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Dunnigan's research on tanks

 
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Dunnigan's research on tanks - 4/27/2014 5:58:45 PM   
JustinL

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 2/3/2005
Status: offline 		http://books.google.com/books?id=3QGuPkncLiQC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=t-80+tank++james+dunnigan&source=bl&ots=JDNgcUzkHF&sig=llTps2_RzZQsd6x9oq-tuzw3SG4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6kJdU_7ALZOgsASo2oG4Bg&ved=0CHEQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&q=t-80%20tank%20%20james%20dunnigan&f=false

One question is how accurate his research is.

< Message edited by GamerGuy -- 4/27/2014 7:01:11 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Dunnigan's research on tanks - 4/27/2014 8:48:11 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		His tank numbers look on par with most printed data on tanks. His books are usually regarded well on the subject.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to JustinL)
Post #: 2
RE: Dunnigan's research on tanks - 4/27/2014 9:42:34 PM   
JustinL

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 2/3/2005
Status: offline 		From his data, it seems that the M1A2 is very tough to destroy by the T-80, at 1000 meters (i.e. penetration of 500 at that range vs armor rating of 800 of the M1A2). For the M1 it is a completely different story.

< Message edited by GamerGuy -- 4/27/2014 10:43:11 PM >

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
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RE: Dunnigan's research on tanks - 4/27/2014 11:07:20 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
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From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GamerGuy

From his data, it seems that the M1A2 is very tough to destroy by the T-80, at 1000 meters (i.e. penetration of 500 at that range vs armor rating of 800 of the M1A2). For the M1 it is a completely different story.



There are a couple of things about that statement:

1) Since the two tanks have never been in combat with them all we have are range tests and whatever comparisons can be extrapolated from any actual combat. Since there are no tanks in the class of the T-80 that have fought the Abrams that makes it all pure speculation. To put that into perspective the when the Germans invaded Russia in 1941 there were 967 T-34 and 508 KV-1 tanks in the Red Army. The Germans attacked with a total of 3494 tanks. Of that total only 707 were PzIII's armed with a medium velocity 50mm gun.

On paper the Red Army should have handled the German Panzers easily. But there were a couple of small items. The tanks were so new the crews were barely trained and the guns were so new that almost no armor piercing ammunition was available. They often went into battle with HE rounds only.

2) T-80 vs M1A2 front to front? With which ammo? Does the equation talk about Kontact 5 which was found to be extremely difficult for NATO tank ammunition to penetrate? There is more than just straight up kinetic energy versus steel computations involved in a battle between these two tanks.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/28/2014 12:09:33 AM >

_____________________________

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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to JustinL)
Post #: 4
RE: Dunnigan's research on tanks - 4/27/2014 11:17:38 PM   
JustinL

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 2/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamerGuy

From his data, it seems that the M1A2 is very tough to destroy by the T-80, at 1000 meters (i.e. penetration of 500 at that range vs armor rating of 800 of the M1A2). For the M1 it is a completely different story.



There are a couple of things about that statement:

1) Since the two tanks have never been in combat with them all we have are range tests and whatever comparisons can be extrapolated from any actual combat. Since there are no tanks in the class of the T-80 that have fought the Abrams that makes it all pure speculation. To put that into perspective the when the Germans invaded Russia in 1941 there were 967 T-34 and 508 KV-1 tanks in the Red Army. The Germans attacked with a total of 3494 tanks. Of that total only 707 were PzIII's armed with a medium velocity 50mm gun.

On paper the Red Army should have handled the German Panzers easily. But there were a couple of small items. The tanks were so new the crews were barely trained and the guns were so new that almost no armor piercing ammunition was available. They often went into battle with HE rounds only.

2) T-80 vs M1A2 front to front? With which ammo? Does the equation talk about Kontact 5 which was found to be extremely difficult for NATO tank ammunition to penetrate? There is more than just straight up kinetic energy versus steel computations involved in a battle between these two tanks.

Good Hunting.

MR

I took a look at the Kontact 5 wiki article. That doesn't seem to be factored into Dunnigan's table, though perhaps that is a function of the number of T-80s or T-72s that were fitted with that armor. Any ideas on the percentage fitted with Kontact 5?

If the percentage was high, then it seems aircraft such as the A-10 would be called in more often for these (provided air cover was available).


< Message edited by GamerGuy -- 4/28/2014 12:18:43 AM >

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 5
RE: Dunnigan's research on tanks - 4/27/2014 11:22:25 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		The number of T-80's fitted with Kontact 5 in 1989? That's anybody's guess unless we get some RELIABLE information from the Soviet side that shows. CIA estimates are pure fantasy.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to JustinL)
Post #: 6
RE: Dunnigan's research on tanks - 4/28/2014 12:14:52 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		There are a couple of points to build on MR's comments.
1. M1A2 is a 90's tank system with integrated DU armour.
2. A T80- with Kontact-5 or better ERA has a good chance to take 30-50% of the long rod's pen when it works.
3. In the 90s the Soviets start showing up with better DU rounds too.

It's a cat and mouse game with a lot of innovative solutions to both kill and protect tanks. That was one of the reasons for setting the game in the 80s. The swing of tech during that decade was game changing in many areas.

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/28/2014 4:53:36 AM >

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 7
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