Missing orders in C&C

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Missing orders in C&C - 3/16/2001 5:57:00 AM

Kokoda

Posts: 137
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Melbourne,Australia
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O Great Ones, I posted this on a live C&C thread thinking it was the way to get questions answered, but it seems from trawling through the Forum history the posting a new one is the way. I hope I don't offend the etiquette - but I see from the history that you've answered much dumber ones from people who haven't even bothered to read the manual! I've been playing with C&C on, and enjoy it very much. I find that it doesn't greatly limit my tactics because I usually plan several moves ahead and have a reasonable idea of what I want to do. But I'd like to get a better grip on what to expect in the way of orders each turn. Sometimes it's very useful to know how soon I can change the orders of troops that are stumbling into a nasty looking engagement zone. 1) The manual says that the number of orders is found by the formula (CR + [RND 0 to 9] -40 + Nationality Command Rating)/10. I presume the leader's command rating is the rating listed for the specific type of unit being commanded, but I'm not sure how to find the "Nationality Command Rating". Is it the "base leader skill" listed in the purchase screen? If so, how can you find this out in a custom scenario, since this screen is not available in this case? Is there a handy reference somewhere to these ratings by nationality/year? 2) If my assumptions are vaguely correct I calculate that, with only moderate ratings ( say 40 in each case) and assuming that RND=0, the number of orders is (40+0+40)/10 = 8! I've never seen anything like this in the games I've played. To save time in answering I should say I understand the effects of adverse morale, and the 'carry over' of orders from turn to turn. The only explanations I can think of are that a) the orders are generated at the end of the turn, so few of the allocated orders are available at the start of the next turn (few are carried over). This is not what the manual says... or b) I've got the command ratings totally wrong. c) My algebra is faulty If I can get this right I might have the confidence to offer myself up for sacrifice on PBEM. That should boost your ladder scores! I enjoy playing humans much more than the AI, which I've pretty much 'clocked' ( as my 17 yo son says) - DVs most of the time in generated campaigns. V different results in WBW scenarios, of course. Thanks guys

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CHRIS

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- 3/16/2001 7:40:00 AM

Antonius

Posts: 209
Joined: 6/6/2000
From: Saint Arnoult en Yvelines FRANCE
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Kokoda: O Great Ones, I posted this on a live C&C thread thinking it was the way to get questions answered, but it seems from trawling through the Forum history the posting a new one is the way. I hope I don't offend the etiquette - but I see from the history that you've answered much dumber ones from people who haven't even bothered to read the manual! I've been playing with C&C on, and enjoy it very much. I find that it doesn't greatly limit my tactics because I usually plan several moves ahead and have a reasonable idea of what I want to do. But I'd like to get a better grip on what to expect in the way of orders each turn. Sometimes it's very useful to know how soon I can change the orders of troops that are stumbling into a nasty looking engagement zone. 1) The manual says that the number of orders is found by the formula (CR + [RND 0 to 9] -40 + Nationality Command Rating)/10. I presume the leader's command rating is the rating listed for the specific type of unit being commanded, but I'm not sure how to find the "Nationality Command Rating". Is it the "base leader skill" listed in the purchase screen? If so, how can you find this out in a custom scenario, since this screen is not available in this case? Is there a handy reference somewhere to these ratings by nationality/year? 2) If my assumptions are vaguely correct I calculate that, with only moderate ratings ( say 40 in each case) and assuming that RND=0, the number of orders is (40+0+40)/10 = 8! I've never seen anything like this in the games I've played. To save time in answering I should say I understand the effects of adverse morale, and the 'carry over' of orders from turn to turn. The only explanations I can think of are that a) the orders are generated at the end of the turn, so few of the allocated orders are available at the start of the next turn (few are carried over). This is not what the manual says... or b) I've got the command ratings totally wrong. c) My algebra is faulty If I can get this right I might have the confidence to offer myself up for sacrifice on PBEM. That should boost your ladder scores! I enjoy playing humans much more than the AI, which I've pretty much 'clocked' ( as my 17 yo son says) - DVs most of the time in generated campaigns. V different results in WBW scenarios, of course. Thanks guys

The formula is said to be (CR+ random number - 40 + NCR)/10 so in your example we get (40+0-40)/10=0, which explains why the early Russians have so little flexibility... My version of the manual says orders are received at the start of each turn. So there's less waste than you think but also means leaders routed during the opponent's turns will get no new ones and may at best spend those carried over from previous turns. And please contact me for a PBEM game with C&C on :D once we get 5.0

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- 3/16/2001 8:28:00 AM

MindSpy

Posts: 272
Joined: 5/13/2000
From: Canada
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[ Thanks guys[/QUOTE] The formula is said to be (CR+ random number - 40 + NCR)/10 so in your example we get (40+0-40)/10=0, which explains why the early Russians have so little flexibility... My version of the manual says orders are received at the start of each turn. So there's less waste than you think but also means leaders routed during the opponent's turns will get no new ones and may at best spend those carried over from previous turns. And please contact me for a PBEM game with C&C on :D once we get 5.0[/B][/QUOTE] MINDSPY For the timely answer to any question a new link is preferable to being buried in another thread. Of course private email always has precedence. If you have a command unit that i s down to one order and are hopeful the following turn it will have generated enough new orders to complete the task of assigning a new objective or bringing the entire formation together ... the question is do i risk moving this turn as a loss of orders could keep me stuck indefinitely or do I just risk it and move? Then I would suggest STOP right there. We need to test many things before we even get close to answering what can be done in this situation. for instance, is it your entire force HQ or one of the junior commanders? [things to consider: does the way i selected my force have any impact? does the new orders only come about as a result of the rank or national characteristics of the unit in question ? does there appear to be an entire force limit ? to the new order generation (is there any increase in success or lack of if one fails to or continually gets new orders) plus any other modifying effects that do or do not appear such as in scenario generated games where the forces are selected on different settings what setting is kept? for the determination of new orders.) It will take time to answer these and our results will only be as good and complete as we our testing was. So ... MINDSPY

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- 3/16/2001 8:45:00 AM

MindSpy

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From: Canada
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MINDSPY This is a quick jot ... let's suppose the command rating of a unit is 9 (very senior officer) let's assume the national characteristic is 75 (a fairly veteran force value indeed so they must have filled a few cemetaries recently with their fallen!) and of course random numbers set to zero then with the formula provided we have [ CommRate + NatCharact - 40 ] / all by 10 = [ 9 + 75 - 40 ] / divided10 = then i could expect 4 orders for the coming turn ... If this is the case then i need only find what other variables will affect those 4 orders per turn for a unit that appears to qualify for those four and how many I could then expect to see in my comm MINDSPY

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- 3/16/2001 9:24:00 AM

MindSpy

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MINDSPY Quick jot it was ... Went to the rules and now that they are in front of me ... Here it says that the number of orders a commander may have at the start of a turn is the number of retained orders plus the number of his new orders. Now depending on rank a commander has anywhere form (General)3 to (Private)0 orders! So how do I get the value OK Let's see it says every turn I get one order for each commander in good order So a Captain would automatically have 1 new order for the start of a turn. He may also retain two unused orders for the next turn (let's assume you had only one order left previously) So the captain on the next turn now has two orders to start with so far. Now the difficult part version 1) if the Captain automatically has 2 orders per turn as based on his rank from the table then we would arrive at 1 + 1 + 2 = 4 (now the Captain can be seen to have 4 orders at teh start of a turn if he is in good order and I know that if I keep two orders available at the end of a turn they will carry over as the rank structure from the table states that the captain may retain two orders. Version 2) There is wording in the rules that states that the new orders gained is based on the formula ( now I don't have the time to look / hunt up National Command Rating at the moment but I would venture the guess that the national Command Rating is the same as the National Experience Values as stated in the SP3 manual which I no longer own but do recall) Now there is a little confusiion of the command value beside the units alphabetic value with the command structure table which clearly does not allow a col to be a value of nine so my earlier posting would be corrected to ... Now let's assume further that the command rating of a unit table found in ther rules is so far correct. then a captain with nat exp char at 75 and rnd set to 0 would be [2 + 75 - 40 + 0(RND NUMB)]/10 = (77 - 40) x 1/10 = 3.7 So although we are off using the formula we are still progressing towards a solution. I'll return if no one beats me to it when I have some more time MINDSPY

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Post #: 5

- 3/16/2001 2:25:00 PM

Kokoda

Posts: 137
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From: Melbourne,Australia
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'ken bewdy guys! (that should confuse those who are struggling with the slang - although my aussie mates will know). You've given me a lot to think about. It looks as though I was wrong in almost every respect :o I'll have to get back to my SP3 manual, collate it with the SPWAW manual, and do a lot of testing and thinking...and possibly do the whole thing over again with 5.0. Thanks for the offer of PBEM. That's something else I'll have to get up to speed on. I thought the offer of a victim would increase the chances of a response. I didn't want to send a personal mail, since some of you guys must get hundreds! Rest assured I'll read the manual, search the threads, and think before I ask more dumb questions. Very happy with the response. You guys approach this with evangelical zeal ( hope 'evangelical' isn't censored - the strangest things are, including the first half of my name. Someone called Chris-topher G-oddard must get irritated!

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CHRIS

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Post #: 6

- 3/16/2001 6:32:00 PM

MindSpy

Posts: 272
Joined: 5/13/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Kokoda: 'ken bewdy guys! (that should confuse those who are struggling with the slang - although my aussie mates will know). You've given me a lot to think about. It looks as though I was wrong in almost every respect :o I'll have to get back to my SP3 manual, collate it with the SPWAW manual, and do a lot of testing and thinking...and possibly do the whole thing over again with 5.0. Thanks for the offer of PBEM. That's something else I'll have to get up to speed on. I thought the offer of a victim would increase the chances of a response. I didn't want to send a personal mail, since some of you guys must get hundreds! Rest assured I'll read the manual, search the threads, and think before I ask more dumb questions. Very happy with the response. You guys approach this with evangelical zeal ( hope 'evangelical' isn't censored - the strangest things are, including the first half of my name. Someone called Chris-topher G-oddard must get irritated!

MINDSPY Well it seems the other thread got answered long before I got back here to try to get some more time into answer ing your question. Hold on there it seems that you have just got me started and laready you are mosying away? Oh well. I can tell you now that the National Command Ratings vary from -20 to 20. You will note now that things are indeed more complex then you thought. The numbers of orders favour the lower ranks as the solution of the equation can only be a negative value. Hence you must want to be in the lowest values to have the largest (absolute value) sum even if it is negative as all the values will be since once you divide through by 10 0 + 0 (dieRoll) -40 + (-20) all x 1/10 = -60 / 10 = 6 for a general and a 9 dieroll 3 + 9 - 40 + (range for nat comm rating was -20 to 20 so now we can ahve a value for the general of -48 to -8 = 4.8 to less than one!? Now clearly someone forgot to type in their absolute value sign. Oh well someitmes knowing how incredibly messy the inner workings are doesn't help you along anymore than not knowing that the inner workings are messy. Hmmmmm. MINDSPY

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- 3/17/2001 3:52:00 AM

Antonius

Posts: 209
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From: Saint Arnoult en Yvelines FRANCE
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In fact I have not bothered much about the maths involved in C&C before this thread came up - but I have a practical knowledge about who gets how many ordes out of playing experience... What I have also learned is with that C&C on it's better to buy whole companies/bataillons to have a longer chain of command and have more orders at my disposal in critical situations. Another lesson is to spend orders from higher echelons only after making sure they are not more needed elsewhere . Ideally you have to analyze the whole situation before doing anything that spends orders and keep some in reserve to be able to surprises. For instance it can be really disappointing to find out an arty spotter can't call all needed artillery missions because A-0 has no orders left....

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Wargamo, ergo sum

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Post #: 8

- 3/18/2001 3:46:00 PM

Kokoda

Posts: 137
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Melbourne,Australia
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At the risk of tedium... I tried using MS XL to create a table of expected orders, then tested the results in a created battle in which I left the troops deployed at the edge of the board to avoid combat and therefore adverse morale states. I think I've got the algebra right now. I could send you the spreadsheet if you're interested. Results look like this... Using the NCR (appendix A) from SP3 1) ...and "Leadership Ratings" (Appendix E) from SP3 - orders seem too high when tested, and the random effects are small because (0-9)<< CR+NCR-40. 2) ...and the CR that you suggested, Mindspy (where a General has 9, and Col presumably smaller) - orders are almost always negative (9+9-40+20)/10. The test was ANZAC forces in '44. I used all orders each turn so that the next turn's orders were always the ones generated, uncomplicated by carry over. In five turns... Col - always 1. Cpt - always 1. (for both inf and armour) 1Lt - always 1. (for armour; no inf 1Lts) Except for my FO vehicle, which gained 3 orders one turn, and 1 the rest. 2Lt - 3@3orders; 4@2orders; 13@1 order. (for inf; no armour 2Lt). So the 2Lts seem to have a lot more flexibility than the force commander :confused: . A0 starts with more orders though. So perhaps your 'absolute value' idea is correct, but it seems counter-intuitive. It may seem a pain in the arse to you that I should persist in trying to understand this, but I feel I need to know what flexibility I have to plan a battle. I've played a few different nationalities and have a feel of what I can do, but if you or Antonius suggest PBEM between Yugoslavian partisans vs Roumania I'll be totally lost! To answer the questions you and Antonius posed - I try to create a force with an extended chain of command as much as possible - selecting Companies rather than smaller units, although in a generated battle (<1000points) this is often not possible and still maintain a balanced force. - I try not to waste orders on individual squads, unless I have no other option, or have some to spare. eg "You men stay here with me to defend this objective. MG section - you occupy building X to provide a crossfire if things get sticky" - I know the orders of a higher ranking officer may be used and tap those as little as possible. - I've found that changing my mind often has worse consequences than sticking to a dubious plan...and many of mine have been dubious! :( Regards, CHRIS

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- 3/18/2001 9:04:00 PM

MindSpy

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MindSpy No not a problem I'd stayed tuned in anyway for when Paul Vebber finds the pdf's listing the cc changes that were made in WAW from SP3 Once they are accessible it should do much to explain the varying results from the tables and formula as well it would help to explain how the game play experience is shaped from the re-evaluated and adjusted form that is now present in WAW from the earlier model as it is I am in a game at at the DEUL where the Tigers are reluctant to advance and orders are scarce so that to get them into position I have been using up other commands orders. odd since usually even a secion of German tanks has more than enough orders to get away with no preset objective flag. then again I need to move almost all m force into position since the Soviets are about to breakout of the minebelt and the tank column that just reached it's ammo dumps for resupply (a fire brigade unit) will need a turn or two of protection till they can return to the battle field. it is tough when only one order is available for a unit neither objective flag can be made nor can the section move as a unit!!! MINDSPY

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