How successful have you been in sending BP's

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How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 3:37:44 PM

WarHunter

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
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I'm curious as to the success or non-success of sending Build Points.

What route taken?
What nation sent to? Free France, CW, China, France, USSR, Italy.
How many send?
What bugs are currently associated with sending BP's.

Your current games being played with 1.1.7.2 or earlier.

_____________________________

�We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.�
Marcus Luttrell

Post #: 1

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 3:43:18 PM

Jimm

Posts: 607
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: York, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

I'm curious as to the success or non-success of sending Build Points.

What route taken?
What nation sent to? Free France, CW, China, France, USSR, Italy.
How many send?
What bugs are currently associated with sending BP's.

Your current games being played with 1.1.7.2 or earlier.

Have not noticed any problems early game with CW to France (pre-Vichy/conquered).

Are you having any specific problems?

(in reply to WarHunter)

Post #: 2

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 3:59:06 PM

Klydon

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Joined: 11/28/2010
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I have yet to get a build point to Free France. (Don't even know if it is allowed). Not much luck getting build points to China from the CW either.

Build points to CW from the US, no issue. (Sent as many as 5 this way I think)

Germany has had no issues sending build points to Italy either. (Sent up to 8 at one time I think).

(in reply to Jimm)

Post #: 3

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 4:00:40 PM

WarHunter

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline

Successes and failures.

I have a theory, but it points to a possible bug, rules interpretation or both.

Will go into details as more information is complied.

_____________________________

�We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.�
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Jimm)

Post #: 4

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 4:08:20 PM

Jimm

Posts: 607
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: York, UK
Status: offline

Is it an issue over CPs?

(in reply to WarHunter)

Post #: 5

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 5:30:49 PM

Jimm

Posts: 607
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: York, UK
Status: offline

I seem to recall coming across that issue back in pre-release.

I have checked the Master Task List and note that there are a number of reported issues on the "to do list" around overseas trade not working quite as it should.

I gather that game-critical issues remain the priority but no doubt this item will get due attention in due course. As this is not a game stopper hopefully it can be worked around by players in the meantime without too much impact on the enjoyment of the game.

< Message edited by Jimm -- 4/25/2014 6:46:37 PM >

Post #: 6

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 6:00:11 PM

WarHunter

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Joined: 3/21/2004
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Successfully sent 3 BP to the USSR from the USA via a convoy line across the Pacific.

Unsuccessfully tried to send 6 BP from CW and the USA. 3 BP each. 3 convoy line England to Arctic Sea, 3 convoy line across Pacific. CW hijacked the convoy across the Pacific and sent 2 Canadian leaving the USA to send 1 on same convoy. No BP's were sent via arctic sea route to archangel as the weather was snow. Even though Murmansk is still in Russian hands no BP's were sent.

8 BP's being sent to the USSR from the USA. Only 1 is is successful. Fine weather, sent to Archangel.

In all cases if the BP's are not sent they are not subtracted from major power sending them.

My theory is that the program wants to send BP's to a factory. Even through no where in the rules does it specifically say they must go to a factory when transported. There is a sentence that says 5 BP's can be transported into a minor port. Murmansk is a minor port and a city. No factory is there.

My flimsy theory is based on the fact i can't send any BP's to Free France. Because there are no Factories to send to. when sending to the USSR via Vladivostok, all 3 BP's sent from the USA were a success. But if sent via the Arctic sea where there is exactly 1 factory, which moved there to Archangel, only 1 BP is allowed out of 8.

Playing the board game we only required the BP's to reach Murmansk for a limited number based on port size or Archangel again based on port size and weather conditions.

At no time have i been able to give orders for a specific route to be taken. I don't think there is one for us to use. I have not saved any BP's for transport. Its not required to the board game. Is it a requirement for MWiF currently?

Is there something written that i have failed to find that will set me on the straight and narrow path for continuous successful BP transportation?

_____________________________

�We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.�
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Jimm)

Post #: 7

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 6:38:18 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Successfully sent 3 BP to the USSR from the USA via a convoy line across the Pacific.

Unsuccessfully tried to send 6 BP from CW and the USA. 3 BP each. 3 convoy line England to Arctic Sea, 3 convoy line across Pacific. CW hijacked the convoy across the Pacific and sent 2 Canadian leaving the USA to send 1 on same convoy. No BP's were sent via arctic sea route to archangel as the weather was snow. Even though Murmansk is still in Russian hands no BP's were sent.

8 BP's being sent to the USSR from the USA. Only 1 is is successful. Fine weather, sent to Archangel.

In all cases if the BP's are not sent they are not subtracted from major power sending them.

My theory is that the program wants to send BP's to a factory. Even through no where in the rules does it specifically say they must go to a factory when transported. There is a sentence that says 5 BP's can be transported into a minor port. Murmansk is a minor port and a city. No factory is there.

My flimsy theory is based on the fact i can't send any BP's to Free France. Because there are no Factories to send to. when sending to the USSR via Vladivostok, all 3 BP's sent from the USA were a success. But if sent via the Arctic sea where there is exactly 1 factory, which moved there to Archangel, only 1 BP is allowed out of 8.

Playing the board game we only required the BP's to reach Murmansk for a limited number based on port size or Archangel again based on port size and weather conditions.

At no time have i been able to give orders for a specific route to be taken. I don't think there is one for us to use. I have not saved any BP's for transport. Its not required to the board game. Is it a requirement for MWiF currently?

Is there something written that i have failed to find that will set me on the straight and narrow path for continuous successful BP transportation?

As your investigation shows, in some situations sending BPs works and in other cases it fails. I want to triage all the recent posts in Tech Support first but then I am going to work on fixing all the Production Planning bugs (this one included). Our goal is to have version 1.1.9.0 solve all known production planning problems.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to WarHunter)

Post #: 8

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 7:44:13 PM

markb50k

Posts: 1224
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From: Spring, TX
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so far I have not seen any evidence that BPs will successful go someplace OTHER than a factory hex. It needn't be the capital, as I first suspected but it definitely needs to be a factory.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 9

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/25/2014 7:46:15 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
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Pretty sure Warhunter is right on the problem with getting BPs to FF (no factory in receipt hex). I seem to recall that one being already identified.

I was not able to specify an origin, destination or convoy route for BPs when I tried out Warhunter's save game with the CW and US both lending to Russia. The program seems to be making all the decisions there, and I don't really agree with them.

quote:

Playing the board game we only required the BP's to reach Murmansk for a limited number based on port size or Archangel again based on port size and weather conditions.

There is a rules intricacy here concerning pocketed areas on a rail net connecting to the port, but that can wait for the beta forum when all the production stuff gets worked on (coming soon).

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 4/25/2014 8:47:43 PM >

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 10

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/26/2014 2:02:20 AM

brian brian

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Joined: 11/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

My theory is that the program wants to send BP's to a factory. Even through no where in the rules does it specifically say they must go to a factory when transported. There is a sentence that says 5 BP's can be transported into a minor port. Murmansk is a minor port and a city. No factory is there.

this is incorrect; there are stipulations in the rules on where they can go and in what amounts:

"During the production step, you transport the promised build points to any city or major port in the recipient�s home country (Britain�s in the case of the Commonwealth). You do this in exactly the same way as you transport resources (see 13.6.1), except that you can also transport an additional 2 build points to the capital and 1 to each other city and major port cumulative, each turn (e.g. you could transport 6 build points to London each turn; 2 for being the capital, 3 for the factories and 1 for the major port in the hex). Promised build points that can�t be transported are lost."

so Murmansk can receive exactly one BP. Archangel can get two. If you rail factories there, that increases the BPs that can be delivered there. Of course, BPs could be railed onward from those ports if they have a valid rail connection to another Russian city, which would depend on game conditions.

(in reply to WarHunter)

Post #: 11

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/26/2014 2:03:06 AM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
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It's not what the rules say, it's what the program is doing.

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(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 12

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/26/2014 2:09:32 AM

brian brian

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oh and the 5 BP's figure mentioned is a limit on the total of how many resources can transit through a minor port, but that does not mean 5 BPs can be added to the recipient's total by simply delivering them to a minor port, they must move on to a city, factory, or major port.

we've always played that the numerical limit of 5 is placed on any combination of resources and/or build points, however the rules never specifically say that. it could be that 5 resources and 5 BPs could go through the same port, in the absence of a prohibition on that, but that doesn't feel right. either way, the RAC would have to solve that question of course.

Free France in most games should be able to receive 2 BPs at Dakar for being a city and a Major Port, regardless of whether there is a factory there. I don't believe Free France ever has a main capital designated where it could receive the bonus capital BP, but perhaps that should be part of RAC as well. Does Free France have a "Home Country" in a technical sense?

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 13

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/26/2014 3:00:32 AM

WarHunter

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
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I found what you are saying about the limitations to BP's in the RAC. Based on city, capital, factories and major port in the Arctic. Murmansk could receive 1 BP for the City and Archangel 1 BP for the city, 1 for the Major port and 1 for the moved factory. Which the game has reduced to just 1 for the factory in Archangel.

In my current game the allies should be able to send the USSR 4 BP's instead of the lame 1 currently. Considering this is going to be fixed in the future is good news. Knowing the exact number allowed to send is also good news for those who may not have read that particular passage in the tome. Not so good for the current Soviet situation.

Also if you look below, you will see that TRANSPORTING RESOURCES BY SEA
plainly states, "A side can only ship 5 resources a turn into, and/or out of, each minor port." And in TRANSPORT about sending BP's overseas, "You do this in exactly the same way as you transport resources".

I understand the break point on how many Bp's can be sent. But, The current AI has to understand as well as we do, that sending 5 BP's into some minor ports can result in none being valid. And should avoid them.

My overall theory was flimsy as stated before. Getting help with the rules and where to look is a benefit to asking in the first place.

Thank you all.

quote]TRANSPORT
During the production step, you transport the promised build points to any city or major port in the recipient�s home country (current home country in the case of the Commonwealth). You do this in exactly the same way as you transport resources (see 13.6.1), except that you can also transport an additional 2 build points to the capital and 1 to each other city and major port cumulative, each turn (e.g. you could transport 6 build points to London each turn; 2 for being the capital, 3 for the factories and 1 for the major port in the hex). Promised build points that can�t be transported are lost.[/quote]

quote]TRANSPORTING RESOURCES BY SEA
If you can�t rail a resource to a usable factory, you may be able to rail it to a port and then ship it overseas through a chain of sea areas, each containing convoy points. If that chain of sea areas extends to a port, you may then be able to rail the resource from that port to a usable factory.
You can rail a resource point both before and after shipping it overseas but you cannot ship it overseas, then rail it, then ship it overseas again.

Example: You could rail a resource from the east coast of the U.S.A. to the west coast and ship it to the USSR via Vladivostok. You could then rail it to Moscow to become a production point. Since it has already moved overseas, you couldn�t then rail it to Murmansk and on by sea to Britain.
Some resources are in coastal hexes that are not ports. You can pick these resources up directly from the coast as if they were at a minor port.

A side can only ship 5 resources a turn into, and/or out of, each minor port.
You can only ship as many resources through a sea area as the number of convoy points you have in that area.[/quote]

_____________________________

�We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.�
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 14

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/26/2014 3:29:57 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

oh and the 5 BP's figure mentioned is a limit on the total of how many resources can transit through a minor port, but that does not mean 5 BPs can be added to the recipient's total by simply delivering them to a minor port, they must move on to a city, factory, or major port.

we've always played that the numerical limit of 5 is placed on any combination of resources and/or build points, however the rules never specifically say that. it could be that 5 resources and 5 BPs could go through the same port, in the absence of a prohibition on that, but that doesn't feel right. either way, the RAC would have to solve that question of course.

Free France in most games should be able to receive 2 BPs at Dakar for being a city and a Major Port, regardless of whether there is a factory there. I don't believe Free France ever has a main capital designated where it could receive the bonus capital BP, but perhaps that should be part of RAC as well. Does Free France have a "Home Country" in a technical sense?

Any incompletely conquered country is assigned a new home country. The capital of a major power's new home country then serves as the capital of the major power.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 15

RE: How successful have you been in sending BP's - 4/26/2014 4:41:50 AM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

we've always played that the numerical limit of 5 is placed on any combination of resources and/or build points, however the rules never specifically say that. it could be that 5 resources and 5 BPs could go through the same port, in the absence of a prohibition on that, but that doesn't feel right. either way, the RAC would have to solve that question of course.

Then you must have read this passage in the rules (Under Lend Lease, just before Foreign Aircraft) and be remembering it sub-consciously:

quote:

Convoy points that you use to transport resources can�t be used again to transport build points. So, for example, if you have 5 convoy points in a sea area and you transport 3 resources through it, you could only transport up to 2 build points through that sea area. Similarly, resources you ship into or out of a minor port will limit how many build points you can ship into and out of that port (see 13.6.1).

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 16