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freighters problem - 4/14/2014 10:09:03 PM

eater of stars

Posts: 13
Joined: 2/6/2014
Status: offline

Hello people.
my question is a little simple but at the same time i think i might need to think a good strategy to actually solve it.
i star a new game as a normal empire in a normal galaxy with the most largest galaxy with the most sectors 15x15 (i think is the most large) in hard with normal pirates and creatures very expensive research against 34 races (distant worlds extended) in a galaxy with abundant colonies and rare independent colonies with all the story and events avaible for shadows except prewarp story (like i say im in normal empires no pre warp)
the problem is that i start to colonise lots of worlds very fast 34 colonies to be more precise and when i say very fast i mean very fast because there are lots of aliens and i didnt want them to get close to me or my colonies (strategy that works quite fine) now my private sector is starting to build lots and lots and lots of large freighters at the beggining i have 23 now im building 120 at the same time(i say lots of them) now my problem is im very short of resources even in my capital colony and after the ancient guardians colony mine is the most develop so im not that bad in fact im the empire that mine the most and trade the most too.
my question is.
What do i do to solve the problem with the freighters and resources?
what would you do in my place?
could you recommend me a good strategy?
Thank you very much.

Post #: 1

RE: freighters problem - 4/15/2014 3:41:19 PM

HTG

Posts: 20
Joined: 2/23/2014
From: Region of Karlsruhe, Germany
Status: offline

That is an existing problem and I don't know what WE can do about it. Unfortunately the algorithms for the private freighters and in general resource distribution are "suboptimal" to say it in a polite way or to be blunt, they badly need to be improved dramatically. Dear developers, I am sorry for the last statement, but to me it feels like that.

In my game, I am playing as well in a 15x15 sector galaxy with 1400 Stars, I was able to reduce the number of Opponents to just 6 and I have about 50% of the colonies in my Empire. The private sector of my Empire has around 3000 freighters of all sizes and it still cannot distribute the resource in the right way. It even happens that a building queue on one of my planets stops for more than a year before a freighter delivers the required resources.

Unfortunately, game design doesn't allow you to build your own freighters or to give commands to the freighters of the private sector. Even if you could, it wouldn't be very practical, because in the long run there are so many freighter shipping resources around. Ok, at least you could build a small freighter fleet for urgent deliveries.
As far as I know, you cannot improve the AI for resource distribution by a mod, else I would have started such a project some time ago.

It seems to me, that all we can do for the moment is to wait if the developers will improve the AI or if it can be modified by a mod in the future.

(in reply to eater of stars)

Post #: 2

RE: freighters problem - 4/15/2014 4:11:18 PM

Aeson

Posts: 784
Joined: 8/30/2013
Status: offline

While it will probably not help at this point (or at least won't help much), you could manually design your freighters so that they require less resources for construction. Strip out unnecessary components like blasters, or reduce the number of fuel cells and cargo bays, or remove some main and maneuvering thrusters. Note that if you do this at the point you're at now, you'll make your problem worse, as the ships currently being built will not be built to the new design, and any existing freighters will try to retrofit to the new design. On the other hand, you could take an extreme step and try scrapping the shipyard to force the private sector to order freighters of the new design at a different shipyard.

Other things you can do in the future include building fewer stations with shipyards (especially do not build deep-space facilities with construction yards, and scrap any such structures you find), or focusing on building up mines in close proximity to your shipyards. If you have enough spare resources somewhere that has unoccupied construction yards, you can design and build a warship with cargo bays and mining engines, and create a player-controlled mining ship; while not something that I would personally recommend as a long-term strategy, it will allow you to gather specific resources and deliver them to stations of your choice.

(in reply to HTG)

Post #: 3

RE: freighters problem - 4/15/2014 4:13:46 PM

pycco

Posts: 345
Joined: 5/28/2013
From: United States of America
Status: offline

@ HTG LOL troll.

@ eater of stars, it takes time to build them having multiple mines of the same resource is a good idea. depending on distant it takes about a month in game for your first delivery of what you are mining. when expanding quickly there will be a back log, if you do not have stock piles. also you only need 1 space port per 4 sectors imo. space ports tell the ai to stockpile resource, that can lead to resources scattered all over. your empire will catch up, it will just take some time. you can make the ship designs more effective by building them your self. consider trade sanctions against the ancient guardians, they take a lot of resources as they are tech lvl 7 they alone can cause a HUGE back log of resources.

(in reply to HTG)

Post #: 4

RE: freighters problem - 4/15/2014 4:52:16 PM

CyclopsSlayer

Posts: 583
Joined: 2/11/2012
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Keep Shipyard locations to a minimum. The Freighters will try to balance the resources between them all.

The easiest method is to design a Star Base with Commerce/Medical/Recreation centers, and any Defenses you desire. Sure it cannot build a ship, but it will still provide the cash, growth and happiness bonuses at your colonies.
Build a limited number of Space Ports, and then only where needed to support construction and repair on or near an active War front.

My starting base, Medium on sublight starts, I double the number of Yards and Docking bays, up the labs to 10 of each as that will handle the majority of the empire capacity for sometime.

(in reply to pycco)

Post #: 5

RE: freighters problem - 4/15/2014 5:00:14 PM

Antarian

Posts: 137
Joined: 1/3/2014
From: Victoria, Canada
Status: offline

I am having similar problems with passenger ships, they seem to get really confused if I start changing the colony orders on colonies. I am a very Nasty Kzinti, I play them racist as hell and if a colony revolts, they order all native inhabitants exterminated and no new races accepted. This plays havok on my passenger ships though, they seem to cluster together at one world looking very confused.

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Post #: 6

RE: freighters problem - 4/15/2014 10:40:25 PM

eater of stars

Posts: 13
Joined: 2/6/2014
Status: offline

hi people
thanks for your answers
BBBBBBBUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTUT
i have to say that i solve my problem without read them because yesterday when i check to see opinions and strategies.
nobody actually post anything and if i remember correctly it was quite late (i think 9:00PM).
So i came back to my session and i start thinking how to solve my problem and the solution that i came up with actually work quite fine (not to be presumptuous) and i actually came back to post how i solve my problem to help people that actually are in the same situation as i was.
and this is what i did last night.
1---I start http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/micons/m8.gifMASSIVELY TAXINGhttp://www.matrixgames.com/forums/micons/m8.gif on my main colony (i dont tax other colonies so the population can grow more faster and i actually build a star base above them to help them develop more faster) i TAX THEM so high that the private sector wont have any chance of producing more freighters(i pass from 0 to 75).
2---I stop every action that my builders could be doing and any kind of construction that they could be building and i send everyone back to the capital colony to actually dont lose them in some kind of attack or accident or whatever the problem or danger you could imagine.
3---I check which resources i needed in order to control a construcion ship and send him to create a station in that particular resource as close as i could to my capital and it turns out to be !!!!!!STEEL!!!!!!

...
GOD%#$&&%#

and here is why i was so in a polite way or to be blunt (JUST LIKE HTG SAYS) MMAADDDD because i have more than 87 sources and i was low in steel

(

ARE YOU !"#(&(%#$"#"## SERIOUS

).
4---I let the freighters that i have left to make their stupid show (because it is stupid in epic proportions) to recollect and get as many steel as they can back to the capital of my empire it take 15 minutes but finally my space port in my principal colony was at the beggining building 110 ships and now it was at 45 (of course i feel like

IM THE BOSS).
and things now seem to come back to the way they should of course in a very slow way but just like master MATRIX RECRUIT HTG says(THAT I THINK HE SHOULD BE A DEVELOPER IN ORDER TO PUT A SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM) the algorithms for the private freighters and in general resource distribution are "suboptimal" to say it in a polite way .
and that was my strategy i will try to do some of the tips that some of you recommend me (quite late but still thanks for the help of course

).
So that was my strategy i hope it helps somebody to deal in a more efficent way with the private sector and to get things back to the way they should and to keep enjoing this wonderful game (even with his problems

)
so thanks everyone hope it helps

(in reply to eater of stars)

Post #: 7

RE: freighters problem - 4/16/2014 1:13:37 AM

Darkspire

Posts: 1986
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: My Own Private Hell
Status: offline

Understanding the speed needed to expand without backlogs and learning when to seed mines and what mines to seed are something that takes quite a while to even getting close to master. All players have the same problem when they first start out, resources and speed of expansion, I was the same, I was always short of chromium and would argue that it was not my fault but the program, I know now that it was me, just took time to learn what I was doing wrong. DW is like no other 4x out there, you really have to nurture your empire in the founding stages for it to grow, it is not just seeing what is going wrong it is understanding why and how to put it right.

For example, seeding the resources from your system to start, caslon, steel, gold etc, all the main resources you can, then wait till you have those resources coming back to your homeworld before trying to colonize every system you can, colony ships take a huge amount of resources, at game start it is never advisable to try to build them before having a good stock of the resources needed, ensure that your mines are as near optimal as possible by getting the mining upgrades from the energy tech tab in research. This also applies to building state ships, escorts, frigates etc, have a look at the resources needed for building each type from the design screen, make sure you have a good seeding of the mines needed before you go building the ultimate space armada.

All boils down to patience and understanding, once you have these things under control you will find DW is one of the most enjoyable 4x out there, if not the best, I have been playing for many, many moons and it still surprises me and gives me hours of enjoyment.

Darkspire

< Message edited by Darkspire -- 4/16/2014 2:15:10 AM >

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Post #: 8

RE: freighters problem - 4/16/2014 11:47:38 AM

Jeeves

Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline

Darkspire is quite correct, so far as it goes that expanding too fast is the root cause of resource shortages. I've watched freighter traffic in the universe expansion during beta testing and I'll say that the improved freighter distribution is enough reason to buy the expansion even if you don't play mods. From over fifty micromanaged games experience, I can say the the critical shortages clear up by game year four, PROVIDED you build state owned military mining ships, discussed elsewhere. In my current game at year 4 I have 64 escort steel miners for just strategic resources, 64 frigate state miners for strategic plus luxury, and 64 destroyer gas miners for gas plus luxury. When the universe expansion comes out, I'll post a ship design file on my site for people to download. There's nothing special about my designs, but from experience you can do the same yourself if you use 3 of each type of mine engine onboard, at least as many cargo bays as mine engines, and propulsion engines to give speed up to 45 cruise where possible. Gas miners get 10 cargo bays early in the game and 20 massive cargo bays later on for efficiency purposes. Of course you can't meet those design specs without researching construction up to size 650 for destroyers...

Lonnie Courtney Clay

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Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to Darkspire)

Post #: 9

RE: freighters problem - 4/16/2014 4:26:23 PM

CyclopsSlayer

Posts: 583
Joined: 2/11/2012
Status: offline

I solve the early high cost of colonies by side-stepping it.
In a typical game my first several "colonies" are conquered Independents. By the time all the nearby ones are well in hand my explorers will have found and my Constructions ships utilized all the adjacent premium resource sites.

(in reply to Jeeves)

Post #: 10

RE: freighters problem - 4/17/2014 9:26:36 AM

HTG

Posts: 20
Joined: 2/23/2014
From: Region of Karlsruhe, Germany
Status: offline

@pycco: Not a good answer! I must confess, that the freighter issues really annoys me and maybe I was a bit too negative about it. BUT it is an issue. I did spend some time watching the freighter doing their automatically assigned jobs and it wasn't really efficient what I saw. AND I am definitely not talking about problems caused by too fast expansion, I am talking about problems which could be observed at any time of the games I have been playing. For example:
1. Many times, freighters where ordered to do jobs 5 or more sectors from their current position, while other freighters would have been available, which were much closer. Result, it took a long time and used much resources to do the job and certainly, the freighter itself was occupied for a long time with a single job
2. While having resource shortages at one construction site, mining ships are parked and doing nothing - they really could help with the resource shortages (resource would have been available in the same system)
3. Unnecessary resource shipments: Resources are shipped from one system to another system, while there are mining stations in the target system, where this particular resource is available in huge quantities.
4. Many times, freighter fly with no cargo from system to system. Try to think strategic: Transport resources which are not locally available in the target system or resources the target system is low on. Try to avoid flying around with empty cargo holds - one of the main rules in transport logistics. (My brother-in-law works for a logistic company)
I will add more as I discover it.

Yes, freighter management has improved since "Return of the Shakturi", but not enough.

What could be done to solve the problem:
1. First I would introduce a new freighter class, "Cargo Drones" for example, which only operates in a system:
- Cargo Drones can be build by space ports
- they are equipped with a tiny hyperdrive - only for inter-planetary usage and not meant for flying to another system, have a good cargo hold, are controlled by the space-port computer and have no crew
- they fly around inside the system and collect resource from the mining stations inside the system and deliver them to the space ports of the system. They also should transport resources from space port to space port inside the same system
- Every space-port should be able to build and manage some Cargo Drones

Other ideas concerning Cargo Drones:
- for colonies, which do not have a space port, a small resource station (could be a special station or subtype of the small space port) could manage the cargo drones and be the point where the colony can be delivered with resources and can trade resources as well without having a full fledged space port (much less maintenance costs)
- new component for space ports "Cargo Computer" for controlling the Cargo Drones, which could be upgraded with a more efficient one later in the research tree.
- for advanced empires: possibility to build an advanced mining ship (Carrier like), which is a host for Cargo Drones and has a huge cargo hold: Fly to a system with the resources you need and which has mining stations and release your Cargo Drones, wait for some time and fly home with a cargo hold full of resource ...

(in reply to pycco)

Post #: 11

RE: freighters problem - 4/17/2014 10:06:11 AM

Jeeves

Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline

My biggest gripe is when I've expanded to most of the map, freighters flying empty from east to pickup resources needed there and found in the west, while freighters in the west fly empty to the east for resources needed in the west. That is just plain stupid.

Lonnie Courtney Clay

_____________________________

Live long and prosper!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to HTG)

Post #: 12

RE: freighters problem - 4/17/2014 3:26:26 PM

CyclopsSlayer

Posts: 583
Joined: 2/11/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeeves

My biggest gripe is when I've expanded to most of the map, freighters flying empty from east to pickup resources needed there and found in the west, while freighters in the west fly empty to the east for resources needed in the west. That is just plain stupid.

Lonnie Courtney Clay

Demand and Distribution queuing is by NO means one of DW's strengths.

(in reply to Jeeves)

Post #: 13

RE: freighters problem - 4/17/2014 5:35:01 PM

pycco

Posts: 345
Joined: 5/28/2013
From: United States of America
Status: offline

HTG 1-3 are caused by you. either building to fast expanding to fast or to many star ports,to many mines. 4 i see your point but if it was done that way it would be much harder on CPU and cause the whole game to lag, just the amount of calculation that would have to be made. 3k freighters "deciding" where to go every 30 seconds would cripple most pcs. instead of pick up from nearest port with resources , drop it off go back to port. you would end up with freighters all over the map from trade agreements, they would use a lot more fuel from the stations which in turn would slow that resources delivery. "cargo drone" idea has merit, but the idea is based on "problem" caused by your playing. you can put mining components on any ships and use them as miners. one of the hardest parts about this game is

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

Understanding the speed needed to expand without backlogs and learning when to seed mines and what mines to seed are something that takes quite a while to even getting close to master. All players have the same problem when they first start out, resources and speed of expansion, I was the same, I was always short of chromium and would argue that it was not my fault but the program, I know now that it was me, just took time to learn what I was doing wrong. DW is like no other 4x out there, you really have to nurture your empire in the founding stages for it to grow, it is not just seeing what is going wrong it is understanding why and how to put it right.

For example, seeding the resources from your system to start, caslon, steel, gold etc, all the main resources you can, then wait till you have those resources coming back to your homeworld before trying to colonize every system you can, colony ships take a huge amount of resources, at game start it is never advisable to try to build them before having a good stock of the resources needed, ensure that your mines are as near optimal as possible by getting the mining upgrades from the energy tech tab in research. This also applies to building state ships, escorts, frigates etc, have a look at the resources needed for building each type from the design screen, make sure you have a good seeding of the mines needed before you go building the ultimate space armada.

All boils down to patience and understanding, once you have these things under control you will find DW is one of the most enjoyable 4x out there, if not the best, I have been playing for many, many moons and it still surprises me and gives me hours of enjoyment.

Darkspire

(in reply to CyclopsSlayer)

Post #: 14

RE: freighters problem - 4/18/2014 12:32:35 PM

HTG

Posts: 20
Joined: 2/23/2014
From: Region of Karlsruhe, Germany
Status: offline

@pycco: Thanks for confirming that the algorithm used for controlling the freighters is inefficient.
The causes you mention "either building to fast expanding to fast or to many star ports,to many mines" and your statement "3k freighters "deciding" where to go every 30 seconds" confirms my suspicion. (Before you ask, yes, I do know what I am talking about, because I have more than 20 years of experience in software design and development - most of the projects dealing with a big amount of data)
One last comment: If you would have "Cargo Drones" you would need less freighters and the Drones would by far not need as much CPU-power than freighters because basically they are restricted to the system they are deployed in.

Well, it is not a dramatic issue and it is great game anyway. I will adjust my strategies.

(in reply to pycco)

Post #: 15

RE: freighters problem - 4/18/2014 4:27:22 PM

Spidey

Posts: 411
Joined: 12/8/2013
Status: offline

You might want to keep in mind, HTG, that the game handles more than just your 3000 freighters. The other 14 factions will probably also have some freighters going to and from. And while I could be mistaken, I'm pretty sure you don't solve 15 vehicle routing problems that each have 3000 vehicles to optimality in real time. And being an economist, I'd like to think that I've got a fraction of an idea of what I'm talking about.

If you feel like you could write an algorithm that can do this kind of optimization then do share your thoughts about it, but that old "I've got 20 years of experience in 1337 programming so this is easy" is a bit thin on its own. Just keep the performance issue in mind. It has to run with minimal lag on a P4 1.5 GHz with Windows Vista in the background while also doing graphics and sound. 41 different resources, 3000 different vehicles with different attributes, and several hundred locations. I've seen simpler challenges used for master thesis topics but if you can make an algorithm that crunches one of these, let alone 15, in just a few seconds then I'm officially madly impressed.

By the way, I can't help but notice that you're suggesting drones built by space ports that transport stuff from mines to space ports and between different space ports inside a system. This implies to me that you like having a lot of space ports, which is probably why you're having major supply issues. The game seems to treat ports like central hubs, and if you build too many the each hub will have small stockpiles as well as too few mines supplying it.

Going with as little as one space port per sector seems to work out quite well for me. It provides big stockpiles while also giving you a good chance of not needing much resource transfer between the different ports. Having one per system or multiple per system, on the other hand, makes stockpiling a lot harder, since your number of shuttles is tied to your number of colonies rather than your number of ports. Obviously, 20 shuttles can distribute 41 resources between 2 hubs better than they can between 10.

That being said, I do agree that the drone concept could be used to simply things. Essentially they'd sort out the mine to port transport, leaving civilian freighters to transport things between systems. But then the question arises of why drones can fly inside a system with warp drives but not outside, as well as what the effect of the civilian economy would be, if all the freighting is likely going to end up being automated?

What you seem to be wanting is to cut most of the complexity out of the mine->stockping link, but isn't this bit of complexity part of the basic design concept in the game? That resources don't just appear where you need them through magic but have to be slowly transported by people who see a profit in doing the job, and that imperialist dictators who want to conquer the known universe still have to patiently wait for Trucker Joe to deliver that batch of alloy before the new capital ship can get built?

(in reply to HTG)

Post #: 16

RE: freighters problem - 5/13/2014 2:14:37 PM

buglepong

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/12/2014
Status: offline

Sorry new to the game here. Starting to run into funny AI problems like tacing civvies too hard and freigt inefficiencies.

whats this i read about state mining ships? I tried making one but it seems to make it useful i have to direct it manually every single time i want a resource

(in reply to Spidey)

Post #: 17

RE: freighters problem - 5/13/2014 5:10:12 PM

Spidey

Posts: 411
Joined: 12/8/2013
Status: offline

There's no automated state mining. If you want to do it, you'll have to do it manually, which is why most of us don't really care to do it at all. Some expert strategies call for it but for the most part, you'll get by just fine with civilian mining.

Anyway, what sort of freight inefficiencies are you running into? The "oh crap, the private sector ordered 132 ships at this space port and it is all out of steel" kind or just the usual "bugger, all my trace material is stuck in the wrong side of my empire" kind?

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Post #: 18

RE: freighters problem - 5/13/2014 10:41:42 PM

buglepong

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/12/2014
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Mostly trace material shortages

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Post #: 19

RE: freighters problem - 5/14/2014 2:17:52 AM

Darkspire

Posts: 1986
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: My Own Private Hell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: buglepong

Mostly trace material shortages

What Distant worlds expansion are you playing? Legends? Shadows?

Darkspire

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Post #: 20

RE: freighters problem - 5/14/2014 10:39:06 AM

buglepong

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/12/2014
Status: offline

shadows

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Post #: 21

RE: freighters problem - 5/14/2014 11:41:19 AM

Darkspire

Posts: 1986
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: My Own Private Hell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: buglepong

shadows

Have a read of my post at #8, DW is a 4x like no other, you really have to be very careful with building and expansion when you first start. Try playing a classic game, not PreWarp or Pirate, reduce the corruption to low, change the homeworld to excellent, turn off the story and events.
Do not feel that your a noob for making things easier, get a few game starts under your belt, play for maybe 10-15 game years and then start another game, learn what does and causes what and when you start another game you will gradually find that the problems you used to have will gradually be sidestepped.
One of the main problems for resources is the Adviser, turn all the functions for him off except for colony buildings, leave that as suggest new facilities. The AI on that part has not got a clue on what it is doing and is always causing problems for new players.
There is a myriad of other things I could suggest but those would be the main ones, that and make a cuppa and watch some of the excellent LetsPlay vids on YouTube.

I can promise one thing though, once you have made the first few steps and get to understand the game more you will find it is one of the best strategy games out there, I have been playing constantly for many moons and it still surprises me or I find a new way of doing things.

Keep at it.

Darkspire

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Post #: 22