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OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 5:49:27 AM   
temagic


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Hi there,

Just thought I'd see if I could attract some replies on this question of alternative history. The question is this:

Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?
Post #: 1
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 9:10:44 AM   
czert2

 

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I dont think, since it was nuking which put 180 degree in thinking to japanese heads. OTOH if japs decide voluntary to pull out from china and other states without war...well something similiar must happened to them without nuking.
And to more precisely tell that story, it will need here that someone who lived in japan during post-war ocupation (say 50-60s) - to tell us how much occupation changed japanese minds.
Since without this occupation and changing of minds it bringed - even with voluntary withdrawing and chosing stringly self-defence as happened post war, results will be different.

(in reply to temagic)
Post #: 2
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 10:55:27 AM   
tocaff


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The culture and mindset of Japan precluded a pullout from China. The Americans and British realized that the threat of the embargo would place Tokyo in a position that there was only one real choice, embargo and war.

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(in reply to czert2)
Post #: 3
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 3:27:19 PM   
btd64


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I think if the Japanese pulled out, they would of had to think of some way to BUY resources. Would of had to convert to Regular product manufacturing or something. Then sold those products to buy the oil, steel, etc that they needed. GP

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Post #: 4
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 3:45:48 PM   
mind_messing

 

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You'd still likely see Japan involved in a war of some sort. It was an expansionist power with imperial ambitions in a region of the world where there was very little territory to expand into.

Japanese culture would remain very traditional, as you'd not have the population as exposed to "American" culture as happened following the occupation.

On a regional scale, you wouldn't have a Japan commited to non-aggression, and as a result Japanese foriegn policy wouldn't be anywhere near as passive.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

The culture and mindset of Japan precluded a pullout from China. The Americans and British realized that the threat of the embargo would place Tokyo in a position that there was only one real choice, embargo and war.



It wasn't even a choice between embargo or war. By the embargo in 1940, Japan had already been shedding blood in China for three years, not a fact which would encourage Japan to back down to the United States (which was in the process of supplying the Chinese war effort).

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 5
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 4:55:25 PM   
Werewolf13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic

Hi there,

Just thought I'd see if I could attract some replies on this question of alternative history. The question is this:

Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?


Do the US/UK/NL call off their embargo? If so - that's a major game changer. No WIP and the allies beat the crap out of Hitler in Europe by 43. If Stalin is smart enough to stay out of the fray the USSR might get a pass but if they jump in and take their share of Poland I can see the Allies bombing the commies back into the Stone Age and maybe even Japan going into Siberia without molesting China.


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(in reply to temagic)
Post #: 6
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 5:00:34 PM   
tocaff


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No, after beating Germany and Italy the US and GB would've been war weary and no war with the USSR unless something way out of line happened.

Japan in Siberia was a no go. The USSR had smacked the Japanese earlier with their armor and besides being mineral rich in Siberia who knew and who had the technology back then to get at it?

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(in reply to Werewolf13)
Post #: 7
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 5:37:25 PM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326


quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic

Hi there,

Just thought I'd see if I could attract some replies on this question of alternative history. The question is this:

Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?


Do the US/UK/NL call off their embargo? If so - that's a major game changer. No WIP and the allies beat the crap out of Hitler in Europe by 43. If Stalin is smart enough to stay out of the fray the USSR might get a pass but if they jump in and take their share of Poland I can see the Allies bombing the commies back into the Stone Age and maybe even Japan going into Siberia without molesting China.



US entry into the war was triggered by the Japanese attack. If Japan doesn't attack the US doesn't (probably) enter and therefore send troops to Europe. So do the Allies, as you say, beat the crap out of Hitler. I doubt that would be the case unless Roosevelt found some other way to take the US in.

< Message edited by Chris H -- 5/11/2014 6:38:40 PM >

(in reply to Werewolf13)
Post #: 8
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 6:23:28 PM   
Werewolf13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326


quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic

Hi there,

Just thought I'd see if I could attract some replies on this question of alternative history. The question is this:

Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?


Do the US/UK/NL call off their embargo? If so - that's a major game changer. No WIP and the allies beat the crap out of Hitler in Europe by 43. If Stalin is smart enough to stay out of the fray the USSR might get a pass but if they jump in and take their share of Poland I can see the Allies bombing the commies back into the Stone Age and maybe even Japan going into Siberia without molesting China.



US entry into the war was triggered by the Japanese attack. If Japan doesn't attack the US doesn't (probably) enter and therefore send troops to Europe. So do the Allies, as you say, beat the crap out of Hitler. I doubt that would be the case unless Roosevelt found some other way to take the US in.


Lefties like FDR always find a way to get what they want - legal or not. He'd have figured a way to drag us into the war in Europe IMO. Had to. Hitler was a much greater threat to the US than Japan ever was. FDR would've figured out a way in.


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(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 9
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 7:49:07 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326


quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic

Hi there,

Just thought I'd see if I could attract some replies on this question of alternative history. The question is this:

Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?


Do the US/UK/NL call off their embargo? If so - that's a major game changer. No WIP and the allies beat the crap out of Hitler in Europe by 43. If Stalin is smart enough to stay out of the fray the USSR might get a pass but if they jump in and take their share of Poland I can see the Allies bombing the commies back into the Stone Age and maybe even Japan going into Siberia without molesting China.



No oil embargo means Japan is free to focus on defeating China. The whole reason Japan went to war with the Allies was to allow the conflict against China to carry on in the hope of a successful conclusion.

No War in the Pacific means no direct US involvement in Europe, leading to Britain being kept out of mainland Europe.

Control of Europe will go to whoever wins: Germany or the Soviet Union.

(in reply to Werewolf13)
Post #: 10
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 7:56:59 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic
Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?

Suppose Spain followed in Portugal’s footsteps in the, 13th century, and leapfrogged down the coast of Africa, and thus didn’t feel the need to support Christoforo Colombo. Would Chile be as good a country to live in today as it is?

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(in reply to temagic)
Post #: 11
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 10:21:03 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic
Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?

Suppose Spain followed in Portugal’s footsteps in the, 13th century, and leapfrogged down the coast of Africa, and thus didn’t feel the need to support Christoforo Colombo. Would Chile be as good a country to live in today as it is?

Now that's a good question!

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(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 12
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/11/2014 10:37:18 PM   
zuluhour


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suppose Franco joins the axis just after "Torch".

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Post #: 13
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 12:40:36 AM   
btd64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

suppose Franco joins the axis just after "Torch".


French forces in north africa were not that strong or well organized. Based on what I read about 20 years ago. Operational art of war III does have a scenario called Europe Aflame, I think, That has an option to have the French in north africa fight on the axis side. That is a scenario that covers from sept 1, 39 to the end of the war, from the horn of africa in the south to northern norway in the north, and from eastern usa to well past moscow in the east. Big game, 1/2 week or one week turns I believe. I haven't had the time to play it. WITPAE GP


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Post #: 14
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 4:14:43 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

suppose Franco joins the axis just after "Torch".


French forces in north africa were not that strong or well organized. Based on what I read about 20 years ago. Operational art of war III does have a scenario called Europe Aflame, I think, That has an option to have the French in north africa fight on the axis side. That is a scenario that covers from sept 1, 39 to the end of the war, from the horn of africa in the south to northern norway in the north, and from eastern usa to well past moscow in the east. Big game, 1/2 week or one week turns I believe. I haven't had the time to play it. WITPAE GP



French forces in North Africa were not that weak. They did not put up much of a fight because they followed orders.

Alfred

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 15
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 4:19:55 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic
Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?

Suppose Spain followed in Portugal’s footsteps in the, 13th century, and leapfrogged down the coast of Africa, and thus didn’t feel the need to support Christoforo Colombo. Would Chile be as good a country to live in today as it is?


I'll see you and raise you; what if the 3 legions were not lost and the frontier was permanently moved east at least to the Elbe? Would the 5th century western collapse thereby have been averted and the Roman Empire still exist.

Alfred

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 16
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 5:16:11 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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It is unlikely, based on later experience, that the Empire could have expanded to the Elbe *and* held those gains. They couldn't hold Dacia or Armenia, nor Mesopotamia, under Trajan and his successors who, arguably, had a stronger army and better leadership than the Julio-Claudians ...

The problem was, as with so many things historical, the economics ... the Roman economy simply couldn't support the sort of armed force needed to defend itself and expand itself much further than it did historically ... especially in the west where the potential conquests were basically sparsely populated trackless wilderness of no economic value in the short or medium (and probably medium-long) terms. It wasn't any better to the south - if anything, Africa was worse because of the sharp disease gradient - and to the east, well, the Sassanians and Parthians were a formidable foe that the Romans were never quite able to take down (again, largely because of economics).

You also have the problem that, historically, the plagues that hit the Mediterranean world in the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD were an inevitable byproduct of the expansion of the Empire (and its neighbouring Macedonian Successor/Sassanian/Parthian Empires/Kingdoms as well) which linked the Asian, South Asian, African and European disease pools ... to the extreme detriment of the Empire's manpower (and therefore economic) base.

If you expand the Empire more, sooner, and into lands that will be an economic drain, then the impact of the plagues ... which can't be avoided with then current medical knowledge or technology ... will be worse, if anything, weakening the Empire sooner and much more than historically.

All in all, somewhat paradoxically, I'd suggest that the chances are that the very success you suggest would very likely (if not certainly, cogitations on alternate history being very much 'for the want of a horseshoe nail' sort of things) be a bad thing, survival wise.

Then, of course, given the manpower intensive nature of warfare where the technology of the day provided virtually no force multipliers while, on the other hand, *training* did ... the Romans won more often than not because of superior training (and the elan/morale that comes from that), but this could be shattered quite easily ... defeats like Teutoburgerwald, Carrhae and Adrianople all had long term effects that were very similar, it's just fortunate that the earlier ones weren't followed up (for whatever reason) by the victorious enemies ...

Some historians have suggested that Adrianople was, in fact, the end of the Roman (Professional) Imperial Army because so many of its trained Field Army troops (especially from the Western Dioceses) were lost, and there simply wasn't anyone (or any time) to train back up to strength ... the Late East Roman (Byzantine) Army being a very different creature and, of course, the West collapsing ... some of those historians go further and suggest that it is virtually a certainty that, even if Adrianople hadn't been a disastrous defeat, a disaster *like* Adrianople was simply inevitable because of the relatively slim margins the Roman 'force multipliers' offered their armies.

YMMV.

Phil

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(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 17
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 5:40:32 AM   
temagic


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Thanks for you input guys. :D Much appreciated.

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Post #: 18
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 3:03:29 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic
Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?

Suppose Spain followed in Portugal’s footsteps in the, 13th century, and leapfrogged down the coast of Africa, and thus didn’t feel the need to support Christoforo Colombo. Would Chile be as good a country to live in today as it is?


I'll see you and raise you; what if the 3 legions were not lost and the frontier was permanently moved east at least to the Elbe? Would the 5th century western collapse thereby have been averted and the Roman Empire still exist.

Alfred


And also if Fangaur the bronthosaur, while trying to sidestep that pesky asteroid, accidentially had squashed King Riko the Rat, remote predecessor of Alexander the Great - would now my orange juice taste different?

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Post #: 19
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 6:05:39 PM   
bartrat


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>>>And also if Fangaur the bronthosaur, while trying to sidestep that pesky asteroid,
>>accidentially had squashed King Riko the Rat, remote predecessor of Alexander the Great - would now my orange juice taste different?


Maybe....

Some scientists believe that small mammals (very early versions of rats and other small mammals) were out-competing the dinosaurs. The huge asteroid 65 million years ago that wiped out the dinosaurs may have just done them in quickly. So sqaushing King Riko the protoRat likely would have far greater effects than you might at first imagine.


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Post #: 20
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 6:43:50 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic

Hi there,

Just thought I'd see if I could attract some replies on this question of alternative history. The question is this:

Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?



It would have taken a nuclear attack to force Japan to pull out of China. Japan had invested so much of itself that the military overlords would not have been able to conceive of pulling out. Both investments of treasure and lives would have precluded this. And of course neither the USA leaders , nor the Japanese could even remotely understand each others viewpoint. Japan was being run by a "Army Junta". The USA , politicians relying on the advice of financiers.
Roosevelt , at the advisement of treasury secretary Morgenthau , conceived of the economic boycott of Japan, to avoid war but to coerce Japan to leave China and French Indochina. From the point of view of a businessman , the logical (in fact only) move would have been to withdraw. The thought of war was unthinkable.

The Japanese Junta , were not businessmen , and saw this as an economic attack. They had never forgiven the west for interfering with the Russo-Japanese war , (they saw it as depriving them of well deserved victories by "trickery" since Japan was on the economic ropes. To the Junta Honor was at stake. And obviously "businessmen" had no honor , no staying power and would sue for peace immediately. The two parties simply didn't have a clue what each other was thinking , and those who did , like the Japanese Navy , or Americans like Ambassador Joseph Grew, could not convince them.

So Japan would not have pulled out. What MIGHT have worked , would be for Japan to ignore the embargo and go to war with Holland and possibly the United Kingdom. The USA probably would not have entered the war (certainly not in 1941/42) . And Japan could do without the Philippines. Especially if it had the DEI and possibly Malaya.

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Post #: 21
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 6:44:14 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

I dont think, since it was nuking which put 180 degree in thinking to japanese heads. OTOH if japs decide voluntary to pull out from china and other states without war...well something similiar must happened to them without nuking.
And to more precisely tell that story, it will need here that someone who lived in japan during post-war ocupation (say 50-60s) - to tell us how much occupation changed japanese minds.
Since without this occupation and changing of minds it bringed - even with voluntary withdrawing and chosing stringly self-defence as happened post war, results will be different.



+1


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Post #: 22
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 6:45:39 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

The culture and mindset of Japan precluded a pullout from China. The Americans and British realized that the threat of the embargo would place Tokyo in a position that there was only one real choice, embargo and war.

Actually the USA and UK Didn't realize how they backed Japan into a corner. THEY were looking at "bottom line". The Japanese were looking at the insult to their honor.

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Post #: 23
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 6:47:51 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

suppose Franco joins the axis just after "Torch".


Spain was in too big a mess to join anybody. It would continue to be till the late 60's. When I 1st went their in the 70's it was still showing effects of the war.

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Post #: 24
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 6:51:23 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

suppose Franco joins the axis just after "Torch".


French forces in north africa were not that strong or well organized. Based on what I read about 20 years ago. Operational art of war III does have a scenario called Europe Aflame, I think, That has an option to have the French in north africa fight on the axis side. That is a scenario that covers from sept 1, 39 to the end of the war, from the horn of africa in the south to northern norway in the north, and from eastern usa to well past moscow in the east. Big game, 1/2 week or one week turns I believe. I haven't had the time to play it. WITPAE GP



French forces in North Africa were not that weak. They did not put up much of a fight because they followed orders.

Alfred

They were also sharply divided. If one faction had attacked , the other would have attacked the attackers. By "mostly" standing down and not firing a shot ("except for the honor of the flag") it avoided "blue on blue" and mostly stayed undamaged. Of course the fact that the British troops claimed to be American helped. The French had no beef with the Americans. Had the Brits gone in under their own flag , you might have seen much heavier resistance.

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Post #: 25
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 6:52:24 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic
Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?

Suppose Spain followed in Portugal’s footsteps in the, 13th century, and leapfrogged down the coast of Africa, and thus didn’t feel the need to support Christoforo Colombo. Would Chile be as good a country to live in today as it is?


I'll see you and raise you; what if the 3 legions were not lost and the frontier was permanently moved east at least to the Elbe? Would the 5th century western collapse thereby have been averted and the Roman Empire still exist.

Alfred


And also if Fangaur the bronthosaur, while trying to sidestep that pesky asteroid, accidentially had squashed King Riko the Rat, remote predecessor of Alexander the Great - would now my orange juice taste different?

+1

_____________________________


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Post #: 26
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 7:00:33 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
So Japan would not have pulled out. What MIGHT have worked , would be for Japan to ignore the embargo and go to war with Holland and possibly the United Kingdom. The USA probably would not have entered the war (certainly not in 1941/42) . And Japan could do without the Philippines. Especially if it had the DEI and possibly Malaya.


I also think that, had there been some voices of moderation in Japan, they could have negotiated their withdrawal from China proper if the embargo was reversed. They could probably have held Manchuko, Port Arthur and Korea with a well-negotiated settlement too. Tremendous resources there. Had they given *a little* on their expansionist goals, they may have found some 'wiggle room' and been able to sidestep the war with the Allies.

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Post #: 27
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/12/2014 7:05:26 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic
Suppose Japan withdrew from China and Indochina in 1941 and didn't start any new war of conquest, would Japan be as good a country to live in today as it is?

Suppose Spain followed in Portugal’s footsteps in the, 13th century, and leapfrogged down the coast of Africa, and thus didn’t feel the need to support Christoforo Colombo. Would Chile be as good a country to live in today as it is?


I'll see you and raise you; what if the 3 legions were not lost and the frontier was permanently moved east at least to the Elbe? Would the 5th century western collapse thereby have been averted and the Roman Empire still exist.

Alfred


And also if Fangaur the bronthosaur, while trying to sidestep that pesky asteroid, accidentially had squashed King Riko the Rat, remote predecessor of Alexander the Great - would now my orange juice taste different?


Probably not.

Now your strawberry tart (without so much rat in it) would likely taste very different.

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/bishop.php

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Post #: 28
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/13/2014 8:11:10 AM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
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Something James Burke said in his original Connections has sat with me for many years. He had a segment on what Germany's lot was with the rest of Europe in the late 1800s. Germany had pulled itself together from a collection of city states into a complete country. They led the world in some sciences and had one of the strongest economies in Europe, but in the words of Burke, "the rest of Europe treated them like they had collective BO."

WW I and II in Europe were driven at least in part by the fact that the leading powers of Europe, France and Britain didn't really think much of Germany. Europe didn't think much of the US either, but the US was so isolationist it didn't really care that much. After WW I President Wilson wanted to treat Germany and the other defeated powers with some respect, but the UK and France wouldn't hear of it, especially in the case of Germany who was economically enslaved for losing the war.

In the Pacific, Japan had a similar problem. Japan had gone from a medieval culture to a modern industrial power over the period of only a few decades. Probably the most dramatic modernization in history. However the rest of the world, especially the US treated them as an errant child and gave them no respect. Japan felt as part of the industrialized club they should have an empire too. They carved out some, but thought they should be the dominant power in eastern Asia.

Economic sanctions have sometimes worked, but the US also didn't think Japan would be crazy enough to take it on. The US had over 50% of the production capacity of the entire planet in 1940. Japan's industrial economy was the best in Asia, but it was tiny compared to the US. Japan had built a fairly strong navy pre-war, but the US knew they could over produce Japan. The US also vastly underestimated Japan's ability to build quality and train expert warriors.

The Japanese could have probably beaten just the Dutch and the British, but leaving the Philippines alone left a very potent potential enemy lying across their most vital shipping lane back to the Home Islands. It would leave the US alone to continue arming and build up the Philippines into a fortress. Japanese incursions into the SRA would have undoubtedly seen Roosevelt going to Congress to ask for more funds to build the defenses MacArthur wanted in the PI. Allowing the US to arm would have left Japan at a major disadvantage when the US decided to join the war in its own terms. Most of the capital ships to see action during the war were ordered before Pearl Harbor and the Avenger, Helldiver, and Corsair were all in development. The US could wait until all those weapons were ready and could have gone to war with a 12:6 advantage in carriers or better.

Yammamoto knew better, but most of the rest of the Japanese government thought the US was morally weak because of the influence of women in the US. They believed that if they hit the US hard enough it would run away and let them be. They vastly underestimated the US. It is said Churchill on learning of Pearl Harbor said, "so we have won after all". Churchill understood the US better than Japan did. To Japan, it was a crushing blow like sinking the Russian fleet in 1906, to the US leadership, it was whacking the hornet's nest with a baseball bat.

Japan had victory disease. They had never really suffered a significant military defeat since industrializing. The Russo-Japanese war showed them they could take on another world power and win. What they didn't realize was they were taking on a continental power where it was weakest with their strongest arm.

In the end Germany and Japan wanted to be respected as world powers. There were a lot of other factors too, but continually being treated as second class powers when they had proven to have a lot of strengths contributed to the militarism.

Bill

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Post #: 29
RE: OT - alternative history - 5/13/2014 7:54:15 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Something James Burke said in his original Connections has sat with me for many years. He had a segment on what Germany's lot was with the rest of Europe in the late 1800s. Germany had pulled itself together from a collection of city states into a complete country. They led the world in some sciences and had one of the strongest economies in Europe, but in the words of Burke, "the rest of Europe treated them like they had collective BO."

WW I and II in Europe were driven at least in part by the fact that the leading powers of Europe, France and Britain didn't really think much of Germany. Europe didn't think much of the US either, but the US was so isolationist it didn't really care that much. After WW I President Wilson wanted to treat Germany and the other defeated powers with some respect, but the UK and France wouldn't hear of it, especially in the case of Germany who was economically enslaved for losing the war.

warspite1

Interesting debate, but I must say I cannot agree with this at all. Three things:

a) Why do people make such a big thing about the Versailles Treaty; how terrible it was, how one-sided, how punitive for the German people, but nothing is said about the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk? The latter was hardly a case of the Germans treating the Russian people with respect. That was greed, avarice and revenge on a scale even worse than Versailles.

b) In fairness to the French, The Germans had invaded and defeated the French in 1870 and then invaded them again 40-odd years later, and cost the French millions of dead in addition to the huge material losses. I think we should forgive the French politicians and public of the time for feeling more than a tad cheesed off with their Teutonic neighbour after such humiliation.

c) Did the UK and France really treat Germany like she had BO? I would be very interested to hear you expand upon that comment. Am reading the Scramble for Africa at present and according to that book, Bismarck was quite happy stirring the UK/French pot for Germany's benefit..... I suspect the emnity between France and the UK was far stronger than that between the UK and Germany. Germany was quite capable of looking after herself as she was fast becoming an industrial (and military) powerhouse - overtaking the UK in many key industrial measures before the turn of the century.

If Germany was treated like she had BO, I would say the cause was not a lack of respect, but that the UK and, especially France, respected and feared Germany in equal measure.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/13/2014 9:51:37 PM >


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