TFs (easy to do since you won't need them in the DEI given the starting position of the KB) you can take all three of these locations easily within the first week of play without the Allies being able to hinder you. Granted you only have a limited number of bonus-move TFs on turn one, but you do have more than enough of them if choose your locations wisely...

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 29
RE: Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - Passions and Manure - DB... - 3/28/2014 2:30:02 AM   
EHansen


Posts: 360
Joined: 12/6/2013
Status: offline 		You may not have as many other means to counter the Allied subs as you expect. You will have a number of IJA bomber units restricted to Ki-51 and Ki-51b for the entire war.
They have limited range and limited bomb load. You should expect your airborne ASW to be much weaker than your other games.

< Message edited by EHansen -- 3/28/2014 3:30:35 AM >

(in reply to Quixote)
Post #: 30
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