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Noob question - 5/16/2014 9:42:10 PM   
Spurius Evidens

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/9/2013
Status: offline 		Greetings Earthlings, have been mucking around with the Guadalcanal scenario for a while and have decided to finally have a crack at the big banana after loading it up a few times and staring overwhelmed at the map. So I have a question that I can't find the answer for atm. It's probably in the manual somewhere but my brain hurts and I feel the need to call for help. In the ground withdrawal screen for the Allies it lists a convoy of 30 merchant ships and a tanker carrying 180,000 supplies and 18,000 fuel,due to withdraw in 13 days with a 10 day delay also listed. So do I have to scrounge this stuff from on map and get it to Capetown and withdraw it from there? Is Karachi OK? What does the 10 day delay mean? Also the second convoy lists a cargo that looks like a mechanised brigade. Does this unit come from on map and head up to the Western desert for some fun with Rommel perhaps? If so how do I work out which one and where it is?

Or have I misunderstood this whole thingie? Any help would be appreciated, cheers!
Post #: 1
RE: Noob question - 5/16/2014 9:59:33 PM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

In the ground withdrawal screen for the Allies it lists a convoy of 30 merchant ships and a tanker carrying 180,000 supplies and 18,000 fuel,due to withdraw in 13 days with a 10 day delay also listed.

These convoy are off map convoy, they won't be on the map but you will get all the stuff in the base. This convoy arrived in 10 day, then unload and go back 3 day later. The supplies and fuel will be shown in the base then you need to move the supplies and fuel with you own task force on map.
These convoy are list like "convoy w/s ... convoy supplies" and are usually attached to the RN atlantic or something like that.

quote:

Also the second convoy lists a cargo that looks like a mechanised brigade

Some convoy carry equipments like tanks but it's only replacement not a brigade, use them as replacement for your active ground unit. Ground unit (brigade) are shown in the ground reinforcement list.

(in reply to Spurius Evidens)
Post #: 2
RE: Noob question - 5/16/2014 10:02:15 PM   
Spurius Evidens

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/9/2013
Status: offline 		Thank you kindly, so it's only withdrawal of the convoys that have run stuff down to Capetown then?

One more question please. I understand that I'll have to ferry the supplies and fuel that arrive at Capetown onto the map but what about the equipment that arrives on that second convoy? When that hits Capetown does it then go into my replacement pool?

< Message edited by Spurius Evidens -- 5/16/2014 11:17:08 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: Noob question - 5/16/2014 10:34:46 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		I'm not sure of this, BUT.... as these convoys are off map and disband a few days after arrival in an off map port, does the equipment they carry go directly into the pool OR do you as the player have to convoy it from the off board base (Capetown) to an on board port before those assets become available for replacements??????

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RE: Noob question - 5/16/2014 11:07:37 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		The fuel & supplies from these convoys is unloaded directly to the port, while equipment & devices are automatically added to the replacement pools. One should hoard these - IMO it's best to start the game w/ upgrades & replacements turned off globally for all land, sea & air units. While you will quickly build up stocks of support devices, & will generally have good production of US LCU devices, replacement devices for British, Oz, NZ, Indian & Commonwealth LCUs will always be at a premium. It's unwise to expend them on units that are destined to die early in the war! You'll likely lose all the Dutch & Filippino LCUs, but you'll still want to exert manual control over which units receive replacements.

Airframe production will gradually ramp up, but in the early war you'll want to manually control the distribution of replacements. And it can be quite maddening if a rear-area training group auto-upgrades to a 1st-line airframe, when groups at the front are in desperate need.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 5
RE: Noob question - 5/16/2014 11:39:43 PM   
Spurius Evidens

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/9/2013
Status: offline 		Thank you both. I'm taking my time with this as I like to pay attention to command structures and logistics. I must have spent 4 hours yesterday just doing China's first turn, working out who belonged to whom and all that. So many people, so little morale and supplies. Most of them are running for the hills. Once I've worked out how to run the game system with some finesse I'll have to go looking for a human opponent. In my experience, and I've been wargaming since the early '70s, game AIs are woeful. The game however is a delight for someone with an obsessive micromanaging streak and no concern for what the lumpenproletariat would call a life. Happy as a pig in poo. Cheers all!

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Post #: 6
RE: Noob question - 5/17/2014 1:46:58 AM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spurius Evidens

Thank you both. I'm taking my time with this as I like to pay attention to command structures and logistics. I must have spent 4 hours yesterday just doing China's first turn, working out who belonged to whom and all that. So many people, so little morale and supplies. Most of them are running for the hills. Once I've worked out how to run the game system with some finesse I'll have to go looking for a human opponent. In my experience, and I've been wargaming since the early '70s, game AIs are woeful. The game however is a delight for someone with an obsessive micromanaging streak and no concern for what the lumpenproletariat would call a life. Happy as a pig in poo. Cheers all!


Welcome to our addiction.

The AI can be challenging if you go along with the play book. If you deviate significantly from the historical scenario it will not react properly and give a less than optimum game. That being said, it is really important that you play a game or two against the AI before jumping in with both feet. Dont feel hesitant about going back and redoing turns to see different outcomes.

You can play this game for years and not master it ;]

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Post #: 7
RE: Noob question - 5/17/2014 7:03:14 AM   
Spurius Evidens

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/9/2013
Status: offline 		That may be so but since it's only turn 1 I'm already thinking of firing up scen 2 for a proper challenge. The AI's Pearl Harbour was laughable, I didn't even lose a BB.

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Post #: 8
RE: Noob question - 5/17/2014 7:07:44 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		There are many randoms in the code and the results of the PH attack can vary. During development one of the testers who thought the results were off ran the first turn many, many times. His BB losses varied from 0 to 7 with the average being something like 2.08.

You just got lucky in your first turn and the Japanese did less damage than historically.

Bill

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RE: Noob question - 5/17/2014 3:37:23 PM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spurius Evidens

That may be so but since it's only turn 1 I'm already thinking of firing up scen 2 for a proper challenge. The AI's Pearl Harbour was laughable, I didn't even lose a BB.


No it's because PH attack is totally unrealistic at all.
To get historical result, you have to change airfield to lvl 6, all US planes on mission for overstacking the airfield. Remove all ground units with flaks, even army division and air base.Put all the zeros on airfield attack, it should give the historical aircraft loss.
Remove the naval support and reduce the port lvl to lvl 4 too, put all the B5N on port attack and the D3A1 too. It should be more historical for the BB loss.

I said remove some ground unit but simply put them on reinforcement for the 8th december and add supply to Pearl for the port and airfield lvl loss. Pearl is well fill with engineers so the base will upgrade fastly, it represent the fact the allied where totally disorganised after PH.

< Message edited by Gaspote -- 5/17/2014 4:38:23 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Noob question - 5/17/2014 11:05:12 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I believe the air losses might average a bit less than historical, but if you run enough trails like our play tester did, you will likely find that the average for ship losses is very close to historical as the scenarios are.

Bill

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Post #: 11
RE: Noob question - 5/18/2014 12:50:40 PM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline 		From what I noticed, what really reduce the effect of the PH attack is the naval support it seems if a BB is hit, the fire and flooding is immediatly stopped by all the naval support of the port so it didn't make damage like it should.
For aircraft loss, during PH attack, US plane where in line on the airfield and totally unprotect so it was easy for the A6M to strafe them and the D3A1 destroy the remaining in hangar but it's not represent with the 7th surprise.

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Post #: 12
RE: Noob question - 5/18/2014 4:38:09 PM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 370
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline 		not always, i have had several ships burn in PH after the surprise attack. not all but several.

rms/pa

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the term is IDIOT.

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Post #: 13
RE: Noob question - 5/20/2014 3:50:10 PM   
Spurius Evidens

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/9/2013
Status: offline 		Well, as a follow up.......after spending an inordinately long time doing China's 1st and everybody else's 2nd move I've decided to blitz it along a bit to see what happens. You know, bang some stuff into the enemy to see what happens, and subsequently have done 10 weeks in about 4 days! OK, so I had the time free, and have been playing fast and loose, paying little attention to stuff that I wouldn't dare ignore were I playing a human opponent. It's now 21st of February and the situation is as follows:-

1) Malaya:- It took him until the day after Singapore actually fell (15th Feb) to push me out of Kuala Lumpur and I'm now preparing to stall him at Malacca. The situation was helped by me mauling his TFs at Kota Bharu on several occasions, leaving 27,000 Japanese to feed to fish one one particular night. In total perhaps 60,000 have gone into the water there over about 4-5 raids. The sharks think the Japanese taste like fish, we like chicken. Early on the air groups around Singapore did well prompting my propaganda team the make a stirring film, 'Buffalo-Wings of Glory', that serves to stir the emotions and sharpen the appetite, but they were eventually forced to stand down for lack of planes until one group upgraded to Trop Hurries and I flew some more there after loading them onto a CV, Indomitable I think. Air at Singapore is now hurting the KB planes that have been operating around there and may enable me to support supply operations into Singers from Palembang to ease my worries about running out of tea and crumpets. About 40K supplies in Singers so not desperate yet.

2) Having brought the KB down to the DEI over the last month the Japanese have left me a free hand around the Coral Sea and Solomons, and I've smashed an attempted invasion of Noumea/Suva with my carriers over the last couple of days with at least 20 AKs taken out. Previously to that I sunk a CVE near Midway that tried to interfere with resupply operations there and a CVL was sunk by a joint US/Aus/French surface group at Rabaul.

3) At Pegu I have him well and truly stymied atm by the reformed Indian and Burma divisions plus some armour and Burma command with the Australian Ist Corps turning up at Rangoon now. An Indian brigade and some Trop Hurries are at Port Blair.

4) Holding the line in the Philippines at Manila and Clark Field. It's been like that for about 6 weeks. Supply is a problem there. Doubt they'll last until April.

5) All quiet in China after withdrawing to defensible positions. Not in contact with the enemy anywhere. Perhaps he's lost me? Almost everybody got away from the coastal areas, only 1 weak corps cut off and killed. AVG and local pilots have forced the enemy into flying night raids. Any day attacks get butchered.

Overall I'm quite impressed with the AI given the enormous scale of the game, it attacks what it should reasonably competently but there are some questions. I've absolutely butchered his merchant fleet so I'm suspecting many of the rather ambitious (for the AI) attempts at conquest will be hard to hold fairly soon in the war. He has troops ashore at Port Moresby and Noumea (barely) but I hold the bases and with my carriers having just turned up I should be able to deal with that unless he redirects the KB there which will enable me to regain the initiative in Malaya/DEI and further delay him there.

At this point in time, 21st February 1942 the numbers are as follows:-

Japanese air losses:- 1538
Allied :- 786

Numbers lost/Points lost for ships:-

Japanese:- 164/1752
Allies :- 162/857

I'm feeling quietly confident.

Now some more questions please..........

1) Some of the air groups I'm having trouble withdrawing when required have a 'P' after the withdrawal date. Do they have to be withdrawn from Pearl Harbour perhaps? Some other issue?

2) Do the Chinese get aircraft replacements at any time? I've had to disband most of it to get 3 working fighter squadrons which have the best kill/death ratio of any air groups in the game, even better than the AVG. Haven't lost a plane yet for 66 kills, nor can they afford to.

Millions of other questions, none of which I can remember atm. Cheers, appreciate any input.

(in reply to rms1pa)
Post #: 14
RE: Noob question - 5/20/2014 5:00:04 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		P means permanent - the air unit will be gone forever when disbanded. Others will return at a later time.


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Post #: 15
RE: Noob question - 5/20/2014 5:28:27 PM   
nashvillen


Posts: 3836
Joined: 7/3/2006
From: Christiana, TN
Status: offline 		There you go again, LST, with that sig with all the lettering in the wrong place!

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Post #: 16
RE: Noob question - 5/20/2014 8:56:38 PM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

There are many randoms in the code and the results of the PH attack can vary. During development one of the testers who thought the results were off ran the first turn many, many times. His BB losses varied from 0 to 7 with the average being something like 2.08.

You just got lucky in your first turn and the Japanese did less damage than historically.

Bill


So I'm lucky everytime I play ? Playing the beta I never sink more than 1 BB, in my PBEM, not a single and they were allmost all operationnal in late 1942.

From all my test the result are always inferior to historical result, it's usually 1 or 2 BB that take a lot of damage and the others are damage for less than 200 day. Like I said it's using the beta so result probably differ in the stock.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 17
RE: Noob question - 5/20/2014 10:35:25 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		The test was done on a pre-release version. The changes since then may have altered things, but I've always seen relatively historical Pearl Harbor attacks with every version.

Bill

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WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

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Post #: 18
RE: Noob question - 5/20/2014 10:44:11 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spurius Evidens
Now some more questions please..........

1) Some of the air groups I'm having trouble withdrawing when required have a 'P' after the withdrawal date. Do they have to be withdrawn from Pearl Harbour perhaps? Some other issue?

2) Do the Chinese get aircraft replacements at any time? I've had to disband most of it to get 3 working fighter squadrons which have the best kill/death ratio of any air groups in the game, even better than the AVG. Haven't lost a plane yet for 66 kills, nor can they afford to.

Millions of other questions, none of which I can remember atm. Cheers, appreciate any input.


LST answered #1. For #2 the Chinese do eventually get Lend Lease aircraft, but it's a while. Until that point they will never have enough planes. I usually just train them until American planes start to arrive. Chinese initial experience is horribly low, but if you get the experience levels up into the 50s, they can hold their own against the Japanese with US aircraft.

You can look ahead and see what will be coming by looking at the Aircraft Replacement Pool off the Information Window. You can set the filters for just Chinese aircraft to see when they will be getting aircraft. The column for Replacement and Production is a bit confusing. Production is aircraft built in factories on the map. If the factory is captured (unlikely) or turned off, you will not get those planes. Replacement column aircraft will arrive no matter what.

The actual replacement/production rate will be a bit different than what is posted because of randoms each turn. Each turn the number is divided by 30 and used as a probability a plane will be produced. If the number is 60, the probability is 2 planes will be produced per turn, but it may only be 1 or it could be 3. If the number is 15, the probability is 50% every turn that a plane will be produced. If you get lucky "rolls" you may get 20 planes in a month, if you're unlucky, it may just be 10.

Bill

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(in reply to Spurius Evidens)
Post #: 19
RE: Noob question - 5/21/2014 1:34:19 AM   
Spurius Evidens

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/9/2013
Status: offline 		Nothing wrong with the Chinese fighters if you can use them where the Japanese player wants to strike past escort range of his fighters. I have 2 squadrons of I-15s and one of I-16s, having disbanded most of the rest to get those filled up. One of the I-15 squadrons isn't seeing any action but of the remaining ones the I-16s have 50 odd kills now and the I-15 30ish for no losses. Of course I wouldn't get those results from a competent human opponent.

I'm a bit perplexed with the AI in China. It hasn't really followed me into the hinterland in the south and I'm not even in contact with them further north where I've hardly pulled back at all. No drive towards Sian. No advance on Changsha. I have over 3000 AV there atm with other war areas covering it's flanks. Perhaps when the initial spring into the Pacific has calmed down they will try then but the Chinese are looking solid EXCEPT for supplies. That could get really bad if the Burma road is closed. Were I facing a capable human opponent I can't see I'd be having it so easy but who's complaining, at least for now.

Having mucked around with AI many, many moons ago when I was at Uni I know how fiendishly difficult it is to do well, particularly for a game of this scope, so it's about as good as it can be without US military funding.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 20
RE: Noob question - 5/21/2014 3:22:53 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spurius Evidens
I'm taking my time with this as I like to pay attention to command structures and logistics.

Logistics should be your primary concern. As best I can tell, there is virtually no advantage to giving any attention to command structure, as far as LCU are concerned. If you've got 2 Chinese Corps listed as subordinate to "35th Group Army", it matters not a whit if they are co-located or within command-radius of the "35th Group Army HQ". Any support-device HQ can give support to any LCU, regardless of chain-of-command or even Nationality difference.

AFAIK, there are only 3 instances where command structure is important:
- when you spend PP to change a 'semi-restricted' LCU or airgroup to an 'unrestricted' formation, the unit is then free to be shipped or flown to any base.
- when you spend PP to change a base-hex to a different (unrestricted) command - for example, if you change a base to ABDA command, 'restricted' airgroups (such as KNIL) already subordinate to ABDA can fly to that base.
- there might be some advantage for 'aircraft availability' if an Air-HQ unit is the same as or subordinate to its base-hex's command.

(in reply to Spurius Evidens)
Post #: 21
RE: Noob question - 5/21/2014 4:08:38 AM   
Spurius Evidens

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/9/2013
Status: offline 		That's a pity about appropriate command structure being irrelevant. Personally I'd prefer if incorrect HQs could give some support but not as much as the correct ones. As it stands atm there's little incentive to make an effort to use the correct ones. A relatively minor complaint given the plethora of fine gaming AE offers, but one that bugs this old time gamer a little. After all, it's taken me years to get to the stage where I'm good at that stuff only to find it doesn't matter here.

As for logistics, well that's obviously where this game is largely won or lost. My planes won't even land at a field unless they're serving steak and chips in the mess and have a soft serve ice cream machine, not to mention a Disneyland as well. That's for the US troops. For my Aussie brethren fighting it out in PNG and Burma an AK a day of beer per brigade will suffice. The Indian troops are just happy to be fed at all.

The truism about Aussie troops and beer is still true today. When the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq went down my brother was serving with the Brit 3rd Commando brigade. I got word through to him that I'd like a set of those 'Most wanted' playing cards issued to US troops in Iraq. Well they wanted a carton of beer for them and there was only one place to get it obviously. I can't remember what the Diggers wanted for the beer but in the end I got the playing cards. If he's ever captured he'll make a great scrounger, a la James Garner in the Great Escape.

Thanks for the input guys, perhaps we'll cross swords some time. Cheers, Richard.

< Message edited by Spurius Evidens -- 5/21/2014 5:10:26 AM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Noob question - 5/21/2014 5:18:28 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		hi SE,
I agree w/ your thoughts that 'correct' command-structure should play a bigger role, in combat-effectiveness, replacement rates, & TO/E upgrades. But there's already so much going on w/ logistics & replacement availability, & the slow accrual of PP - we've got enough to plan for, w/o the add'l burden of command-structure.

I'm down w/ you wrt beer. I've got a reference book about amphib ops in late-WWII, the Brit fleet-support train despatched to the Far East included a dedicated 'amenities' ship, Menestheus, which had an on-board 250-barrel per week brewery.

I had an idea a year or three back, that the Allied O/B for AE should include air-transportable 'USO' units of leggy Hollywood pin-up headliners that could arrive at a base & give an instant one-time morale-boost to any LCUs set to Rest/Training mode at that base. Of course, if the Jayne Mansfield unit got destroyed by weather effects or enemy action, the entire US fleet & LCU would suffer a morale-loss!

We need ever-more-sophisticated mod scenarios, that include ships like Menestheus, mebbe as a type of AR, that could boost a BB's crew-rating after a day or three, if they were disbanded in the same port.

(in reply to Spurius Evidens)
Post #: 23
RE: Noob question - 5/21/2014 5:31:37 AM   
Spurius Evidens

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/9/2013
Status: offline 		You could model USO shows by training transport planes for an 'Entertainment' skill and then 'Bomb' your own troops? Drop some Bob Hopes on them.

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 24
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