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RESOLVED : Flak does not defend against airfield attack

 
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RESOLVED : Flak does not defend against airfield attack - 4/17/2014 5:10:07 PM   
ogar

 

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Cfant uncovered an issue in his AAR on Orel 1943. He noticed that the flak units on his airfields were not participating in defense of air strikes.

EDIT:
I have found evidence in toawlog that flak units participate in defence under airfield attack. For me, this issue is resolved. (Yeah, yeah, I know -never should have even opened the question...)

Following Oberst Klink's suggestion, I re-ran my tests using toawlog, and dug through the details. The flak units do participate in anti-air defence under airfield attack. Under bombardment, flak units help defend, and are subject to damage from the air bombardment.
So, it looks to me as though the bat-rep summary is simply not reporting the flak units as defenders in airfield attack. From the details in my post below, they certainly are listed in toawlog as participating.
***end EDIT***

I ran some tests, using the 3XB mod and Orel 1943 scenario (same as Cfant). Airfield attacks - when you send an air unit against an airfield and you toggle the "airfield attack" option in the attack menu - escape defensive fire from flak units in hex (and from other units in hex, as well). If you send air units to bombard an airfield (do not toggle the 'airfield attack' option), then any flak units in hex as well as other units participate in the defense and are subject to losses.

I repeated the tests using vanilla TOAW 3.4.0.202 -- same results. I repeated the tests using vanilla 3.4.0.202 on the Cherbourg scenario and on the France 1944 scenario -- same results.

This results seems unusual to me. Have other players noticed this ? Was it like this on 3.2 ?
I ran a search on 'airfield attack' on forum posts, and only found a thread from Feb 2014 where posters pointed out that Elmer sending massive airfield attacks on turn 1 was a fact of like (or TOAW). There was no mention of vanishing flak.
Is this issue known as a bug ? If so, is it on the list for 3.6 ?

Thanks.

< Message edited by ogar -- 4/18/2014 1:11:11 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Flak does not defend against airfield attack - 4/17/2014 5:55:41 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

Cfant uncovered an issue in his AAR on Orel 1943. He noticed that the flak units on his airfields were not participating in defense of air strikes.

I ran some tests, using the 3XB mod and Orel 1943 scenario (same as Cfant). Airfield attacks - when you send an air unit against an airfield and you toggle the "airfield attack" option in the attack menu - escape defensive fire from flak units in hex (and from other units in hex, as well). If you send air units to bombard an airfield (do not toggle the 'airfield attack' option), then any flak units in hex as well as other units participate in the defense and are subject to losses.

I repeated the tests using vanilla TOAW 3.4.0.202 -- same results. I repeated the tests using vanilla 3.4.0.202 on the Cherbourg scenario and on the France 1944 scenario -- same results.

This results seems unusual to me. Have other players noticed this ? Was it like this on 3.2 ?
I ran a search on 'airfield attack' on forum posts, and only found a thread from Feb 2014 where posters pointed out that Elmer sending massive airfield attacks on turn 1 was a fact of like (or TOAW). There was no mention of vanishing flak.
Is this issue known as a bug ? If so, is it on the list for 3.6 ?

Thanks.

I just did a test again, pure airfield attacks and look:

Combat :STAVKA 1 Air Army, 311 ShAD equipment added to combat inventory.
News :STAVKA 1 Air Army, 233 ShAD bombards the target.
AIRCombat: OKH 2 Panzer Army, 2 Pz Army HQ contributes anti-aircraft fire (1).
AIRCombat: OKH Orel FlaK, 34a FlaK Rgt contributes anti-aircraft fire (65).
AIRCombat:Attempt Penetration: STAVKA 1 Air Army, 233 ShAD.
AIRCombat: Committed to furball: STAVKA 1 Air Army, 233 ShAD.

It does participate, Ed. It simply doesn't show the individual units defending, but a combined AAA fire value of the units. in this case OKH weapons.

Klink, Oberst

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 4/17/2014 7:01:42 PM >


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(in reply to ogar)
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RE: Flak does not defend against airfield attack - 4/17/2014 6:13:24 PM   
Cfant

 

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In my case, the comat report NEVER showed: "Flak contributed to". Is there a way to see, if it took part in the fight despite not shown in combat report?

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
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RE: Flak does not defend against airfield attack - 4/17/2014 7:40:13 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cfant2

In my case, the comat report NEVER showed: "Flak contributed to". Is there a way to see, if it took part in the fight despite not shown in combat report?

Open Opart.ini, flag toawlog=Y and all the details will be logged in a file called toaw_log.txt

Klink, Oberst

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(in reply to Cfant)
Post #: 4
RE: Flak does not defend against airfield attack - 4/17/2014 10:26:52 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cfant2

In my case, the comat report NEVER showed: "Flak contributed to". Is there a way to see, if it took part in the fight despite not shown in combat report?

Open Opart.ini, flag toawlog=Y and all the details will be logged in a file called toaw_log.txt

Klink, Oberst


That is some serious black ninja TOAW s&#t right there Oberst! Glad the patch works.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 5
RE: Flak does not defend against airfield attack - 4/18/2014 12:03:51 AM   
ogar

 

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Joined: 9/6/2009
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Following up on Klink's suggestion, I went back and re-ran the tests, setting toawlog & uberdude. 
Short version : flak units participate in anti-air defence under either airfield attack or under bombardment from planes (airfield attack  is not toggled).  Tests were run under mod 3xB, and under vanilla 3.4.0.202.

From what I saw, it looks like "if you want to only damage aircraft, use airfield attack".  "if you want to damage aircraft AND flak AND (maybe) anything else in hex, use bombardment".  Attacking air losses are close to the same; defending air losses somewhat higher under airfield attack.

More details :
Flak units on the airfield hex added their Anti air strength to overall anti-air (defending aircraft values) under both 3xB and 3.4 as part of the 'furball' phase. (Each attacking or attack-support unit must pass 'through' the furball, pass anti-air attacks by defenders, before it is used in calculating any other attack-defending values in the strike.  Even high proficiency units can fail a check after entering the furball phase; failing that check, a unit does not participate any further in the air strike.)

Flak units also specifically defended against the attacking aircraft as in
" 240 Bomber targeted by OKH anti-aircraft fire (1980/253)" followed by the list of specific 'shots on target' as in
"OKH weapons firing on STAVKA Pe-2.
" Pe-2 destroyed."
This specific defence by flak operates under both 3xB and under vanilla 3.4.

Under 3xB, any non-air, non-flak unit on the airfield hex, also contributes its anti-air value to the furball, and the collective defence strength.  I did not see a specific reference to the HQ (with anti-air = 1) having a specified defending section, as the flak unit did.

With a bombardment from the air attack, the same general steps were followed - flak participated in the furball, in the collective anti-air defence and specifically.  Under 3xB, the HQ unit in hex, added to the furball, and collective defence strength.

Overall, attacker air losses were about the same under airfield attack or bombardment; defending air losses were somewhat higher under airfield attack.  Losses under 3xB were somewhat higher for aircraft - defending or attacking - than under 3.4, for both airfield attack and for bombardment.

Under bombardment, the non-air units are specifically attacked by attacking aircraft surviving the furball and the initial anti-air defence. So, bombardment is one way to actually attack the flak guns or anything else on hex.


(in reply to governato)
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