Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The USN also started using Torpex by late 43 which increased the explosive blast of the torpedoes by about 50%.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Kongo was sunk by Mk 18 torpedoes. THEY'RE NOT EVEN IN THIS BROKEN PoS GAME!

Back pain getting to you T?

I was being sarcastic. The Mk 14 remained the primary sub-launched torpedo until the end of the war; it's proper that it's the device being used in the game.

60% of sub launched torpedoes in 1945 were Mk 18s.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1
60% of sub launched torpedoes in 1945 were Mk 18s.

Well I'm def'nitely not a modder, but since subs are now modelled w/ pairs of tubes, it would be simple (albeit tedious) to change one pair of tubes to the Mk 18 in mid-war, and another pair in a late-war upgrade. Appropriate changes could be made by introducing new torp devices as needed, to reflect the increased power of the torpex warhead.

I've always thought it wasn't quite right that when the Mk 14 torpedo is upgraded, that that at-sea subs immediately take advantage w/o having to RTB to exchange their old-model ammo for the newer more effective fish.

So, from a modeling point-of-view on the scale of WITP-AE it doesn't bother me. When did the subs at sea get their last re-load of new torpedoes? What's to say that they weren't given new and improved torpedoes as part of their last re-load?

If this transition was modeled more "accurately", you'd see a transition period of what? Maybe 10 days to 2 weeks? In game, all the subs would head to the barn on the designated day all over the Pacific to grab the new torpedoes that have magically restocked all ports and AS ships in theater and magically become available to detonate on a given day? That's more accurate?

I think you'd feel better about it if you consider that magic day the end of the process of distribution and re-loading rather then the first day they are available at a naval depot on the West coast.

Regards,
Feltan

It's harder than this and a case of players needing to just chill out and take the abstractions of the game in stride.

The rule in Section 6.4.2.1 says that in January 1943 ALL torpedoes with a dud rate greater than 49 have their rate reduced by 20. (Not TO 20; one could only wish!)

The editor sez that the MK 13 aerial torpedo used by carrier TBs has a dud rate of 50. Ponder that.

How would your average AFB feel about having to pull every carrier into a major fleet base, say Pearl or larger, in January 1943 to swap out fish? Kind of disturbs a lot of plans.

Submarine warfare in the game is MASSIVLEY ahistorical. I've said that for years. No R&R periods, dense-pack boats repaired of major structural damage in a matter of days, no ability to choose how many fish to spend on low-mix targets, no ability to do multiple attacks on the same TF with one boat in one phase. (This is a huge difference from history.) Many other factors including crew rotations and training granularity, not modeled. In comparison the dud rate is minor.

I'm not aware of any Allied player who has ever come close to historical numbers with his subs. Few Japan players would play if that were the case. (Eight
aircraft carriers sunk by subs? Insane!)

And yet, and yet . . . It all works very well. It's balanced against the middle range of performance. Subs are useful, they're dangerous, sometimes they pack a huge punch, they can never be ignored. But they aren't the war-deciders they were in RL against the Japanese economy. IF they were the whole underpinning of the game would have to be re-cast. Victory conditions to begin and go from there.

So them getting "healed" in January while at sea is a flyspeck issue. If a player had to drive home and then back out it would just be another level of micro-management that adds nothing to strategy and tactics. In RL there was no such "Great Healing." By January 1943 Mk14 performance was all over the board, driven by individual COs who risked their careers and commands to get into their fish once they left on patrol and "fix" them locally. Also some squadrons did "helpful preventative maintenance" on the front lines in direct violation of BuOrd. It happened. If a boat's fish were at 80% dud rates in December 1942 it was because the CO was either an idiot or a coward or both. But the game needs a cut off date for the code and January works OK.

But don't for a minute think it reflects history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Some of the torpedo fixes would have required manufacturing changes, but I believe the early 43 fix was to the firing pins and it was mostly done in the field. The torpedoes in storage at Pearl harbor were modified using new firing pins made out of a propeller from a downed Japanese plane shot down on Dec 7, 41. I believe a service bulletin went out to all depots in the field about what needed to be done. Conceivably all AS and other torpedo depots around the world quickly came up with their own firing pins and made modifications. Subs at sea probably didn't upgrade until they got back to port, but all stores probably had the upgrade done relatively quickly.

Upgrading carrier torpedo stores would not have been a big issue at that point because the Enterprise was in drydock and the only operational carrier, the Saratoga, was essentially being held in reserve. It was mostly a time of rest and refit for the carrier squadrons.

The magnetic detectors were finally fixed by late war and those changes probably had to be manufactured in the states and sent out to the field which would have taken longer.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: sandlance

In 1943 the Mk16 Torpedo went into production and began to replace the Mk14, this was a very slow process. The warhead problems were fixed and the fuel was changed from methenol to Hyrogen Peroxide. No more Torpedo Juice.

FTG1ss

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

And people drank that! Methanol is really a bad idea to drink.

I thought torpedo juice was ethanol, but a bit of googling shows you're right.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: sandlance

In 1943 the Mk16 Torpedo went into production and began to replace the Mk14, this was a very slow process. The warhead problems were fixed and the fuel was changed from methenol to Hyrogen Peroxide. No more Torpedo Juice.

FTG1ss

My sources say this is not true. The Mk 16 was generally considered an expensive failure, and only 1700 were produced. It did not reach the fleet until 1945 and did not deploy in any kind of widespread way. It stayed in inactive inventory until the mid-1970s, but was not a mainline weapon.

The Mk14 was a mainline weapon until almost 1980, and was widely sold to foreign navies. My dad's Guppy boat carried them in the 1960s (in a mix), and my SSBN deployed with some in the 1960s as well. (Maybe 1970s; I don't know when the shift to the Mk 37 happened. We carried a mix of Mk 37 and Mk 48s on my first patrol in 1982.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

I am curious, if lets say Admirals Edition was in Europe, the Germans had some torpedoes that were homing, would the "hit" rate for these torpedoes be much higher? How would a homing torpedo be added?

/just bored

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

HMS Conqueror used a British made torpedo , not American. I believe it was a MK 8. Sprior could tell us for sure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

HMS Conqueror used a British made torpedo , not American. I believe it was a MK 8. Sprior could tell us for sure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Tigerfish is a modern torpedo. MK8 was a WW2 torpedo, a straight runner. I recall at the time that it was appropriate to use ww2 fish on a ww2 ship. Tigerfish was NOT used.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Tigerfish is a modern torpedo. MK8 was a WW2 torpedo, a straight runner. I recall at the time that it was appropriate to use ww2 fish on a ww2 ship. Tigerfish was NOT used.

I was going from memory. Looking it up sez HMS Conquerer had Mk 8 and Tigerfish on board, but Tigerfish was extremely unreliable. The same Wiki sez five were tested when the boats returned from the Falklands War; two failed completely and the other three did not hit a hulk target. An interim program improved Tigerfish after the Falklands before Spearfish was ready.

I used to correspond with a British engineer working on the Spearfish project; he spoke quite a bit about Tigerfish. I must have had that on my mind. I knew Belgrano was sunk with non-homing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Tigerfish is a modern torpedo. MK8 was a WW2 torpedo, a straight runner. I recall at the time that it was appropriate to use ww2 fish on a ww2 ship. Tigerfish was NOT used.

I was going from memory. Looking it up sez HMS Conquerer had Mk 8 and Tigerfish on board, but Tigerfish was extremely unreliable. The same Wiki sez five were tested when the boats returned from the Falklands War; two failed completely and the other three did not hit a hulk target. An interim program improved Tigerfish after the Falklands before Spearfish was ready.

I used to correspond with a British engineer working on the Spearfish project; he spoke quite a bit about Tigerfish. I must have had that on my mind. I knew Belgrano was sunk with non-homing.

I read that HMS Conqueror log that was linked here a few months ago, and I did remember that they used the old non-homing torpedoes. That log was very enlightening reading. BTW, IIRC they were periodically directed by headquarters on what torps to load!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Tigerfish is a modern torpedo. MK8 was a WW2 torpedo, a straight runner. I recall at the time that it was appropriate to use ww2 fish on a ww2 ship. Tigerfish was NOT used.

I was going from memory. Looking it up sez HMS Conquerer had Mk 8 and Tigerfish on board, but Tigerfish was extremely unreliable. The same Wiki sez five were tested when the boats returned from the Falklands War; two failed completely and the other three did not hit a hulk target. An interim program improved Tigerfish after the Falklands before Spearfish was ready.

I used to correspond with a British engineer working on the Spearfish project; he spoke quite a bit about Tigerfish. I must have had that on my mind. I knew Belgrano was sunk with non-homing.

I read that HMS Conqueror log that was linked here a few months ago, and I did remember that they used the old non-homing torpedoes. That log was very enlightening reading. BTW, IIRC they were periodically directed by headquarters on what torps to load!

Torpedoes are "political" in many navies, and I think especially in the RN. The development timeline of Tigerfish was decades, very expensive, and the initial load issued to the fleet was known to not work.

In the case of Belgrano the ASW threat was nil and an SSN has the speed to get into any firing geometry needed for a straight-runner with optimal track angle. At 1000 yards it's hard to miss a ship that long.

I think there is in general a lot of unneeded HQ meddling in warfare since satcoms became the norm. The USA is certainly guilty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I only recall seeing it used once. The CO was directed to be in the radio room--alone--at a certain time--in the previous admin broadcast. We had to be at PD to get the right antenna up and he was in there with the door locked. When he was done he came out (I was OOD), ordered me to get the Nav out of the rack and to have him meet him in his stateroom with northbound charts. In the interim I was to go deep, go fast, and go north.

At dawn we found out Granada was being invaded. And us in the way.

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I only recall seeing it used once. The CO was directed to be in the radio room--alone--at a certain time--in the previous admin broadcast. We had to be at PD to get the right antenna up and he was in there with the door locked. When he was done he came out (I was OOD), ordered me to get the Nav out of the rack and to have him meet him in his stateroom with northbound charts. In the interim I was to go deep, go fast, and go north.

At dawn we found out Granada was being invaded. And us in the way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I only recall seeing it used once. The CO was directed to be in the radio room--alone--at a certain time--in the previous admin broadcast. We had to be at PD to get the right antenna up and he was in there with the door locked. When he was done he came out (I was OOD), ordered me to get the Nav out of the rack and to have him meet him in his stateroom with northbound charts. In the interim I was to go deep, go fast, and go north.

At dawn we found out Granada was being invaded. And us in the way.

I think you mean Grenada. Soviet TV got the name wrong too and initially reported that the US had invaded Spain. Much to the amusement of all NATO countries.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

Original:

"I was going from memory."

Moose - all those years underwater in a steel tube does....things to your memory.

Not to worry, you are still our favorite Underwater Moose. <grin>

ASW Surface Skimmer (USS Bowen FF1079 and USS Capodanno FF 1093)

Mac

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I only recall seeing it used once. The CO was directed to be in the radio room--alone--at a certain time--in the previous admin broadcast. We had to be at PD to get the right antenna up and he was in there with the door locked. When he was done he came out (I was OOD), ordered me to get the Nav out of the rack and to have him meet him in his stateroom with northbound charts. In the interim I was to go deep, go fast, and go north.

At dawn we found out Granada was being invaded. And us in the way.

Hahahaa .... small world, sort of.

You were outbound and I was inbound on a C-130.

Regards,
Feltan

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I only recall seeing it used once. The CO was directed to be in the radio room--alone--at a certain time--in the previous admin broadcast. We had to be at PD to get the right antenna up and he was in there with the door locked. When he was done he came out (I was OOD), ordered me to get the Nav out of the rack and to have him meet him in his stateroom with northbound charts. In the interim I was to go deep, go fast, and go north.

At dawn we found out Granada was being invaded. And us in the way.

I think you mean Grenada. Soviet TV got the name wrong too and initially reported that the US had invaded Spain. Much to the amusement of all NATO countries.

Bill