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Ammo storage explosion - 5/10/2014 5:29:19 PM

linrom

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/20/2002
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Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 14
B5N2 Kate x 30
D3A1 Val x 30

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 37

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 8 destroyed, 4 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 5 destroyed, 4 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CA Indianapolis
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 2
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
7 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
3 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
7 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-3 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-42 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-221 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 7 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers

Ammo storage explosion on CV Yorktown
_________________________________________________________________________

What are the chances that she sank?

Also why is my hit percentage so low? Out of 31 bombers, I only got 3 hits.

Post #: 1

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/10/2014 5:35:27 PM

ny59giants

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I tend to count either an Ammo or Fuel Explosion as an extra torpedo hit. Usually, it takes 4 or 5 torpedo hits to sink an American CV. But they can go down with less. The AI will have her show up on the sunk list (almost all torpedo hits do), but I doubt she is sunk.

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Post #: 2

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/10/2014 5:36:03 PM

Yaab

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You had 34 bombs/torps and scored 3 hits with them, so the hit ratio is OK, under 10%. I have just had 12% hit ratio on a DD/AK TF with no CAP. Your result seems reasonable.

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Post #: 3

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/10/2014 5:52:07 PM

linrom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

You had 34 bombs/torps and scored 3 hits with them, so the hit ratio is OK, under 10%. I have just had 12% hit ratio on a DD/AK TF with no CAP. Your result seems reasonable.

No , she did not show up the next day on SUNK list.

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Post #: 4

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/10/2014 6:42:32 PM

seille

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From: Germany
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Did you see large numbers of allied CV planes destroyed on ground this turn ?
If not she is probably alive.

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Post #: 5

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/10/2014 7:01:53 PM

Cribtop

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From: Lone Star Nation
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I once sank Ent with only 3 bomb hits, one of which was an ammo storage explosion, but I was frankly shocked when I later learned she sank. That was a very unusual result. I would be similarly surprised if you got a sinking here. The most reliable sign, as was previously stated, is a large number of CV plane Ops losses.

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Post #: 6

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/10/2014 7:10:21 PM

KenchiSulla

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From: the Netherlands
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If the crew gets fires under control 3 bomb hits is not much. Raging fires on open sea often mean the death of a ship. It's the first damage type I look at.

The picture shows on fire, so it means Yorktown was burning when the aircraft left the scene. As damage seems to be low I would say Yorktown is fine with some system damage from fires and maybe 15-30 Major float damage. If you saw the counter flooding message then Yorktown has some minor floatation damage but that will be manageable as system damage is low..

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 5/10/2014 8:11:15 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/10/2014 9:11:55 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

Did you see large numbers of allied CV planes destroyed on ground this turn ?
If not she is probably alive.

This. In particular, look for SBD and TBD. The F4Fs were in the air, so they might have made it to a base within range.

quote:

Japanese Ships
SS I-9

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA Chester
DD Gridley
DD Balch
DD Fanning
DD Dunlap
DD Ellet

Fuel storage explosion on CV Enterprise

^ Result from my game = sunk. Yours, however...likely not sunk. Typically with Allied DC On, you need to see "on fire, heavy damage" or "heavy fires" before something will sink. You see "heavy damage" whenever any of the 3 categories for damage is 50 or above. This could even be System damage.

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Post #: 8

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/10/2014 9:59:22 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

...Typically with Allied DC On, you need to see "on fire, heavy damage" or "heavy fires" before something will sink. You see "heavy damage" whenever any of the 3 categories for damage is 50 or above. This could even be System damage.

And even then, allied ships can survive. IJN ships? Yeah, I've lost them to 4 or 6 Fire ...

... which escalated out of control .... you just never know with IJN ships ... very fragile.

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Post #: 9

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 4:35:04 AM

crsutton

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No, it is highly unlikely that you sunk her. Magazine explosion on a surface ship seems to always sink the ship but ammo storage or fuel explosion on an Allied carrier should not sink them unless you have multiple hits to go along with it. Still, nice to put a hole in her.

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Post #: 10

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 9:35:54 AM

czert2

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Yeah, japanese damage controll is, well how to put it.....sometimes i think they work for enemy. I lost xAK with 8/15/6 when it was on sea.
No idea if it was due to flooding or fire.

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Post #: 11

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 12:15:50 PM

tigercub

Posts: 2004
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From: brisbane oz
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if it has supply on it they burn like plastic Christmas trees!

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Post #: 12

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 12:49:32 PM

Gaspote

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From: France
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You don't get her with sub ? I know I always get a sub screen to catch damaged ships in combat area.

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Post #: 13

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 1:20:15 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

Yeah, japanese damage controll is, well how to put it.....sometimes i think they work for enemy. I lost xAK with 8/15/6 when it was on sea.
No idea if it was due to flooding or fire.

I've lost the Kaga with damage like that ...

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Post #: 14

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 1:34:40 PM

nashvillen

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From: Christiana, TN
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Sure way to lose a IJN carrier is to run a damaged one at mission speed instead of setting them to cruise. Rarely have I lost a damaged IJN carrier if it doesn't outright sink when doing this.

I figured this out after losing the Ryuijo just outside Singapore harbor from a sneaky Dutch sub and then the Akagi after an exchange in the Solomans. After that, I didn't lose a single carrier after the battle was over. I had several CVEs get torpedoed instead of my valuable Tankers, but still get the CVE to a port to fix it back up and return to Tanker decoy duties.

Just be careful with your speed after the battle is over and they will survive.

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Post #: 15

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 1:54:23 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nashvillen

Sure way to lose a IJN carrier is to run a damaged one at mission speed instead of setting them to cruise. Rarely have I lost a damaged IJN carrier if it doesn't outright sink when doing this.

I figured this out after losing the Ryuijo just outside Singapore harbor from a sneaky Dutch sub and then the Akagi after an exchange in the Solomans. After that, I didn't lose a single carrier after the battle was over. I had several CVEs get torpedoed instead of my valuable Tankers, but still get the CVE to a port to fix it back up and return to Tanker decoy duties.

Just be careful with your speed after the battle is over and they will survive.

Nope, I lost the Kaga at cruise with 4 DD escorts. You are correct, generally cruise works, but with the IJN you can't be sure ...

... or at least I can't be.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 5/11/2014 2:54:49 PM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 1:55:18 PM

Numdydar

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+1 to this.

Cruise speed is the key to surviving major damage for both sides.

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Post #: 17

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 2:02:35 PM

Cavalry Corp

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I sank the Lex with 1 x 250kg bomb from a Kate - caught fire and did not go out. The allied player confirmed it to me.
No critical or anything just a fire that got bigger.

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Post #: 18

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 2:08:23 PM

nashvillen

Posts: 3836
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From: Christiana, TN
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Sounds like you rolled snake-eyes, twice!

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Post #: 19

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 7:04:15 PM

geofflambert

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Also why is my hit percentage so low? Out of 31 bombers, I only got 3 hits.

CAP doesn't have to shoot every plane down, the ones that survived were still disrupted by them and weren't as efficient or effective as they otherwise might be. It's unusual to get more hits with that much CAP in your way, in proportion to your escorts. Dive bombers dropping at 3000ft is not very good, as opposed to 2000ft. That could be due to disruption but more likely insufficient training would be my guess.

edit: Furthermore, the percentage of fighters on CAP will affect your escort effectiveness. If my F vs B ratio is healthy, I generally use 30% CAP. So far this has served me well. Some use 40, 50 or even more, which I think is unwise. But this brings up another issue, which is what is the appropriate percentage of fighters on a carrier to bombers. Both the IJN and the USN begin with about 30% fighters aboard. This is inadequate and the USN adjusted accordingly. In my view it should be closer to 50% than 30%. Flak will deliver a more or less fixed % of losses to your attack, but the CAP may totally stop your attack if you have insufficient escort.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 5/11/2014 8:14:44 PM >

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Post #: 20

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/11/2014 11:11:03 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I sank the Lex with 1 x 250kg bomb from a Kate - caught fire and did not go out. The allied player confirmed it to me.
No critical or anything just a fire that got bigger.

Stories like this help convince me that, in some alternate universe, the Lex has special code for fires. Once they're started, they don't go out, like history. In my first AI game she was hit with one sub torpedo in the middle of the ocean, Sys and fires started in the 20s and she sank 5 days later.

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Post #: 21

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/12/2014 5:01:07 PM

czert2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I sank the Lex with 1 x 250kg bomb from a Kate - caught fire and did not go out. The allied player confirmed it to me.
No critical or anything just a fire that got bigger.

Stories like this help convince me that, in some alternate universe, the Lex has special code for fires. Once they're started, they don't go out, like history. In my first AI game she was hit with one sub torpedo in the middle of the ocean, Sys and fires started in the 20s and she sank 5 days later.

Well, i call it karma.

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Post #: 22

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/12/2014 5:38:59 PM

kaleun

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I've lost a US carrier to a single torpedo hit, it was on Dec 8 41 and I think it was the Big E.
On my current game as Japan, a sub put a single torpedo on Yorktown and the AI keeps telling Daihonei that it sunk, but E, with 4 penetrating and 1 non penetrating BH plus one TH is not reported as sunk.

Nagumo acts as if Enterprise is gone but Yorktown is not. (There Craksabbath now you know why he's doing what he's doing, or was a few weeks ago

)

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Post #: 23

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/12/2014 6:56:23 PM

AW1Steve

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Wasp is my "bad luck CV". Normally she takes one small torpedo hit. I bring her to the port, dock her , and she blows up and sinks!

But I think in my latest PBEM I've broken the jinx. She took 3 torpedoes, made it to the dock, unloaded her entire air group (unscratched!) and is rapidly repairing!

I need to sacrifice a circuit board to the electronic Gods.

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Post #: 24

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/12/2014 7:10:56 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

Yeah, japanese damage controll is, well how to put it.....sometimes i think they work for enemy. I lost xAK with 8/15/6 when it was on sea.
No idea if it was due to flooding or fire.

I've lost the Kaga with damage like that ...

What rotten luck!

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Post #: 25

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/12/2014 7:20:38 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

Yeah, japanese damage controll is, well how to put it.....sometimes i think they work for enemy. I lost xAK with 8/15/6 when it was on sea.
No idea if it was due to flooding or fire.

I've lost the Kaga with damage like that ...

What rotten luck!

I was expecting you to say the same about our game!

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Post #: 26

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/12/2014 7:29:51 PM

Erkki

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I've managed to hit the Yorktown twice in PBEMs. The first time she took a couple of torp hits and a dozen bombs and went down. The second time a submarine found her deep inside the gauntlet or ASW ships and put 2 torps onto her: "massive explosive damage" and the second torpedo resulted in "fuel storage explosion" and "listing, counter flooding". Se went down the turn after, 1 hex from Sydney.

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Post #: 27

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/12/2014 7:35:49 PM

Chickenboy

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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

Yeah, japanese damage controll is, well how to put it.....sometimes i think they work for enemy. I lost xAK with 8/15/6 when it was on sea.
No idea if it was due to flooding or fire.

I've lost the Kaga with damage like that ...

What rotten luck!

I was expecting you to say the same about our game!

When would putting three TTs into an Allied CV and putting it out of action for weeks/ months ever be a bad thing? Sure, it coulda been better for me if she'd sunk outright with her aircrew. But I could have also *not hit her*. That would have been bad luck.

It's all about perspective, mate.

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Post #: 28

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/12/2014 7:40:31 PM

AW1Steve

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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

Yeah, japanese damage controll is, well how to put it.....sometimes i think they work for enemy. I lost xAK with 8/15/6 when it was on sea.
No idea if it was due to flooding or fire.

I've lost the Kaga with damage like that ...

What rotten luck!

I was expecting you to say the same about our game!

When would putting three TTs into an Allied CV and putting it out of action for weeks/ months ever be a bad thing? Sure, it coulda been better for me if she'd sunk outright with her aircrew. But I could have also *not hit her*. That would have been bad luck.

It's all about perspective, mate.

She's the WASP dude! The slowest , underarmed US CV. She's a glorifed CVE......the CV's not that valuable. But the aircrew....they escaped without a scratch. And the way I see it , you used up a HUGE ration of luck. That won't be around later.

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Post #: 29

RE: Ammo storage explosion - 5/13/2014 12:51:39 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
you used up a HUGE ration of luck.

Uh...no. If I'd used up the luck, I'd have sunk her with one magazine explosion. This comparatively 'unlucky' or 'underlucky' experience is actually banking luck. Bad joss for you, Allied dog! Bad joss!