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Some issues - 4/11/2014 1:22:14 PM

Dragunov

Posts: 15
Joined: 4/4/2014
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Hi,

i think i found several problems:

-the hit chance of CIWS against ASM is differing, some CIWS (some Phalanx versions, CADS-N-1) have a hit chance of 20-30% and other CIWS (other Phalanx versions for example) have a hit chance of 70 or more percent. I noticed this when i tested the effectiveness of the Phalanx onboard the Perry class. The hit chance is 28-29% with a burst of 300 rounds which is much to low i guess. A hit chance of 70 and 75% like noted in the database is more appropriate i guess.

-it seems that CIWS only make one engagement even if they miss the target or if they only kill one missile of a four missile salvo. I deleted all weapons of the Kuznetsov except for the eight CADS turrets and let an A-6 with four Harpoons attack from the side. Either the bursts of all four turrets miss or one harpoon is shot down, but even if the distance between the missiles and the carrier is still about 1200 m none of the CIWS engage again. I think especially against slow targets like Harpoons CIWS should do more than one engagement.

-I did a similar test with the Missouri BB63 which is equipped with four Phalanx. It seems as if all four Phalanx have a 360� attack area.

-it seems as if CIWS is not able to attack bombs. I attacked the Kuznetsov with several GBU-10 but no attempt was done to destroy the bombs. I think LGBs are an easy target for CIWS since Phalanx is also used to destroy mortar rounds.

-the Oscar II class sub can be destroyed with a single Mk46 torpedo (45 kg warhead). Please compare this to the Kursk accident where 2-3 tons of explosive was needed to blast a hole into the hull.

-the S-3 aircraft ignores the manual override when flying an ASW mission. I dont know to what altitude MAD works but the aircraft always go to 12 km altitude and i think that is too high for it. I tried several times to set the altitude to 1000 m, 300 m and also did manual inputs like 200, 100 and 50 m.

Unfortunately i cannot upload files at the moment.

< Message edited by Dragunov -- 4/11/2014 2:35:54 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Some issues - 4/11/2014 2:14:49 PM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

Hello,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragunov
-the hit chance of CIWS against ASM is differing, some CIWS (some Phalanx versions, CADS-N-1) have a hit chance of 20-30% and other CIWS (other Phalanx versions for example) have a hit chance of 70 or more percent. I noticed this when i tested the effectiveness of the Phalanx onboard the Perry class. The hit chance is 28-29% with a burst of 300 rounds which is much to low i guess. A hit chance of 70 and 75% like noted in the database is more appropriate i guess.

Hit chance for ballistic & unguided weapons depends on (among other factors) distance from the firing point; the greater the distance, the more severe the degradation. The message log should describe this ("[...] adjusted for distance: XX % [...]").

quote:

-it seems that CIWS only make one engagement even if they miss the target or if they only kill one missile of a four missile salvo. I deleted all weapons of the Kuznetsov except for the eight CADS turrets and let an A-6 with four Harpoons attack from the side. Either the bursts of all four turrets miss or one harpoon is shot down, but even if the distance between the missiles and the carrier is still about 1200 m none of the CIWS engage again. I think especially against slow targets like Harpoons CIWS should do more than one engagement.

Interesting case. In this predicament each of the CIWS mounts should have taken a shot at a different incoming Harpoon instead of ganging-up defensive fire on one. Rag? I think we've been looking at this...? (Mount-to-target reservations)

quote:

-I did a similar test with the Missouri BB63 which is equipped with four Phalanx. It seems as if all four Phalanx have a 360� attack area.

If the engagement begins within the 5nm arc-cutoff point then engagement arcs should be respected. If the engagement begins outside the cutoff threshold and cross into the "arc matters" zone then the arc restrictions are ignored.

A save file would help a lot in this. If possible could you upload it somehwere else and provide a link?

quote:

-it seems as if CIWS is not able to attack bombs. I attacked the Kuznetsov with several GBU-10 but no attempt was done to destroy the bombs. I think LGBs are an easy target for CIWS since Phalanx is also used to destroy mortar rounds.

-the Oscar II class sub can be destroyed with a single Mk46 torpedo (45 kg warhead). Please compare this to the Kursk accident where 2-3 tons of explosive was needed to blast a hole into the hull.

-the S-3 aircraft ignores the manual override when flying an ASW mission. I dont know to what altitude MAD works but the aircraft always go to 12 km altitude and i think that is too high for it. I tried several times to set the altitude to 1000 m, 300 m and also did manual inputs like 200, 100 and 50 m.

Save files would help tremendously. If possible could you upload them somewhere else and provide a link?

Thank you for your feedback.

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(in reply to Dragunov)

Post #: 2

RE: Some issues - 4/11/2014 3:57:08 PM

Dragunov

Posts: 15
Joined: 4/4/2014
Status: offline

05.04.1989 10:05:13: Gun (20mm/85 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 0 Burst [200 rnds]) is attacking AS-4 Kitchen A Mod 3 [Kh-22N ASM] #391 with a base PH of 70%. Final PH: 70%. Die Roll: 10 - HIT

05.04.1989 10:05:13: Gun (20mm/85 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 0 Burst [200 rnds]) is attacking AS-4 Kitchen A Mod 3 [Kh-22N ASM] #391 with a base PH of 70%. Final PH: 70%. Die Roll: 78 - MISS

05.04.1989 10:05:13: Gun (20mm/85 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 0 Burst [200 rnds]) is attacking AS-4 Kitchen A Mod 3 [Kh-22N ASM] #391 with a base-Ph of 23,3%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 26,2%. Final Ph: 26%. Die Roll: 39 - MISS

05.04.1989 10:05:12: Gun (20mm/85 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 0 Burst [200 rnds]) is attacking AS-4 Kitchen A Mod 3 [Kh-22N ASM] #391 with a base-Ph of 23,3%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 26,1%. Final Ph: 26%. Die Roll: 79 - MISS

This was against the Missouri. Seems like two different kinds of Phalanx are mounted on it.

I will upload the files as soon as possible.

< Message edited by Dragunov -- 4/11/2014 6:17:17 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Some issues - 4/11/2014 6:05:05 PM

Dragunov

Posts: 15
Joined: 4/4/2014
Status: offline

The S-3A Vikings are on an ASW mission. Speed is set to loiter and altitude to 305 m. The planes ignore the set altitude after some time. When the Throttle & Altitude setting window is open, the altitude will be changed to the set value until the window is closed again.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4

RE: Some issues - 4/11/2014 6:17:27 PM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragunov

05.04.1989 10:05:13: Gun (20mm/85 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 0 Burst [200 rnds]) is attacking AS-4 Kitchen A Mod 3 [Kh-22N ASM] #391 with a base PH of 70%. Final PH: 70%. Die Roll: 10 - HIT

05.04.1989 10:05:13: Gun (20mm/85 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 0 Burst [200 rnds]) is attacking AS-4 Kitchen A Mod 3 [Kh-22N ASM] #391 with a base PH of 70%. Final PH: 70%. Die Roll: 78 - MISS

05.04.1989 10:05:13: Gun (20mm/85 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 0 Burst [200 rnds]) is attacking AS-4 Kitchen A Mod 3 [Kh-22N ASM] #391 with a base-Ph of 23,3%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 26,2%. Final Ph: 26%. Die Roll: 39 - MISS

05.04.1989 10:05:12: Gun (20mm/85 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 0 Burst [200 rnds]) is attacking AS-4 Kitchen A Mod 3 [Kh-22N ASM] #391 with a base-Ph of 23,3%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 26,1%. Final Ph: 26%. Die Roll: 79 - MISS

This was against the Missouri. Seems like two different kinds of Phalanx are mounted on it.

I will upload the files as soon as possible.

Did you enable detailed gun fire control?

Asking because such a discrepancy in base PH makes sense only if one mount has a director tracking the target and the other one does not, having to resort to manual control.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 4/11/2014 7:19:07 PM >

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RE: Some issues - 4/13/2014 8:59:39 PM

Dragunov

Posts: 15
Joined: 4/4/2014
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Hi,

yes i enabled detailed gun fire control. Now i disabled it and the hit chances are correct. Thank you.

quote:

Interesting case. In this predicament each of the CIWS mounts should have taken a shot at a different incoming Harpoon instead of ganging-up defensive fire on one. Rag? I think we've been looking at this...? (Mount-to-target reservations)

Please check this scenario. All weapons and sensors of the Kuznetsov are disabled except for the 8 CADS turrets. The attacks come in several waves with 4 Harpoons per attack. Sometimes all 4 turrets from one side attack the same Harpoon. But from time to time also 2 or 3 different missiles are engaged. So i think that works correct.

But the bigger problem is that the CIWS only engage once even if the first engagement ended when the Harpoons are still about 1200 m away. Would it be possible that CIWS do more than one engagement if there is enough time?

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 6

RE: Some issues - 4/15/2014 6:06:30 AM

NefariousKoel

Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragunov

The S-3A Vikings are on an ASW mission. Speed is set to loiter and altitude to 305 m. The planes ignore the set altitude after some time. When the Throttle & Altitude setting window is open, the altitude will be changed to the set value until the window is closed again.

I'm also curious as to whether a MAD detection maximum altitude is modelled in the game.

If not, it should probably be added at some point. But not before the appropriate behavior is added to ASW patrols and manually ordered altitudes can be held (the issue Dragunov mentioned, which I've also experienced in the past).

< Message edited by NefariousKoel -- 4/15/2014 7:07:06 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Some issues - 4/15/2014 7:58:45 AM

Dragunov

Posts: 15
Joined: 4/4/2014
Status: offline

In this scenario the Kuznetsov will be engaged by several A-6 equipped with GBU-10.

The bombs fly towards the carrier and they impact when their horizontal range to the target reaches zero. Their altitude at that moment is still over 6000 m.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Dragunov -- 4/15/2014 12:49:55 PM >

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Post #: 8

RE: Some issues - 4/15/2014 8:01:22 AM

Dragunov

Posts: 15
Joined: 4/4/2014
Status: offline

Here is a picture of the attack.

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Post #: 9

RE: Some issues - 4/15/2014 2:48:02 PM

Firov

Posts: 24
Joined: 3/3/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
Did you enable detailed gun fire control?

Asking because such a discrepancy in base PH makes sense only if one mount has a director tracking the target and the other one does not, having to resort to manual control.

Shouldn't Phalanx CIWS, by it's very nature as a fully self contained self defense weapon with integrated search and track radars, always have a radar director available to it?

I'm curious what the line of thought here is, or if this is a bug that is going to be fixed. Each Phalanx CIWS really should have it's own individual radar director.

< Message edited by Firov -- 4/15/2014 8:12:25 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Some issues - 4/20/2014 7:33:15 AM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragunov

The S-3A Vikings are on an ASW mission. Speed is set to loiter and altitude to 305 m. The planes ignore the set altitude after some time. When the Throttle & Altitude setting window is open, the altitude will be changed to the set value until the window is closed again.

I'm also curious as to whether a MAD detection maximum altitude is modelled in the game.

If not, it should probably be added at some point. But not before the appropriate behavior is added to ASW patrols and manually ordered altitudes can be held (the issue Dragunov mentioned, which I've also experienced in the past).

All sensor checks use slant, not horizontal, range so yes.

Also, please, new issues on separate threads. Thank you.

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RE: Some issues - 4/20/2014 7:35:10 AM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dragunov

Hi,

yes i enabled detailed gun fire control. Now i disabled it and the hit chances are correct. Thank you.

quote:

Interesting case. In this predicament each of the CIWS mounts should have taken a shot at a different incoming Harpoon instead of ganging-up defensive fire on one. Rag? I think we've been looking at this...? (Mount-to-target reservations)

Please check this scenario. All weapons and sensors of the Kuznetsov are disabled except for the 8 CADS turrets. The attacks come in several waves with 4 Harpoons per attack. Sometimes all 4 turrets from one side attack the same Harpoon. But from time to time also 2 or 3 different missiles are engaged. So i think that works correct.

But the bigger problem is that the CIWS only engage once even if the first engagement ended when the Harpoons are still about 1200 m away. Would it be possible that CIWS do more than one engagement if there is enough time?