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To anyone proficient in Russian - 3/16/2001 5:24:00 PM

Bob Wallace

Posts: 97
Joined: 2/18/2001
From: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
Status: offline

Hi All, I had posted this on the SPWAW private forum but only got one response (so David suggested I give y'all a shot at this one)... Original Post: I learned Russian while in the military, and while fairly good at reading it, I have always wonderred about something... The Cyrillic spelling of Sevastopol is (as best as I can spell this using English Characters): CMeKAJIOB [the JI are actually merged in one character at the top with a single solid line - almost looks like the mathematical symbol for PI] Now best I can tell, this would be pronounced: 'Svek-a-lov' Am I getting something wrong here? I know that the Cyrillic spelling of Moscow is: MOCKBA Which is prounced 'Mosk-va' so I know that the actual pronunciation of words is different between English and Russian. Like what we call Brest or Brest Livotsk is pronounced something akin to 'Breschad-na-Bugiem' and what we call the Crimea is 'Krim'. But the difference between Sevastopol or Sebastopol and Svyekalov is considerably more different than what I would expect. What are your thoughts comrades?

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Post #: 1

- 3/16/2001 9:50:00 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Wallace: Hi All, I had posted this on the SPWAW private forum but only got one response (so David suggested I give y'all a shot at this one)... Original Post: I learned Russian while in the military, and while fairly good at reading it, I have always wonderred about something... The Cyrillic spelling of Sevastopol is (as best as I can spell this using English Characters): CMeKAJIOB [the JI are actually merged in one character at the top with a single solid line - almost looks like the mathematical symbol for PI] Now best I can tell, this would be pronounced: 'Svek-a-lov' Am I getting something wrong here? I know that the Cyrillic spelling of Moscow is: MOCKBA Which is prounced 'Mosk-va' so I know that the actual pronunciation of words is different between English and Russian. Like what we call Brest or Brest Livotsk is pronounced something akin to 'Breschad-na-Bugiem' and what we call the Crimea is 'Krim'. But the difference between Sevastopol or Sebastopol and Svyekalov is considerably more different than what I would expect. What are your thoughts comrades?

Hi if your forum would support Cyrillic charactors this would be easier All the Ways I know to write Sevastopol Chersonesus is name in Greek(old name) CeBactoIIoJIb (the II should be small or a flat toped n) is Sevastopol in Cyrillic(sounds better right?) (JI is greek Pi for the P sound in Pol) Sebastopol/Sevastopol comes from the Greek Sebastopolis (San Sebastion) Su-Khum-Kale ("Water-Sand Fortress")is the Turkish Crimea is also Krym, (Kpbim) Ukraine is YkpanHa (the n is supposed to be backwards I got distracted in the other forum when it turned all my charactors into Martain writing and never fixed it sorry. We need to get Mist in here. (He is Russian so I sent him an e-mail)

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Post #: 2

- 3/17/2001 4:44:00 AM

Zorfwaddle

Posts: 263
Joined: 3/16/2001
From: Pensacola, FL
Status: offline

Hi... USN Russian linguist here :-) Anyway, Sevastopol is the correct "transliteration" of the Russian, with the exception of the "soft sign" at the end. For an example of the Russian "soft sign" say "Wild Bill" and see were your tongue is during the "l's." In Wild the l has a soft sign, in Bill it doesnt. Doesnt seem like much of a difference to us English speakers but I have gotten points off due to misspelled words w/o a soft sign. ;-) Just an example... Moskva vs Moscow is a different subject... On a different note, the word bistro (you know, that small cafe) has its roots in Russian. When Napoleons troops were on their way to Moscow/Moskva they would stop for booze/tea/what-have-ya at taverns. The Russian word for "quickly" is "bystro," the word the french probably learned to say to the tavern owner in order to grab a bit to eat and go catch up with the army.

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"AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m****rf****r in the room. Accept no substitutes." Ordell Robbie - "Jackie Brown"

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Post #: 3

- 3/17/2001 5:21:00 AM

Pack Rat

Posts: 594
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: north central Pennsylvania USA
Status: offline

Me thinks the N.S.A. has arrived :)

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Post #: 4

- 3/17/2001 5:35:00 AM

Latka

Posts: 157
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Honolulu, HI, USA
Status: offline

(In a dark suit with the prerequisite black sunglasses) "Uh... nothing to see here. Move along please." All this reminds me of the couple 'o Chinese linguists (also USN) that I was buddies with. One evening they broke out some pictures...all sorts of Chinese military hardware, some stuff I've never seen before, up close and personal. When I asked (stupidly) where they came from, they kinda tiptoed around it and said, "Uh, why don't we change the subject?" :) -Andy

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Post #: 5

- 3/17/2001 5:41:00 AM

Zorfwaddle

Posts: 263
Joined: 3/16/2001
From: Pensacola, FL
Status: offline

Hah hah.. your killing me :-)

_____________________________

"AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m****rf****r in the room. Accept no substitutes." Ordell Robbie - "Jackie Brown"

(in reply to Bob Wallace)

Post #: 6

- 3/17/2001 6:26:00 AM

Zorfwaddle

Posts: 263
Joined: 3/16/2001
From: Pensacola, FL
Status: offline

Here's a lsting of similar symbols, from Russian to English: A = A B = V C = S E = E K = K M = M O = O P = R T = T X = Kh (a "khocking" sound produced from the back of your throat :-)) Otherwise, the Cyrillic alphabet has elements of the Greek. We spent a month in Monterey CA just learning the alphabet. Hell of a lot better than learning Kanji or other squigley marks :-).

_____________________________

"AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m****rf****r in the room. Accept no substitutes." Ordell Robbie - "Jackie Brown"

(in reply to Bob Wallace)

Post #: 7

- 3/19/2001 9:22:00 PM

Mist

Posts: 483
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Russia, Moscow
Status: offline

Hi All! Mogami has asked me to help with translation from Russian. I see that others made good points already. But I will say what I can anyway. Sorry for delay but i've been off for weekend. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob Wallace: [B] Sevastopol(��)[Se-va-sto'-pol] is very similar in both English and Russian spelling except of soft 'l' in Russian version. It is Greek word and soft 'l' in Russian is because of better comfort for Russian tongue. CMeKAJIOB-(��)-[Smi-ka-lof']-Smekalov MOCKBA-[�as-kva']-Moskva Brest Litovsk(�� )-[Brest Li-tofsk'] Krim (��) - [Krim] -��re I have some difficulties because the vowel is very special and probably sounds like in -It s- when said quickly. May be I am wrong :) The origin of 'bistro' is explained very different in Russia :))) That's very amazing. Our version is that Russian Cossacs in Paris(1813) asked for quick food in French taverns in this way. I do not insist that it is a real truth, but version this favors me more. :) Well.. I hope that I was helpfull. P.S. Words in the brackets are prononsiations in Russian and '-sign means stress-sign

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Post #: 8

- 3/19/2001 11:15:00 PM

Bob Wallace

Posts: 97
Joined: 2/18/2001
From: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
Status: offline

Hi Mist... As you seem to either speak (fluently) or at least have a good understanding of Russian and/or Cyrillic then I have a question for you that is more to the point. Assuming that my source (WWII Russian Army Engineer Maps) is correct the spelling of Sevastopol/Sebastopol is: CMeKAJIOB with the 'e' being as large as the other characters and the 'JI' actually being one character that looks like this - ******* * * * * * * * * ** * Then my understanding of the Cyrillic pronunciations is as follows: C = 'ess' as in [C]ircus or [S]ong M = 'muh' as in [M]oney e = 'yeh' as in [Ye]sterday K = 'k!' as in [C]andy or [K]ubelwagon A = 'uh' as in [A]live JI = 'luh' as in [L]ove O = 'oh' as in [O]pen B = 'vuh' as in [V]ideo thereby sounding something like: "Smyek a lov" Now one of three things are going on here... 1.) My understanding of Cyrillic prounciation is flawed 2.) My spelling of Sevastopol is wrong (or more appropriately my sourceis wrong) 3.) There is some special rule in the Russian language that I am not aware of. Or all of the above, so I guess there couls be four things ;) If you get a chance please let me know. Bob P.S. I have seen Moscow spelled as: Mockba and Mockby... are these two different words? I know the first one would be pronounced 'Mosk-vah' and the second as 'Mosk-vee' I am not sure if this is another of those special rules Thanks

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"That which does not kill me usually leaves me wishing I was dead!"

(in reply to Bob Wallace)

Post #: 9

- 3/19/2001 11:16:00 PM

Bob Wallace

Posts: 97
Joined: 2/18/2001
From: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
Status: offline

Wow, I just looked at the post and my attempt at using asterices to show the character totally got screwed when I posted... I am sure you know which charater I mean though ;)

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"That which does not kill me usually leaves me wishing I was dead!"

(in reply to Bob Wallace)

Post #: 10

- 3/20/2001 5:17:00 AM

Zorfwaddle

Posts: 263
Joined: 3/16/2001
From: Pensacola, FL
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Mist: Hi All! Mogami has asked me to help with translation from Russian. I see that others made good points already. But I will say what I can anyway. Sorry for delay but i've been off for weekend. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob Wallace: [B] Sevastopol(��)[Se-va-sto'-pol] is very similar in both English and Russian spelling except of soft 'l' in Russian version. It is Greek word and soft 'l' in Russian is because of better comfort for Russian tongue. CMeKAJIOB-(��)-[Smi-ka-lof']-Smekalov MOCKBA-[�as-kva']-Moskva Brest Litovsk(�� )-[Brest Li-tofsk'] Krim (��) - [Krim] -��re I have some difficulties because the vowel is very special and probably sounds like in -It s- when said quickly. May be I am wrong :) Nope... that sounds right to me. "ee" (as in "bee") said way back in the throat :-) The origin of 'bistro' is explained very different in Russia :))) That's very amazing. Our version is that Russian Cossacs in Paris(1813) asked for quick food in French taverns in this way. I do not insist that it is a real truth, but version this favors me more. :) LOL... thats funny because my teacher, who was from Odessa, gave me the story about the French on their way to Moscow. :-) Who knows? <> Well.. I hope that I was helpfull. P.S. Words in the brackets are prononsiations in Russian and '-sign means stress-sign

_____________________________

"AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m****rf****r in the room. Accept no substitutes." Ordell Robbie - "Jackie Brown"

(in reply to Bob Wallace)

Post #: 11

- 3/20/2001 5:26:00 AM

Zorfwaddle

Posts: 263
Joined: 3/16/2001
From: Pensacola, FL
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Wallace: Hi Mist... As you seem to either speak (fluently) or at least have a good understanding of Russian and/or Cyrillic then I have a question for you that is more to the point. Assuming that my source (WWII Russian Army Engineer Maps) is correct the spelling of Sevastopol/Sebastopol is: CMeKAJIOB Nope... the correct spelling of Sevastopol', in a semblance of Cyrillic is CEBACTOnOJIb the small n represents the "p" sound while JI is the "l" sound and the b is the symbol for soft sign. CMeKAJIOB is explained in Mist's post. with the 'e' being as large as the other characters and the 'JI' actually being one character that looks like this - ******* * * * * * * * * ** * Then my understanding of the Cyrillic pronunciations is as follows: C = 'ess' as in [C]ircus or [S]ong M = 'muh' as in [M]oney e = 'yeh' as in [Ye]sterday K = 'k!' as in [C]andy or [K]ubelwagon A = 'uh' as in [A]live JI = 'luh' as in [L]ove O = 'oh' as in [O]pen B = 'vuh' as in [V]ideo thereby sounding something like: "Smyek a lov" Yep. Now one of three things are going on here... 1.) My understanding of Cyrillic prounciation is flawed No, its great. 2.) My spelling of Sevastopol is wrong (or more appropriately my sourceis wrong) Yes. 3.) There is some special rule in the Russian language that I am not aware of. Oh, man, do they got some special rules! :-) Not as bad as english tho! :-) Or all of the above, so I guess there couls be four things ;) If you get a chance please let me know. Bob P.S. I have seen Moscow spelled as: Mockba and Mockby... are these two different words? I know the first one would be pronounced 'Mosk-vah' and the second as 'Mosk-vee' I am not sure if this is another of those special rules This is a declension thing. Russian has cases like German, so you can have Moskva, Moskvy, Moskve. Moskva is basic, Moskvy would be used when talking about "someone from Moscow" or "troops of Moscow." Same applies to nearly every word in Russian. Its one of the most difficult parts of learning Russian, matching cases with prepositions... The worst part is participles :-) Thanks

_____________________________

"AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m****rf****r in the room. Accept no substitutes." Ordell Robbie - "Jackie Brown"

(in reply to Bob Wallace)

Post #: 12

- 3/20/2001 6:31:00 AM

MrPlow

Posts: 34
Joined: 2/17/2001
From: Missouri
Status: offline

Lot of confusion with no standard transliteration system. Simple example: HET Cyrillic NET Library of Congress system - letter for letter, irrespective of sound NYET phoneme system - sound for sound, irrespective of letters Like when the Chinese transliteration system was changed and Mao Tse Tung disappeared from history - to be replaced by somebody called Mao Zhe Dong. Just confusion.

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Post #: 13