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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Mods and Scenarios >> Fleet Question

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Fleet Question - 4/3/2014 10:28:46 PM

keeferon01

Posts: 334
Joined: 6/18/2005
From: North Carolina
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Hi All
I am trying to build a scenario set in Med around 1976.
Does anyone have knowledge of what the 6th Fleet and Black sea Fleet
composed off then ?
I have The USS America being there along with CG10 Albany, I think
CGN-36 and CGN-37 was there too but not sure .

Any Help very much appreciated

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Post #: 1

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 1:09:01 AM

Gunner98

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
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I believe she had CVW 6 on board http://www.seaforces.org/usnair/CVW/Carrier-Air-Wing-6.htm, A list of CVW-6 squadrons is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_Air_Wing_Six

Also known at Task Force 60: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_60

Not sure of the composition, you have the cruisers. Add in a couple Charles F. Adams class DDG's, a Brooke-class frigate, maybe a Garcia-class frigate - the Spru's and OHPs weren't active yet

You will need an AOR - I know that USS Savannah (AOR-4) was in and out of the Med in the mid 70's - I don't think she was there in 76 but not sure. Whichever AOR you pick could be escorted by a couple of the early Knox FFs

I'll keep an eye out.

b

(in reply to keeferon01)

Post #: 2

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 2:01:30 AM

keeferon01

Posts: 334
Joined: 6/18/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

Many Thanks Gunner
Just getting into the cold war database and it is fantastic , you
keeping your eye out for info is much appreciated .
Maybe one day we could all get a database going with ships etc and
where they was to help scenario builders

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Post #: 3

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 2:27:01 AM

Gunner98

Posts: 5508
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From: The Great White North!
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I have pretty much done that for 1994, with the assumption that the cold war continued. All the CGNs are still in play, Sea-wolf accelerated etc - also Russian ships that work ;-).

The USN moved its ships around quite a bit through the Cold war, but I have some decent references which will at least pin down which coast the ship was on.

My oldest reference (until I can get to some boxes) is 81 but at that stage:

All 10 Coontz DDG (which I didn't mention above) were based in the Atlantic so one or two could be in the Med
All 4 Sherman's were in the Pac
CF Adams, 10 of 23 were in the Atlantic (DDG 2,3,4,5,10,11,17,18,19,23)
The Spruance was in the Atlantic and the Foster in the Pac, but the Spru's first depl was in 77
The first 9 Forrest Sherman's were in the Atlantic (931-944)
All of the Gearing and Carpenter's were in Reserve

Frigates:

3 of 6 Brooke were in the Atlantic (4,5,6)
The Glover was East Coast but was an experimental test bed
A bunch of Knox's were in the Atlantic - they are too slow for a CVBG but good escort for your AOR
Garcea's 1040,..43,..44,..47,..49 were Atlantic
the McCloy (1038) was also in the Atlantic

All of the post WWII DE's were stricken or in reserve by 76

You should also put a couple or three SSNs in the Med, Sturgeon and/or Permit class.

B

(in reply to keeferon01)

Post #: 4

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 3:01:03 AM

Gunner98

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From: The Great White North!
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As for the Black Sea fleet I'm a little more foggy

- The Kiev made it's debut in 75 so that could be involved
- Both the Moskva and Leningrad were in the Black Sea
- No Slava's, Kirov's, Sovremeny's or Udaloy's

Jane's 91/92 has the following
2x SSG
18x SS (mostly Foxtrot's I believe)
7x CG (Wiki - 4 Kara's including Azov in Dec 75, & Total guess 2x Kresta II and 1x Kresta I)
9x DDG (Kashin, Kashin-Mod, 2x Kanin (wiki), Kilden, Kotlin)
6 FFG ( Krivak I's only, or Riga)

Here is a good site for Naval Aviation http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/russia/navalaviation.html

B

(in reply to Gunner98)

Post #: 5

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 3:02:37 AM

CV60

Posts: 992
Joined: 10/1/2012
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Although not exactly the time frame you are looking at, this article gives a pretty good run-down of the US and Soviet forces during the October 73 war:

http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/zhukov/files/2004_GoldsteinZhukov_NWCR.pdf

The Naval History and Heritage Command may be able to help with the Sixth Fleet OOB during a particular year and month. The Soviet OOB would be a bit of a challenge though. I'm not sure those records are easily available.

quote:

Hi All I am trying to build a scenario set in Med around 1976. Does anyone have knowledge of what the 6th Fleet and Black sea Fleet composed off then ? I have The USS America being there along with CG10 Albany, I think CGN-36 and CGN-37 was there too but not sure . Any Help very much appreciated

< Message edited by CV60 -- 4/4/2014 4:04:07 AM >

(in reply to keeferon01)

Post #: 6

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 6:21:02 AM

Jakob Wedman

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Joined: 3/20/2013
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From my attempt to create a db with individual ships.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 6:41:08 AM

Randomizer

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Joined: 6/28/2008
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I found a downloaded strategic paper (The 6th Fleet and the Defence of Europe - Prof Desmond Wilson) that gives the following composition for the US Sixth Fleet in 1976 for all of the Med:

2 x CV/CVN with ~85-A/C each;
18-19 x surface combatants/escorts (cruisers/destroyers)
4-7 x amphibious warfare ships with at least 1 MEU and associated helos
5-7 x AOR/AOE/AK
1 x LRMP Squadron with P3 Orion
Indeterminate number of SSN
Indeterminate number of SSBN

A typical CVAG is given as:

24 x F-14
24 x A7
13 x A-6
6 x EA-6
4 x E-2C
10 x S-3
8 x SH-3D
1 x C-1

The assessed "routine" strength of the Soviet forces in the Med was typically:

8-10 x torpedo armed SSK
2-3 x SSG or SSGN
2-4 x cruisers (apparently the Sverdlov's were frequent visitors)
9-12 x "destroyers/frigates"
1-3 x amphibious ships
18-20 auxiliaries/minesweepers
5-6 AGI/survey or research ships.

-C

< Message edited by Randomizer -- 4/4/2014 7:43:05 AM >

(in reply to CV60)

Post #: 8

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 10:49:39 AM

Gunner98

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From: The Great White North!
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Your DB is much more of a DB than mine, and I wish that I had included more data when this was started. In support of the battle-set I'm building, Northern Fury, there was a need for a good background storyline and therefore, the DB was started.

So the attached is based on a bunch of sources (wish I had tracked them) with liberal use of SWAG's (situational wild-ass guesses) to fill in the blanks. The text document outlines the base story and some of the assumptions, and the two spreadsheets have grown beyond the original intent.

Remember that the main intent was plausible storyline based on fact, because in reality most nations had cashed in the 'false' peace dividend and much of this kit had gone to the breakers yards.

Also, its a work in progress and will probably never get finished

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Randomizer)

Post #: 9

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 10:58:36 AM

Gunner98

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

I found a downloaded strategic paper (The 6th Fleet and the Defence of Europe - Prof Desmond Wilson) that gives the following composition for the US Sixth Fleet in 1976 for all of the Med:

-C

That is a very nice reference paper. Here is the link http://cna.org/sites/default/files/research/5500016000.pdf

Thanks

B

(in reply to Randomizer)

Post #: 10

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 11:12:34 AM

CV60

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Joined: 10/1/2012
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One minor quibble: I think that the USN typically had 2 P3 squadrons in the AOR-One based out of Rota, and one at Sig during the 70's. However, that was a bit before my time, so I could be wrong.

quote:

1 x LRMP Squadron with P3 Orion Indeterminate number of SSN Indeterminate number of SSBN

One other idea I have used: Go to
http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/
and you occasionally will get a battlegroup photo that you can use to determine the types of ships that the battlegroup had. The CV/CVN cruisebooks will also tell you the squadrons they had embarked.

< Message edited by CV60 -- 4/4/2014 12:20:39 PM >

(in reply to Randomizer)

Post #: 11

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 11:30:45 AM

Jakob Wedman

Posts: 202
Joined: 3/20/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV60

One minor quibble: I think that the USN typically had 2 P3 squadrons in the AOR-One based out of Rota, and one at Sig during the 70's. However, that was a bit before my time, so I could be wrong.

Orion deployments, something I put together for the Fleet games.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Jakob Wedman -- 4/4/2014 12:44:08 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 11:32:02 AM

CV60

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Joined: 10/1/2012
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According to "Strategy and Tactics" #48, (Jan/Feb 1975, pg. 8) the US would typically have 2 SSNs in the AOR in the mid-1970 timeframe.

(in reply to CV60)

Post #: 13

RE: Fleet Question - 4/4/2014 12:16:10 PM

keeferon01