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Updated manual - 5/31/2014 3:24:46 AM   
Dannyp19

 

Posts: 186
Joined: 10/20/2013
Status: offline 		I hate to bring this up. But is there a updated manual in the works ? I'm starting to get lost with the rapid development of this fine sim/game.
Post #: 1
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 5:49:20 AM   
Tomcat84

 

Posts: 1952
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		The devs are aware if the fact that all their improvements are overtaking the manual and I do believe they are working on a manual update. But of course they are keeping themselves very busy with sim updates so not sure what the eta is.

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Post #: 2
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 1:06:18 PM   
tombo

 

Posts: 356
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		..the DEVs have added so many great updates/additions i think the manual revision is important now. I always seem to reference the build text now. Info being in one place would be great for a complex game like this. Check WiTE supplement manual approach..it shows changes in red. Very helpful.

cheers.

(in reply to Tomcat84)
Post #: 3
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 3:20:13 PM   
Werewolf13

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		It would be appropriate to hear from the Devs themselves.

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Post #: 4
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 3:34:28 PM   
Rudd

 

Posts: 1501
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		Maybe should be community led project, for now, using the info from the build posts, like Tomcat said, we know the devs are busy

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Post #: 5
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 3:58:15 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		I'm sure you guys would write a manual that is better than the dev's

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Post #: 6
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 4:51:25 PM   
Werewolf13

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

I'm sure you guys would write a manual that is better than the dev's


Maybe...

But as much as I hate to say it - A $79 piece of software should have a professional level manual written by the software experts and the experts are the developers.


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Post #: 7
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 5:23:25 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326
quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

I'm sure you guys would write a manual that is better than the dev's


Maybe...

But as much as I hate to say it - A $79 piece of software should have a professional level manual written by the software experts and the experts are the developers.


Command includes a 142-page manual (incl. a printer-friendly version available on this forum) which comprehensively explains how to use the program in its v1.00 version.

(To clarify: The manual describes _how_ to use the program to do X. Explaining _why_ to do X (e.g. why a jammer can blind a fire-control radar) is mostly out of the scope of the manual and is the province of "Strategy Guide"-style documentation, something that the dev team may do in the future but is under no obligation of providing. There are a million books, websites and other resources out there on modern air and naval ops & tech stuff. Pick one.)

The issue of post-v1.00 additions/changes documentation has been acknowledged by the developers and a comprehensive "Manual Addendum" section is currently being prepared. As an interim measure, we have included a "welcome, please read this first" thread for first-time users, chock-full of links to tutorials, videos, update release notes etc.

.

.

.

And since the tactic of dropping a "For [the price I paid] this game should have [my pet peeve]" line apparently never gets old, I will say this (to everyone, not specifically you): Go ahead and compare our _total package_ with anything from Microsoft, Adobe or any other company that charges you to use their software. If you don't think we measure up, feel free to request a refund from our publisher. We are in the middle of a thousand things at once, and trying to sting us into giving priority to your request is not the best way to show your support.

Thank you.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 5/31/2014 6:39:29 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 5:56:59 PM   
Werewolf13

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

And since the tactic of dropping a "For [the price I paid] this game should have [my pet peeve]" line apparently never gets old, I will say this (to everyone, not specifically you): Go ahead and compare our _total package_ with anything from Microsoft, Adobe or any other company that charges you to use their software. If you don't think we measure up, feel free to request a refund from our publisher. Trying to sting us into giving priority to your request will NOT get you anywhere and doing this repeatedly is a great way to ensure your request (and future ones) ends up on the far end of the queue.


Sunburn's mailbox is full - so I've got no choice but to post this here. Fanbois go nuts!

Ya know what? $79 is up there in the top .2% of prices demanded for entertainment software. I know of only 3 that are the same or higher and 2 of 'em are Matrix products (one - WIP-AE is worth every penny and World in Flames is working real, real hard to get there). And though I am fully aware that price and value don't often go together one expects out the gate that it should. CMNAO doesn't make the grade.

SO!

Who do I ask for my refund? Really? Who?

Because - I've tried for a while to like CMNAO and work within its limitations. Really - I have but with the exception of the data base it comes with it hasn't lived up to the hype.

Because all I can see that I received for my $79 was a big data base, a scenario editor with limited function that can't hold a candle to Harpoon's editor (and that includes Harpoon Classic which is what almost 20 years old) and editors in games like Dangerous Waters, Sub Command, Fleet Command, Falcon 4, Steelbeasts, Combat Mission, TOAW (all versions) and even <cough> DCS World. In addition it is the only game installed on my PC out of over 90 that I can count on to freeze up at least once a session.

So seriously - who do I ask for a refund? As soon as I get it CMNAO will go straight into the trash bin where it belongs.

OH! And you seriously want to compare CMNAO and what it provides to what the products from MS or Adobe provide? Seriously - you think you guys measure up to Microsoft - the software company that literally changed the world of computing or Adobe who set the standard for computer document handling. Man! That is the epitomy of arrogance.

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Post #: 9
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 6:23:42 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you for sharing you opinion with us.

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Post #: 10
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 6:27:23 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		If you want a refund you can go to Matrix etc. Let me know if you run into any trouble with it.

We do appreciate the input and understand that not everybody will like our game.

Mike


< Message edited by mikmyk -- 5/31/2014 7:38:19 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 6:41:31 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I got a big manual with mine. The devs didn't have to do any updates other than fixes. Would this knucklehead prefer that the devs do no more add on features until the manual is updated. Let's put that on the poll see how petty and shortsighted customers really are.

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Post #: 12
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 6:42:37 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		And let's see if this is just blustering...take a snapshot of the refund and post so we can if you follow through.

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Post #: 13
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 6:50:21 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		My suggestion for the devs is to roll back all additional features into a special update that only has fixes from 1.00 features in it. That people upset about the manual will have one aligned with the version they bought. The rest of us can keep getting updates. The people who want a perfectly aligned manual will now have exactly what they paid for.

Frankly, I will never reference the manual again. The most helpful thing would just be to organize the change logs into slightly more detailed categories.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 14
RE: Updated manual - 5/31/2014 11:57:35 PM   
goodwoodrw


Posts: 2661
Joined: 2/14/2005
Status: offline 		Is Werewolf playing the same game I've been playing for the past 12 months?

< Message edited by BASB -- 6/1/2014 2:10:34 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 12:03:40 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		btw, the official 1.03 release lists and describes all the significant additions. I would suggest any really struggling with understanding the new features added in builds stop installing them and stick to official releases.

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Post #: 16
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 12:48:52 AM   
Werewolf13

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

And let's see if this is just blustering...take a snapshot of the refund and post so we can if you follow through.


hardly Bluster. The ticket has been turned in. We'll see if they grant a refund.

quote:

We have received your issue and we will work on it as soon as possible.


Please note, you can update your support issues at the following URL:
http://www.matrixgames.com/support/issues.asp

To check the status of your issue, please visit the folowing URL:
http://www.matrixgames.com/support/issue.asp?idXXXXX



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(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 17
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 1:32:28 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Awesome...see you later.

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Post #: 18
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 5:49:49 AM   
navwarcol

 

Posts: 637
Joined: 12/2/2009
Status: offline 		I really wanted to say that mine, on a very "middle" system, has never crashed once, and I actually play giant scenarios even.... I can get some where it runs slowly, but those are my own thing, because of just seeing how much of the world I can model into one scenario lol... but not one crash yet, in ... over 500 times of cranking this baby up..

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Post #: 19
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 7:09:58 AM   
Grackle

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 9/2/2007
Status: offline 		Werewolf,



In my opinion. this is the most accurate and realistic modern naval simulation yet (and likely ever to be produced). It has no peer. I have 27 years of experience in naval warfare (retired USN CAPT) and I doubt you will find anyone of equal experience who would disagree. This game is far more stable than it was on release (and it was more stable than H2 or H1 on delivery) It it has much more additional, free content than one would expect in a game life cycle for any game. It gets more updates in a week than H3 ANW would get in a year. The team is always pushing the limits to make it better (and this introduces new issues in any complex game). New bugs come and get crushed, and the game constantly improves. I have never seen a development team this dedicated- ever.

I have watched for many years the hard work and the long-suffering dedication of the developers. Not everyone can appreciate this game. This game requires a significant investment of intellectual and temporal capital, and is not for everyone. Given the demands of daily life, I cannot dedicate the time to it I would like. If its not for you, that's great - you are probably one of those folks it is NOT aimed at. It is a niche game. However, if you really want to understand modern air or naval warfare, this is your only choice as a simulation. It's head and shoulders above the rest. In my opinion, any other modern naval game is a waste of your precious time. This game can give you understanding of current issues in the South and East China Seas, Crimea and Syria. It can trace the development of modern naval warfare since the Second World War. I think CMANO is the gold standard in realism and customer service. Each person is entitled to their view, but I have never seen a better product or better support and wanted to add a balancing viewpoint.

Mark







< Message edited by markadmiral -- 6/1/2014 8:15:57 AM >

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Post #: 20
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 11:26:38 AM   
DirtyFred


Posts: 99
Joined: 5/22/2014
Status: offline 		what is this whining about a proper manual? there are a LOT of resources at hand - and CMANO is the best naval sim ever done - worth more then the price matrix is asking - trust me - i played all of harpoon, fleet command, naval war arctic circle, and many many more (even red storm on C64)

baloogans vids and website, this forum, the wiki's, there are even dedicated websites to some nations air forces, navies, armies and platforms - use google and the forums available to naval simmers - get involved

the manual shipped with CMANO is to start out - later if you're advanced enough - there is much more in the depth of the "internet sea" ...

so get off the devs back with kindergarden issues and let them continue the best naval sim ever



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Post #: 21
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 12:07:20 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Kind of funny comparing that WitP-AE "is worth every penny" (well, it is) and it's manual has not been updated since release in 2004, IIRC (?)

So, putting into perspective that Command MANO has had 107 updated versions under a year, it's bit funny complaint. AE is also one game with phenomenal (albeit volunteer) support, but not as quick/responsive as with Command.

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Post #: 22
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 12:56:00 PM   
cuthbo2001

 

Posts: 103
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		Let me throw this in the mix. Agreed the feedback and sheer development pace is second to none. put yourself in the shoes of someone buying the game. Does the manual reflect the current state of affairs, indeed can it hope to given the current rate of changes? I can't but help think that as a community we can help out here , perhaps keeping an easy to use reference source to fill in the important changes that have occurred from the time of manual release to present iteration. It could be perhaps hosted on baloogan's site which seems to be very popular and a stopping off point for people getting into the game.
As for crashes etc. I have had a few , but simply do not recognise the picture that is being painted of an unfinished crash prone program.

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Post #: 23
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 1:41:24 PM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		I have had a crash a day I have used the program since I started.

I've made a button pad with the TouchControl app on an iPad to improve controls - what a difference!! Way easier to use. The new hotkeys are a help, but more are needed. With TouchControl, no more hotkeys are needed, actually. Just make your own. Its great!

I spend 10 times the time searching to do things than playing. I've been at it for 1-2 weeks, and I still feel I am nowhere. I love the detail. I love geography and military history. I've been a wargamer for 20 years. But to hunt down every little bit of information is quite tedious. I agree that documentation is not necessary a priority, but reference tables ARE!! I am suggesting a table of missiles and their ranges and targets, organized by tracking systems. Then a table of tracking systems, with explanations of how to use them. This is a serious gap that is virtually impossible to sort out without help. Ballogan helped me, but no one else did. Maybe no one else actually understands it enough to be able to explain it.

I'm not sure what other tables would be useful, but Missiles, and Delivery Systems is truly a must. I con't see it taking too long to do by someone who actually knows this stuff…

btw, I am totally frustrated too, and will likely stop using the program soon.

(in reply to cuthbo2001)
Post #: 24
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 1:57:55 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		If you don't update beyond the official 1.03, the manual is up to date and has a supplement for 1.03. If you want more than that, don't install the beta builds.

As to manuals...note the previous reference to BFC. They have almost no documentation beyond the basics. There is no real reference to the details of the units represented in the game. The devs basically told people to use google.

The really bizarre part is the number of people coming in asking questions that are answered in the manual. It shows you that haters will just hate.

(in reply to HailRider)
Post #: 25
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 2:12:27 PM   
HailRider

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 5/11/2014
Status: offline 		Its not a matter of hate, from my part. It is a matter of playability for new, non seasoned, players. If you don't care about us new players, offer a refund, and I will be on my way. So will all the new players.

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Post #: 26
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 2:24:26 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		If you want refund, you simply contact Matrix helpdesk. Sorry that the game was not for you, despite all help you were given.

To add, about EVERY seasoned wargamer knows that almost every manual lacks badly behind computer game (except in board games, usually). If that is some sort of surprise, well, I guess then not seasoned enough. It's just how things are and that's why there is forum and chatroom to help people.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 6/1/2014 3:28:12 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 2:36:24 PM   
cuthbo2001

 

Posts: 103
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		I think it would be simplistic to categorise this as "haters" complaining and dismiss user difficulties. CMANO is a complex game and we should be mindful of helping and welcoming newcomers to the game. theWood1 point taken about 1.03 , but I still think that some organised community help would bridge the gap whilst developers get a chance to come up for breath and get around to manual addendums. I think most of us would agree that we would prefer the developers spending their time on improvements and bug squashing

(in reply to HailRider)
Post #: 28
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 2:39:39 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HailRider

Its not a matter of hate, from my part. It is a matter of playability for new, non seasoned, players. If you don't care about us new players, offer a refund, and I will be on my way. So will all the new players.


You're always welcome to pursue a refund We do feel though we have a great product and a great relationship with our player base and hope you will stick around.

The development team has been reading and picking up on whats important and I think the group as a whole has been responsive. At the end of the day though it is up to you.

In terms of tables they're available on Baloogan's site as well as the database viewer in game. Not many other games have such a good synergy between community and developer. We feel its important to maintain that.

We're still in beta (as the build string specifies) and will put something together by the official release. Banging on us now for this is pre-emptive as we're still adding stuff. We do see though it is important to players and are working on addressing it.

Thanks!

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 6/1/2014 3:41:44 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Updated manual - 6/1/2014 2:45:38 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		How much more organized from a community perspective can you get than what Boolagan and others have done. You see this in every complex wargame. People complaining about documentation. Command is better than a lot of them out there.

The manual and its supplement have kept up with development. If you don't like how beta documentation is done...don't update with betas. Use official only. I don't typically dismiss people having difficulties, but when someone uses Harpoon as a benchmark for documentation and another threatens to get a refund over it, I have to call out people for either being lazy or having skewed expectations.

I hate losing players in the community, but I hate seeing devs wasting time addressing something like this when there are so many resources available that someone won't take advantage of. Command comes with a good manual, it has significant commitment from devs, and it has a community that has provided incredible resources for learning. But if someone wants to throw away $80 and think everything is going to be spoon fedfor a game this complex, I would rather they get a refund.

(in reply to cuthbo2001)
Post #: 30
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