Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue - 5/28/2014 7:49:38 AM

urtel

Posts: 125
Joined: 9/6/2013
Status: offline

Idea is pretty simple, every ship outside of port get small amount of system damage representing crew fatigue.
On example all small ships(escorts) get on average every second day 1 sys dmg, that give us in one month 15 system will then force them to sit in port up to 7 days before next sail.
If you force ships to continue with moderate-high system dmg u risk they do bad in combat which is exactly what fatigue crew will do..

Capital ships will get this dmg on slower tempo, on example 1 point in 3 or 5 days representing better live conditions on them...

Best solution will be we have some table with ship classes and factor which apply to that class, that table can be changed by moders so they can fine tune system..
table example
Class #Days
BB 5
CV 5
DD 2
xAK 3
...

where column days represent number of days ship of that class if it is out of port before 1 point of dmg on average will be add to ship .

This will slow game tempo and no need for artificial cargo reduce, on example every convoy SF - PH will need to rest 7 days before next run. Also all submarines will need to go back to port after month-two and they will then sit in ports for at last 10 days.

Which all sound more realistic than current system...

Also we can make this as option in properties so it can be turn on/off at any time in game.

PS
if you think that is hard to programme, it is not, basic formula is :
(max = 10 days)
factor = round(10 / #days)
sysdmg = round(rnd(10)/factor) = every 2nd day(#days = 2)
sysdmg = round(rnd(10)/factor) = every 3rd day(#days = 3)
sysdmg = round(rnd(10)/factor) = every 5th day(#days = 5)

and you can set if days = 0 then sysdmg = 0 so some class not be affect at all;

Post #: 1

RE: Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue - 5/28/2014 8:09:49 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

In the last year and a half of the war the US fast carriers were at sea for months at a time with only a week or two in port before going out again (unless they received damage from enemy action or in one case a typhoon). With this model, the fast carriers would be unable to operate aircraft after a few months.

The time at sea was very rough on the crews from top to bottom. John S McCain (the current senator's grand father) was a carrier task force commander and he died of exhaustion shortly after the war ended. However the carriers kept operating at very high efficiency right up to the end.

I also think the turnaround time for cargo ships was less than 7 days in port. I'm not sure what the turnaround time on subs was. It may have been a bit longer.

The game engine also already applies wear and tear system damage on ships at sea. Ships that are kept operating will end up accumulating damage over time, though not as steep as your formula.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to urtel)

Post #: 2

RE: Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue - 5/28/2014 11:38:46 AM

spence

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

Time at sea is mostly boring except during times of combat action or other all hands evolutions. One may not ever get the opportunity to completely let go but there is time for crew rest. Maintenance suffers during times of "Port and Starboard (6 hour watches) but that is already accounted for by the model.

For the most part combat/all hands evolutions don't last all that long. I do remember something out of a USN ASW course saying that the surface ship has an advantage over the submarine by being able to prosecute a contact with only part of its crew (Condition I ASW) whereas pretty much all of the submarine crew is involved all of the time when under attack.

The ships that I served on in the USCG were WWII era ASW ships (sister ships to the Taney that is in the game) - artifacts of that service were to be found in various places about the ship - like the "Watch, Quarter and Station Bill", blueprints in DC Central (showed there were about 180 racks for a crew of 308: "hot-racking" was the norm for all E-5 and below I guess) and a scrapbook of photos I found behind a locker that broke loose from the bulkhead in a storm. By the 1970s the ASW gear had been removed and the crew much much reduced to around 125 officers and men. Nothing much had been automated in the interim since WW2. It still took most of the Deck Force to conduct Law Enforcement Boardings (the daily routine) and Search/Rescue Missions were often added to the end of the routine stuff but crew fatigue for the larger ships was never a factor in efficiency.

In a later assignment I did accompany an 82 foot patrol boat on a rescue case in moderately bad weather. I came back after only about 8 hours with black and blue marks all over my body from bouncing off stuff due to the "ships" pounding on the waves. I imagine sleeping under those conditions might have been close to impossible making crew fatigue a factor in the performance of a small combatant. But then again it might be perilous to make a judgement on what a real sailor can accomplish.

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 3

RE: Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue - 5/28/2014 12:34:13 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

USN subs had 3-4 weeks of R&R after a patrol. A relief crew took the boat over (in legal terms) and did the refit and repairs. The real crew did provisioning.

This was in 1942-1943. I believe once subs began basing out of forward bases such as Saipan the between patrol time lessened.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 4

RE: Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue - 5/28/2014 11:57:16 PM

msieving1

Posts: 526
Joined: 3/23/2007
From: Missouri
Status: offline

From the Introduction to US Submarine Losses World War II

quote:

Submarine crews, upon their return from a war patrol, were transferred to a Rest and Recuperation Camp for a period of two weeks while their submarine was being refitted by a relief crew. During this two week period the regular crew had no official duties to perform other than to rest and relax and divorce their minds from all thoughts of war and combat. ... Immediately preceding departure upon subsequent patrols, the submarine was given an intensive refresher training period, lasting from four to eight days. Training kept pace with enemy antisubmarine measures, new training methods being introduced to counter the latest trends in enemy offensive or defensive measures.

_____________________________

-- Mark Sieving

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 5

RE: Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue - 5/30/2014 9:59:43 AM

urtel

Posts: 125
Joined: 9/6/2013
Status: offline

guys i m not say mine numbers are ok, that table can be part of database like every other param in game so it can be fine tune by editor, from no dmg at all to alot dmg in short time...

basic idea is to slow game tempo, by simulating one more real life factor, and you need to count that this system will create additional mess in port/repair system which will then even more slow game, so on end we can have effect similar to 30% cargo reduce but without that unrealistic cargo reduce...

not that i have anything against cargo reduce, with current system that is best way to slow game tempo and put it closer to real life situation...
i m playing DBB-C and it is good solution but we can always make it better, or at last try..

(in reply to msieving1)

Post #: 6

RE: Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue - 5/30/2014 4:02:09 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: urtel

guys i m not say mine numbers are ok, that table can be part of database like every other param in game so it can be fine tune by editor, from no dmg at all to alot dmg in short time...

basic idea is to slow game tempo, by simulating one more real life factor, and you need to count that this system will create additional mess in port/repair system which will then even more slow game, so on end we can have effect similar to 30% cargo reduce but without that unrealistic cargo reduce...

not that i have anything against cargo reduce, with current system that is best way to slow game tempo and put it closer to real life situation...
i m playing DBB-C and it is good solution but we can always make it better, or at last try..

I think you are completely off the mark. The 30% cargo reduction in DBB-C has nothing to do with crew fatigue. If you don't want the cargo reduction then play DBB-B, which is exactly the same thing but without the cargo reduction.

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to urtel)

Post #: 7

RE: Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue - 5/30/2014 4:36:22 PM

jmalter

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline

urtel, I think you're on to something here.

IMO the game's gradual accrual of damage-points for ships at sea is far too low, & the incidence of random damage is far too low.

Actual damage to ships was far more frequent - system engine failures, groundings, collisions at sea & while docking. NTM catastrophic incidents, such as when BB Mutsu suddenly disapparated.

other things on my list:
- short-endurance escorts auto-refueling at sea from the AK/TK ships they escort, when training / equipment availablity was unlikely.
- ability of SS to remain at sea far longer than their food stores would allow, then RTB to rearm / refuel & immediately return to their patrol-zone.
- lack of need for all ships (especially heavy combatants) to return for yard-time to repair system / engine degradation.
- near-total immunity of training airgroups to loss of airframes & pilots to accident - low-Exp pilots should be subject to heavy attrition during traing, & similar losses should occur to operational airgroups at all forward airbases, increased for smaller-size bases.
- ship crews gain experience over time, but are never decreased. I would think that if a ship took heavy damage in a fight, its crew should suffer degradation due to casualties.

I love this game, & while I try to play it to maximize the abilities that it gives me, it doesn't throw me enough random-damage curves, or adequately model the operational degradation that all units would suffer.

(in reply to urtel)

Post #: 8

RE: Idea - how to model ship crew fatigue - 5/30/2014 10:42:06 PM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

When ops losses were closer to reality, players howled with complaints, so they were toned down to what they are now.

I believe escorts regularly refueled from the ships they were escorting. Many of the Atlantic escorts didn't have the range to make it all the way across the Atlantic, or if they did, they would be breathing fumes when they got there.

SSs should stand down after a patrol for a while, though they might do back to back patrols in an emergency.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 9